only ranged FF reflective?

[RandomDude]

i agree with jacko

playing on a server with reflective damage does help you to improve but ultimately it's just silly

a practice server with ff on could possibly be useful for the above reason but for normal gameplay no way

[Tot.]

I might be taking this a little too personally but ranged friendly fire is normally the fault of the person who was hit by it

Lol, when will you archers learn not to shoot into melee? Especially when you're not godly aimer and do hit teammates. When I get struck by friendly arrow while in combat usually after the fight I just come up to the archer and explain to him how it feels like. With steel, that is.

Nothing is more fucking infuriating than ranged twats thinking they're entitled to screwing into every fight and going for every kill they have slightest chance of making. Even cav.

Generally reflective FF is good idea, for ranged its a great idea, people might learn to shoot properly finally. The most annoying part is that its one sided, archer hardly ever will be hit by friendly fire.

[Phazey]

... For example, if I shot into melee where I hit an allied peasant, with no reflective, i'd kill the poor bastard and have more of a chance of taking out the enemy with a sorry shortly followed...
if it was reflective, it would have killed me, the peasant would have stood no chance ...

Maybe you don't like the 'sound' of this argument, but it's a very valid point. You try to help team mates and you have to take calculated risks sometimes.

Helping your team mates as an archer means you might sometimes shoot your team mate by accident. Both the enemy and the team mate you are trying to save are moving erratically and even though you try your best to take safe shots, sometimes you just fail.

Same goes for cavalry players. You try and bump and bump-slash enemies engaged in melee. This works very well, but sometimes you screw up the timing or a team mate doesn't see you coming and 'jumps' under your horse, gets bumped and dies.

And the same goes for infantry. Sometimes, when you're trying to save a team mate, you accidentally hit that team mate instead. I'm sure it's happened.

Any form of reflective damage breaks this part of the game.

Besides, the person causing the team kill is often punished enough. The shame of causing the team kill, the occasional angry team mate, having to say sorry and a decrease in the chance to win that round, possibly even losing a multiplier because of that.

Team kills happen. You have to take calculated risks in this game. Asking for reflective damage on ranged only is biased and a silly fix for a problem that does not exist.

I'm against all forms of reflective damage. Punishment for occasional accidental team kills is lame. Losing a team mate is punishment enough.

The problem with this argument that's being put forth here, i think, is the implication that the ranged team kills are intentional or at least the ranged players don't care. He is wrong. It sucks to shoot a team mate.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Lol, when will you archers learn not to shoot into melee? Especially when you're not godly aimer and do hit teammates. When I get struck by friendly arrow while in combat usually after the fight I just come up to the archer and explain to him how it feels like. With steel, that is.

Nothing is more fucking infuriating than ranged twats thinking they're entitled to screwing into every fight and going for every kill they have slightest chance of making. Even cav.

Cry moar?

When will you melee guys learn how to swing without hitting all teammates around?


Nothing is more frustrating than a killhorny guy with a big sword rushing into every fight, hitting around blindly and killing/hurting his teammates.

[Tot.]

Nothing is more frustrating than a killhorny guy with a big sword rushing into every fight, hitting around blindly and killing/hurting his teammates.

First of all, an archer will never know how its like to have a super close fight and lose because struck by an arrow because he's just sitting on the hill and shooting.

Secondly, being teamhit by melee is the risk of going into clusterfuck with teammates, often it's not fighers choice that he accidentally hits teammate. Ranged newbies on the other hand always make a conscious decision to shoot into melee. What you can never compensate for while fighting is that you might be hit by an arrow shot by some dumbass Legolas-wannabie and who just can't sit tight and wait for opportunity/take care of enemy ranged or cav instead of ruining melee fights for his teammates.

[Tennenoth]

Maybe you don't like the 'sound' of this argument, but it's a very valid point. You try to help team mates and you have to take calculated risks sometimes.

Helping your team mates as an archer means you might sometimes shoot your team mate by accident. Both the enemy and the team mate you are trying to save are moving erratically and even though you try your best to take safe shots, sometimes you just fail.

Same goes for cavalry players. You try and bump and bump-slash enemies engaged in melee. This works very well, but sometimes you screw up the timing or a team mate doesn't see you coming and 'jumps' under your horse, gets bumped and dies.

And the same goes for infantry. Sometimes, when you're trying to save a team mate, you accidentally hit that team mate instead. I'm sure it's happened.

Any form of reflective damage breaks this part of the game.

Besides, the person causing the team kill is often punished enough. The shame of causing the team kill, the occasional angry team mate, having to say sorry and a decrease in the chance to win that round, possibly even losing a multiplier because of that.

Team kills happen. You have to take calculated risks in this game. Asking for reflective damage on ranged only is biased and a silly fix for a problem that does not exist.

I'm against all forms of reflective damage. Punishment for occasional accidental team kills is lame. Losing a team mate is punishment enough.

The problem with this argument that's being put forth here, i think, is the implication that the ranged team kills are intentional or at least the ranged players don't care. He is wrong. It sucks to shoot a team mate.

This is practically all that is needed to know to state that reflective damage is no good. I stand by Phazh's comments like a fanboi on this one, a much clearer and better way of saying what I wanted to say and failed to do.

First of all, an archer will never know how its like to have a super close fight and lose because struck by an arrow because he's just sitting on the hill and shooting.

Secondly, being teamhit by melee is the risk of going into clusterfuck with teammates, often it's not fighers choice that he accidentally hits teammate. Ranged newbies on the other hand always make a conscious decision to shoot into melee. What you can never compensate for while fighting is that you might be hit by an arrow shot by some dumbass Legolas-wannabie and who just can't sit tight and wait for opportunity/take care of enemy ranged or cav instead of ruining melee fights for his teammates.

Give it a rest Tot. Everyone makes mistakes, whether or not it's an archer or a melee. I know how it feels to lose a fight because a ranged player has hit me but I just rage and get on with my life, rather than, if I survive, teamattacking the offender. As an admin I condemn this attitude, no one has the right to do that, i've been teamattacked by someone who thought I shot them before, both when I was a normal player and now that I am an admin, the main word there being "thought", in fact I didn't and that person ruined my game for something that I didn't do.

Don't ever think that you have a right to do such a thing. Their mistake has already cost them enough and if they don't have the common courtesy to say sorry then you have a right to scream and shout but not to attack them. Most decent players, including melee will apologise for a teamhit, even if the bloody thing only bounced and did no damage but the select few who feel they have some god given right to screw someone else over are on dodgy ground with me and i'm sure most of the admin populace...


Now shall we get this thread back onto discussing the reasons for and against having ranged friendly fire reflected back?

[MrShine]

Reflective damage is silly.  It looks silly, it feels awful, and

(click to show/hide)

it has no grounds in reality.

An archer shooting into a crowd and instantly keeling over dead.  A horseman bumping a nearby peasant and toppling off his horse, dead.  A thrower chucking a throwing lance, instantly dying, while the friendly target now has a lance sticking out of his ass.

These are the things we will see if reflective damage is implemented, and it's just dumb.  Dumb as hell.

Friendly fire is a GOOD feature in this game.  It demands teamwork and proper positioning to be effective.  It can't be abused as easily as reflective damage can, and when it is abused it can be easily regulated by administrators.  And for every time Tot or other melee players get hit by a friendly arrow (which I agree is mega frustrating) there is another time a good archer was able to disrupt the enemy's block with a successful hit that probably went unnoticed.

[Tot.]

The problem is ranged will never have the incentive to get better and stop shooting into melee because they are not being punished for it.

[Tydeus]

Reflective damage for everyone. In one stroke you completely remove the concept of team killing.

[MrShine]

The problem is ranged will never have the incentive to get better and stop shooting into melee because they are not being punished for it.

Embarrassment, -1 to kill on board (embarrassment), gaining a bad reputation (embarrassment), and a lower chance to win the round through friendly damage/kill (xp/gold incentive).

Nope, no punishment at all.

Reflective damage for everyone. In one stroke you completely remove the concept of team killing.

I disagree, team killing will still occur through griefing or poorly positioned teammates (example, headshotting a friendly who runs right in front of me when I'm obviously aiming at someone = me dying instantly).   Griefing will still have its place, it will just be harder for admins to enforce since it is much easier to ban someone for team wounding than it is to ban someone for "intentionally" getting in the way of someone's swings/projectiles/horse.

[Tot.]

Most archers dont even care since a) the person shot cant really identify which of the ranged shot him b) it rarely kills the victim. In melee you at least know which idiot hit you, anonymous arrow in the back doesnt tell much but screws everything. Ranged just gets away with it.

[Tennenoth]

Reflective damage for everyone. In one stroke you completely remove the concept of team killing.

To add to what MrShine rightly said, it gives admins a harder job. It increases the amount of stuff people can do to grief other players. To quote myself:

EDIT: That's what admins are there for, to punish the idiots who think it's ok to teamattack/kill intentionally.
Just to rid people of getting hit by archery fire because of a miss-shot would lead to mass griefing of people intentionally jumping in the way of arrows in order to cause the firing archer harm. That's another negative on reflective damage of any kind, it would increase the work load of admins for one thing and it would increase the amount of griefing, and instead of having Teamwounding/Teamkilling collectively being the main banning, it would have griefing.

I notice you're an NA admin, I don't have an accurate picture of what it is like over in NA but are you sure you want more people being able to exploit something to grief other players. This one will be harder to find out if this happens since you've not go a "So-in-so tk'd so-in-so" you've got "Headshot so-in-so, Omg admin! So-in-so intentionally jumped in the way and caused me to kill myself!" So much easier to identify who killed who, and whether or not it was an accident.

[MrShine]

b) it rarely kills the victim. In melee you at least know which idiot hit you, anonymous arrow in the back doesnt tell much but screws everything. Ranged just gets away with it.

Hmm good point.  I think the only logical solution to this is to buff ranged so they 1 shot kill everything.  Then it will be easier to tell who tk'd you!

[hippy_with_a_scimi]

I'm for reflective damage , thinking its a tuffer job for admins to track on is silly imo , will i kill myself sometimes with reflective damage ? of course
 but its mostly my own fault ,

I know some tin cans would cry to hit a peasant by mistake and die  nullifing their precious crutch  , people would learn WAY MORE not to sideswing all over the place if they die, spare me the guy who jump and you get killed in the process... here is a great tip for that :

Tap the freaking right click and dont swing like you are some berserker , when 4 of your guys are going for 1 fighter , dont join the fray !

 I have to ask archers not to help me in a melee fight because im imprevisible in my movements...  usually my rule for that is :

More than 3 on me then you can shoot as much as you want ,

3 or lower i dont need your fucking help! , thank you   , i enjoy being surrounded its easier to kill when people are lowering their defense

[Tennenoth]

I'm for reflective damage , thinking its a tuffer job for admins to track on is silly imo , will i kill myself sometimes with reflective damage ? of course
 but its mostly my own fault ,

I know some tin cans would cry to hit a peasant by mistake and die  nullifing their precious crutch  , people would learn WAY MORE not to sideswing all over the place if they die, spare me the guy who jump and you get killed in the process... here is a great tip for that :

Tap the freaking right click and dont swing like you are some berserker , when 4 of your guys are going for 1 fighter , dont join the fray !

 I have to ask archers not to help me in a melee fight because im imprevisible in my movements...  usually my rule for that is :

More than 3 on me then you can shoot as much as you want ,

3 or lower i dont need your fucking help! , thank you   , i enjoy being surrounded its easier to kill when people are lowering their defense

Directing towards the admin part of that, it sure as hell is much easier to tell who intentionally tk'd someone than it is to find out who was jumping in front of someones arrows intentionally in order to in effect, grief them to death with reflective damage. I'm sorry to say but first hand experience of CoDMW admining when the owners changed the server to reflective damage was annoying as shit to discover who was being an arse and jumping into peoples fire rather than someone who intentionally teamkilled someone who might have accidentally teamkilled the round before etc etc.

People always say that cRPG is becoming Counter Strike for all the range but without going down that route, the similarities to jumping in the way of projectiles in order to reflect the damage onto the projectile user is much harder to work out who intentionally griefed to those who didn't.

Range normally keeps out of the fights and therefore has no enemies around, if an ally jumps in the way then they get hit, reflecting the damage, this could have been a mistake but if it wasn't and you didn't see it, you've only got the guy who was killed by it, word. If someone teamkills you with range or even melee when there's no one around, it's a lot easier to find out who intentionally did it than who didn't by the fact that for a start you get the persons name pop up telling you that he's the person who actually did it. From there you investigate...