Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...

[Thucydides]

well its totally about being a nation , i mean crowded nation.Like only Istanbul's population is more than many countries population on EU.So people share same culture and propaganda style if they want to live with other 15 milion people =) Its like this in turkey.

and you guys blame america for being american. Roflolhegemony

[Joker86]

Actually I didn't even understand what he wanted to say 

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The Last Valley (30 years war)

[Thucydides]

Actually I didn't even understand what he wanted to say 

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The Last Valley (30 years war)

i just went ahead and assumed that he was arguing for forced assimilation of the conquered because societal stability>freedom to dissent. I don't know either

[Oberyn]

i just went ahead and assumed that he was arguing for forced assimilation of the conquered because societal stability>freedom to dissent. I don't know either

Particularly ironic coming from a country who has a diaspora of around 4 million people in varying countries, the majority of whom would call you a racist for even daring to suggest something like that.

[Oberyn]

Anyone who takes '300' seriously and complains about it being historically incorrect is an idiot, it's based on a comic book which is fictional and fantasy, not everything has to be based on reality, 300 is a good movie and it's entertaining, it's not meant to be historically accurate and educational.

Anyone who doesn't take 300 as a disgusting piece of propaganda, which is what it is, is completely ignorant of Frank Miller's views and political inclinations. The guy is a retarded neo-con convinced America is engaged in a death grip war of civilisations. So basically all the morons going around "Why, this is just good old fashioned entertainement, nothing at all wrong with the message this might send" are poorly informed. The very simplistic messages being sent aren't just some random coincidence. The symbolism isn't exactly subtle. 

And like every moronic man-boy who, hilariously enough, was nowhere to be found back when Vietnam was in full swing (probably too busy learning how to meticulously draw muscular men in not enough clothes), this cunt speaks casually of "spilling" blood for the might of the empire. Obviously not his, though. 300 is basically the War on Terror seen through the eyes of someone with less intelligence than understanding of history, which as everyone concedes is already pretty low.

edit:

have a look at this interview with NPR, for example, and then tell me with a straight face this guy wrote "300" with no ulterior motive.

NPR: […] Frank, what’s the state of the union?

FM: Well, I don’t really find myself worrying about the state of the union as I do the state of the home-front. It seems to me quite obvious that our country and the entire Western World is up against an existential foe that knows exactly what it wants … and we’re behaving like a collapsing empire. Mighty cultures are almost never conquered, they crumble from within. And frankly, I think that a lot of Americans are acting like spoiled brats because of everything that isn’t working out perfectly every time.

NPR: Um, and when you say we don’t know what we want, what’s the cause of that do you think?

FM: Well, I think part of that is how we’re educated. We’re constantly told all cultures are equal, and every belief system is as good as the next. And generally that America was to be known for its flaws rather than its virtues. When you think about what Americans accomplished, building these amazing cities, and all the good its done in the world, it’s kind of disheartening to hear so much hatred of America, not just from abroad, but internally.

NPR: A lot of people would say what America has done abroad has led to the doubts and even the hatred of its own citizens.

FM: Well, okay, then let’s finally talk about the enemy. For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we’re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built.

NPR: As you look at people around you, though, why do you think they’re so, as you would put it, self-absorbed, even whiny?

FM: Well, I’d say it’s for the same reason the Athenians and Romans were. We’ve got it a little good right now. Where I would fault President Bush the most, was that in the wake of 9/11, he motivated our military, but he didn’t call the nation into a state of war. He didn’t explain that this would take a communal effort against a common foe. So we’ve been kind of fighting a war on the side, and sitting off like a bunch of Romans complaining about it. Also, I think that George Bush has an uncanny knack of being someone people hate. I thought Clinton inspired more hatred than any President I had ever seen, but I’ve never seen anything like Bush-hatred. It’s completely mad.

NPR: And as you talk to people in the streets, the people you meet at work, socially, how do you explain this to them?

FM: Mainly in historical terms, mainly saying that the country that fought Okinawa and Iwo Jima is now spilling precious blood, but so little by comparison, it’s almost ridiculous. And the stakes are as high as they were then. Mostly I hear people say, ‘Why did we attack Iraq?’ for instance. Well, we’re taking on an idea. Nobody questions why after Pearl Harbor we attacked chocolate chip cookie Germany. It was because we were taking on a form of global fascism, we’re doing the same thing now.

NPR: Well, they did declare war on us, but…

FM: Well, so did Iraq.

[Thucydides]

Anyone who doesn't take 300 as a disgusting piece of propaganda, which is what it is, is completely ignorant of Frank Miller's views and political inclinations. The guy is a retarded neo-con convinced America is engaged in a death grip war of civilisations. So basically all the morons going around "Why, this is just good old fashioned entertainement, nothing at all wrong with the message this might send" are poorly informed. The very simplistic messages being sent aren't just some random coincidence. The symbolism isn't exactly subtle. 

And like every moronic man-boy who, hilariously enough, was nowhere to be found back when Vietnam was in full swing (probably too busy learning how to meticulously draw muscular men in not enough clothes), this cunt speaks casually of "spilling" blood for the might of the empire. Obviously not his, though. 300 is basically the War on Terror seen through the eyes of someone with less intelligence than understanding of history, which as everyone concedes is already pretty low.

edit:

have a look at this interview with NPR, for example, and then tell me with a straight face this guy wrote "300" with no ulterior motive.

not that you're wrong, but Frank miller tried to do a war on terror analogy in his new comics, which failed horribly. 300 could have been inspired by that, but 300 as a comic has more similarities with sin city then that peice of crap he produced. The terrible quality of "Holy Terror" makes me think that 300 was not a political propaganda peice, because it is so much better than his "Holy Terror" novel.

[Oberyn]

Frank Miller's post-9/11 propaganda comic Holy Terror has been through a few changes. In 2006, it was announced as Holy Terror, Batman!, and was due to be a piece of DC comic that pitted Batman, one of the most popular comic book heroes ever, against Al-Qaeda, perpetrators of 9/11 as well as other terrorist attacks all around the world. Miller's logic was that since Captain America and other heroes had punched out einstein and killed chocolate chip cookies during World War II, what we needed was a superhero to punch America's new enemy in the face.

So by his own admission this guy sets out to create propaganda that would've been considered appropriate during a full on Total War 60 years ago. If anything that just makes 300 even more suspect. It's really a masterstroke of marketing, the way it managed to be portrayed as just simple, cool-looking entertainment in all media instead of the loathing-filled spergy revenge fantasy it really is.

[ordunin]

Imdb page please.

Sorry didn't return to this thread until now >.> but here it is
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055719/

[Thucydides]

So by his own admission this guy sets out to create propaganda that would've been considered appropriate during a full on Total War 60 years ago. If anything that just makes 300 even more suspect. It's really a masterstroke of marketing, the way it managed to be portrayed as just simple, cool-looking entertainment in all media instead of the loathing-filled spergy revenge fantasy it really is.

i think you're inputting beliefs about 300 after knowing his intentions with holy terror. 300 was definitely jingoistic, even xenophobic, but hell that was faithful to the style of Greek politics and customs at that time. i cant really think of anything from 300  that was blatantly a reference to modern politics,because "greek freedom" was really a rallying cry for the greeks during the persian wars.

[Oberyn]

i think you're inputting beliefs about 300 after knowing his intentions with holy terror. 300 was definitely jingoistic, even xenophobic, but hell that was faithful to the style of Greek politics and customs at that time. i cant really think of anything from 300  that was blatantly a reference to modern politics,because "greek freedom" was really a rallying cry for the greeks during the persian wars.

For the Athenians, who are routinely derided and insulted in the movie, to the point of ommitting, Ooh I don't know, the massive naval battle they were fighting at exactly the same time the Spartans were holding the pass at Thermopylae (along with 1K of militia soldiers from other cities, who despite also being derided and insulted fought and died till the end, they didnt run away to let the brave spartans hold the rearguard) . And that's already pretty ironic, considering the Athenians could own slaves and their democracy was extremely restrictive. The Spartans politically had more in common with Stalinist Russia than anything in the US, and they certainly would never have shouted for freedom during a battle. This is just one of the many reasons Frank Miller fails at history.

For one thing, “300″ gave all credit to the Spartans, extolling them as role models and peerless examples of manhood. Adorably macho defenders of freedom.

Uh, right.  Freedom. Sorry, but the word bears a heavy burden of irony when shouted by Spartans, who maintained one of the worst slave-states ever, treating the vast majority of their people as cattle, routinely quenching their swords in the bodies of poor, brutalized helots… who are never mentioned, even glimpsed, in the romanticized book or movie. Indeed, the very same queen who Frank Miller portrayed as so-earthy, so-kind, was said to be quite brutal with a whip, in real life.

Miller’s Spartan warriors honestly and openly conveyed the contempt for civilians that was felt across the ages by all feudal warrior castes. An attitude in sharp contrast to American sympathies, which always used to be about Minuteman farmers and shopkeepers – citizen soldiers – the kind who bravely pick up arms to aid their country, adapting and training under fire. Alas, Frank Miller’s book and movie “300″ ridiculed that kind of soldier…

…even though the first invasion by Persia, ten years earlier – under Xerxes’s father – had been defeated by just such a militia army… from Athens… made up of farmers, clerks, tradesmen, artists and mathematicians. A rabble of ill-disciplined “brawlers” who, after waiting in vain for promised help from Sparta, finally decided to handle the problem alone.  On that fateful day that citizen militia leveled their spears and their thin blue line attacked a professional Persian force many times their number, slaughtering them to the last man on the legendary beach of Marathon.

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2011/11/move-over-frank-miller-or-why-occupy.html

That entire article seems to be bashing him for some sort of recent comments on the protests on the US, but he conveniently deconstructs how terrible Miller's 300 is as far as historical accuracy. And that's not even getting into the real culprit, the characterisation of the Persian Empire, but when you see stuff like this:
"These people saw people’s heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I’m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I’m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built."
, it's pretty easy to understand where he's coming from. This guy hates any culture that is even tangentially related to the Islamic religion. It's not about Al-Qaeda, or terrorists. I've read a few reviews of the "Holy Terror" stuff, and it's only served to convince me even further. The US is at war with an idea, indeed, but Miller seems to think that idea is Islam, not Terrorism.

Frank Miller needed the plutocratic military worship AND the freedom-loving democracy to project onto, because that's what he believes the US should be, but he conveniently ignores that no such culture ever existed, at least certainly not in ancient Sparta. And he needed a despicable enemy that could easily be painted as sub-human and he chose...the most technologically and culturally advanced empire at the time...the fails in this guy's symbology for anyone with even passing knowledge of ancient history are just too much. Anyways, the Spartans in 300 are Miller's idealization of the US. There's no way of stating it any clearer.

[Thucydides]

For the Athenians, who are routinely derided and insulted in the movie, to the point of ommitting, Ooh I don't know, the massive naval battle they were fighting at exactly the same time the Spartans were holding the pass at Thermopylae (along with 1K of militia soldiers from other cities, who despite also being derided and insulted fought and died till the end, they didnt run away to let the brave spartans hold the rearguard) . And that's already pretty ironic, considering the Athenians could own slaves and their democracy was extremely restrictive. The Spartans politically had more in common with Stalinist Russia than anything in the US, and they certainly would never have shouted for freedom during a battle. This is just one of the many reasons Frank Miller fails at history.

except it is repeatively mentioned in both Herodotus and Thucydides that "Greek Freedom" was the rallying cry which both the Athenians and Spartans claimed to fight for. In fact, this idea of "Greek Freedom" was used by Brasdia in the Pelponnesian War to win over neutrals/allies to sparta's cause against Athenian imperialism. We can debate whether or not the actual objective was the liberation of greece or merely shrewed propaganda, the fact is that greek freedom is an integral part of the narrative of the persian wars, and was really what started the Persian wars.

I am not surprised that the Athenians were ignored, the movie is about the 300, not thermopyle and the naval battle that kept the persian fleet in check. Athens would have been another component that wouldn't fit into the narrative of heroic individuals.


of course there will be historical inaccuracies, but such is the nature of every story. I find it particularly interesting that they had a lone spartan survivor retell the story, and it is this story that we see, not what "actually" happened.

as to your latter comments, i'd say that yes, the Spartan state is like National Socialism if slavery was still allowed. But who cares, no one goes to a movie expecting an analysis on governmental and societal mechanisms. Stories can only be so realistic before it becomes boring to the average idiot. Finally, theres no doubting that 300 was meant to show virtues that miller believe are important, but going as far as saying that the spartans are the "idealization" of the proper american may be going too far. I don't really follow your reasoning that 300 is frank miller's idealization of America, because if anything, spartans were not the "freedom loving" democrats that you claim frank miller is espousing as, even in the movie/books you become aware of the Sparan Agoge, and the total LACK of choice you have in spartan society. If anything, miller is promoting only a certain aspect of  american policy, which would be the world's policemen. But thats a far cry from equating Frank miller's Sparta with the USA.

On and one final thing, 300 was written by Miller in 1998, 3 years before 9/11.

[To Kill A Dead Horse]

I cast my vote for "Ironclad"

[B3RS3RK]

I liked 300 because I like blood and murder in movies.

And, tbh, normal People dont see anything else in that movie than some entertaining slaughter.

Its guys like you who are deep into the matter who see similiarities between the "War on terror" and 300.For a normal Guy, its absolutely absurd to compare those things.

I mean, fuck, 300 was about Half-naked Semi-Gay Men massacring Thousands of Gay-looking but heterosexual Persians and some African beasts.

[Thucydides]

I liked 300 because I like blood and murder in movies.

And, tbh, normal People dont see anything else in that movie than some entertaining slaughter.

Its guys like you who are deep into the matter who see similiarities between the "War on terror" and 300.For a normal Guy, its absolutely absurd to compare those things.

I mean, fuck, 300 was about Half-naked Semi-Gay Men massacring Thousands of Gay-looking but heterosexual Persians and some African beasts.

My favorite argument to crush is the fact that there were black people on the persian side, "There were no black people in persia, this is so historically inaccurate". Persia reconquered egypt prior to thermoplye and it would make a heck of a lot of sense that they would hire Nubian/Ethiopian mercenaries during that campaign. Persia was not "Iran" but a collection of semi-independant states and races working together under the "King of Kings". It was quite a multi-ethnic empire.

[Overdriven]

I was personally sad that 300 existed. They were about to start making a HISTORICAL movie on Thermopylae. Based on a book I read a while ago, called Gates of Fire (Steven Pressfield). But they decided not to make it and went with 300 instead 

But yes, there is no need to look so in depth into a movie like that. Most people take it as face value, entertainment. They don't see anything else, and I'd personally rather look at it that way to. There is such a thing as over analysing something and I fear that is what's happening here.