[STATS] Change how Arrows are heirloomed.

[Tears of Destiny]

Let me make this as simple as I can put it while properly explaining my point.

I think Archery suffers from a problem that armor has. With armor you can not only heirloom your torso but also your gloves, thus radically increasing the protection that you have VIA heirlooms by doublestacking an effect. Standard weapons on the other hand you can only heirloom and are unable to stack another weapon to further increase damage, same with horses and shields (no other heirloom will stack at the same time)... with the notable exception of archery (and the aforementioned armor).

Archery has the ability to not only heirloom your bow, but also your arrows. At a glance this seems perfectly reasonable as every item should be able to be heirloomed, but I believe that it is done in the wrong way. Both heirlooming your bow and heirlooming your arrows will produce additional damage. Where as other weapons offer +3 damage, Archery can gain +3 damage from the bow and +2 damage from the arrows for a total of +5.

Proposed change

Keep bow heirlooms the same, but change arrow heirlooms to only increasing quiver size:

Old Heirlooms (Potential Damage Bonus Per Quiver):
Arrows +3 ammo/+1 damage/+1 damage (47/54/81/108)
Barbed Arrows +2 ammo/+1 damage/+1 damage (80/88/110/132)
Tatar Arrows +2 ammo/+1 damage/+1 damage (90/100/120/140)
Bodkin Arrows +2 ammo/+1 damage/+1 damage (30p/34p/51p/68p)

New Heirlooms (Potential Damage Bonus Per Quiver):
Arrows +3 ammo/+3 Ammo/+4 Ammo (47/54/59/67)
Barbed Arrows +2 ammo/+2 Ammo/+3 Ammo (80/88/96/108)
Tatar Arrows +2 ammo/+2 Ammo/+3 Ammo (90/100/110/125)
Bodkin Arrows +2 ammo/+2 Ammo/+3 Ammo (30p/34p/38p/44p)

This would help balance the power of high generation archers by keeping the damage bonus better on par with other weapons while ensuring that there is still incentive to heirloom arrows.

Effectively, this would allow higher armor to perform better against arrows as each projectile hits with less power. This also means that Bodkin Heirlooming has a significantly smaller effect, as while with the old system gaining two additional cut damage is minor, with bodkins gaining two additional pierce damage it is significantly more powerful then it should be. This new change would allow armor to remain competitive while slightly increasing the longevity of archers who can manage to stay alive.

EDIT:
For clarification is is + X Arrows per heirloom level, so using bodkins as an example, your quiver size would be 15/17/19/22 from normal level to triple loomed level.. This is why the potential damage numbers keep rising.
Another alternative worth considering

Considering that this would actually buff the archer overall (less damage per arrow but more arrows) I'm still gonna support it. Bow OR arrow looms should increase the damage but not BOTH. What ToD suggested is reasonable and gets my support.

Another way would be for Arrow looms to increase damage (total of +3 at MW and no extra ammo) and instead change the bow looms to increase fire speed/shot speed/accuracy (pick one). That would also be a way to balance it. What do you say?

[Teeth]

Yeah this seems like a good change. Now we just need a similar proposal for armour.

[Bulzur]

I knew i did well doing this xbow hybrid.
I'll have supreme accuracy in strategus, compared to thoses shitty archers, and i'll even deal awesome damage in normal battles, thanks to a lot of bonus damage from heirlooms. Ah ah ah. And all this, with not a single skill point invested, and only 125wpf in xbow.
I love cRPG.


*irony off*
I'm against the simple fact that heirlooming an object doesn't make it change. But you proposed similar stats for the +1 or +2 heirloomed arrows, wich is, imo, wrong. Just change the "old" second or third arrows's heirloom level to a +1ammo, and that will mean -1 raw dmg for all +3 quivers. Wich is already not bad.

[Tears of Destiny]

I knew i did well doing this xbow hybrid.
I'll have supreme accuracy in strategus, compared to thoses shitty archers, and i'll even deal awesome damage in normal battles, thanks to a lot of bonus damage from heirlooms. Ah ah ah. And all this, with not a single skill point invested, and only 125wpf in xbow.
I love cRPG.


*irony off*
I'm against the simple fact that heirlooming an object doesn't make it change. But you proposed similar stats for the +1 or +2 heirloomed arrows, wich is, imo, wrong. Just change the "old" second or third arrows's heirloom level to a +1ammo, and that will mean -1 raw dmg for all +3 quivers. Wich is already not bad.

It is not similar stats, perhaps you misread (or maybe I did).
It is +X PER heirloom level. So for example Bodkins would have +2 then an additional +2 then an additional +3, hence why the Added Damage Potential rises. So you go from 15 to 17 to 19 to 22 arrows for Bodkins, as an example. This is the same principle as armor increases, for example, +2 then +2 then last is a +3.

[MrShine]

I agree, seems like a good idea!

I wonder if it would even be worth it to further tweak bodkin arrows at this point to help balance archery.  Maybe reduce base bodkin damage by 1 and buff other cut arrows by 0/1 as well to make it more of decision... this would probably have to be coupled with a reduction in Bodkin arrow costs/upkeep.

I really like the change to arrows affecting cut/pierce, but a few small internal balance issues (like what ToD suggested) would really help put archery where it needs to be... despite the never-ending cries from the 'nerf ranged' crowd.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

agreed.

sometimes i get nearly one shot by an arrow that i receive in my ass from an an archer im not running towards wearing banded armor and 4 IF (no it wasnt an xbow shot, had a big arrow in my ass)

that cant be a regular arrow & bow

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Yeah for sure, reduce our damage with the arrows, reduce our bowdamage, reduce our accuracy, reduce our speed, take away the possibility to jump, did I forget something else that is/has been suggested on forums?


When will this community stop asking about nerfing archery?


Oh yeah, the bad bad high gen archers with their massive damage. Noone cares that cavalry can onehit you or at lest take most of your life with only 1 hit, regardless wich gen.
Noone cares that alot of 2h weapons or polearms can onehit you or at least take most of your life with only 1 hit, regardless wich gen.

Oh and I forget that they can do that although you are wearing an armour with 45 or more bodyarmour.

But yeah, I totall agree that archerdamage is way too high

[Tears of Destiny]

I am an archer and I think the above poster is a wee bit mad... Perhaps you are forgetting that every class gets nerfed? Besides, this reduces short term damage but increases long term damage due to shots...

*shrugs*

Sorry that this caused a rant, I understand that this suggestion will not make everyone happy.

[gazda]

bows now haz cut damage, come oh mighty horde of archers, lets all whine about it, and ask for damage incrises.

haaaaa bows now haz pierce
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but....so liitlllleeeee ammo , nooooo. archery sucks, you ruined it whine whine whine, Incrise ammo, incrise ammo incrise ammoo.
if you dont do it devs, im gonna roll on the ground and cry, and then i will hold my breath untill i turn blue !!!!!! I WANT ARROWS.

pathetic........

[Cepeshi]

bows now haz cut damage, come oh mighty horde of archers, lets all whine about it, and ask for damage incrises.

haaaaa bows now haz pierce
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but....so liitlllleeeee ammo , nooooo. archery sucks, you ruined it whine whine whine, Incrise ammo, incrise ammo incrise ammoo.
if you dont do it devs, im gonna roll on the ground and cry, and then i will hold my breath untill i turn blue !!!!!! I WANT ARROWS.

pathetic........

tbh i feel a little like this, you now basically want more pierce ammo for ultra fast lowtier bows, i say no cause i think archers have too much ammo anyways, 2-3 shots to kill me, not that big difference with loomed arrows, but hell i wouldnt like the archer to have capability of downing much more of my team after successfully downing me 

even non loomed bodkins hurt like shit since the ammo is affecting type of bow dmg

[Xant]

Yeah for sure, reduce our damage with the arrows, reduce our bowdamage, reduce our accuracy, reduce our speed, take away the possibility to jump, did I forget something else that is/has been suggested on forums?


When will this community stop asking about nerfing archery?


Oh yeah, the bad bad high gen archers with their massive damage. Noone cares that cavalry can onehit you or at lest take most of your life with only 1 hit, regardless wich gen.
Noone cares that alot of 2h weapons or polearms can onehit you or at least take most of your life with only 1 hit, regardless wich gen.

Oh and I forget that they can do that although you are wearing an armour with 45 or more bodyarmour.

But yeah, I totall agree that archerdamage is way too high

Erm.. cavalry can one hit pretty much everyone, point being? 2h/polearms will one hit you if you don't wear armor yes, and? You're doing it wrong if you're getting hit by 2h/polearms all the time.

Also Gazda didn't you GTX?

[MrShine]

bows now haz cut damage, come oh mighty horde of archers, lets all whine about it, and ask for damage incrises.

haaaaa bows now haz pierce
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


but....so liitlllleeeee ammo , nooooo. archery sucks, you ruined it whine whine whine, Incrise ammo, incrise ammo incrise ammoo.
if you dont do it devs, im gonna roll on the ground and cry, and then i will hold my breath untill i turn blue !!!!!! I WANT ARROWS.

pathetic........

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Also try reading comprehension; it helps.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

Erm.. cavalry can one hit pretty much everyone, point being? 2h/polearms will one hit you if you don't wear armor yes, and? You're doing it wrong if you're getting hit by 2h/polearms all the time.

Where in my post did I talk about not wearing armour?

[gazda]

Erm.. cavalry can one hit pretty much everyone, point being? 2h/polearms will one hit you if you don't wear armor yes, and? You're doing it wrong if you're getting hit by 2h/polearms all the time.

Also Gazda didn't you GTX?

Yes i did, but I check forums once in a while, and couldnt bare not to say anything on this thread...

[Tennenoth]

Increase in the number of arrows to carry?  lol I carry 17 arrows and I think that's more than enough, i hardly ever run out but I still get plenty of kills, i'm not the most fantastic archer in EU but I can't agree that with a decrease in damage and an increase in the number of arrows, this'll mean that I could just sit on a roof and fire down arrows constantly with 1 quiver...

Completely 100% against this, not thought through at all in my opinion. I don't need 22 arrows, if I wanted that i'd have chosen other different arrows to heirloom.