General Talk about Medieval Age, woop dee doo

[Bobthehero]

So yeah, this part of the forum lacks a nice thread about the middle ages in general.

So lets talk about that, I'll a subject, the creation of Universities.


So as far as I know they were created in Europe, in Bologne to be a bit more accurate, around 1088, it spreads to Paris later on, so at teh beginning they stuck around in Western Europe (What the hell is that bullshit, all science and knowledge comes from Islam places, Europeans are savages and mindless barbarians that live in mud fuck off Safavid, this is an attempt to be a serious thread.)

So yeah, share your knowledge here, would be nice.

[Thucydides]

well Islam is credited with preserving the majority of aristotle's scientific work, which it's discovery in the west was credited with starting the renaissance in first italy, then the rest if europe. Too bad Timur the Lame razed bagdad and initiated a middle eastern decline.

[Bobthehero]

Not Islam really, its the movement of people, the Greeks thinkers left Greece after the Emperor there ordered all the non christian schools to be closed.

Then said guys fled to Bagdad, up until persecussion by the current leader (who was Islamic, not the first Islamic, but one) and then they moved to North Africa/Middle East where once again they stayed for years, building schools and academies, then they moved back to Europe, don't remember why, but according to our teacher the movement of thinkers like that invovle a non friendly political elite almost all the time.

[Thucydides]

Not Islam really, its the movement of people, the Greeks thinkers left Greece after the Emperor there ordered all the non christian schools to be closed.

Then said guys fled to Bagdad, up until persecussion by the current leader (who was Islamic, not the first Islamic, but one) and then they moved to North Africa/Middle East where once again they stayed for years, building schools and academies, then they moved back to Europe, don't remember why, but according to our teacher the movement of thinkers like that invovle a non friendly political elite almost all the time.

never heard of this, considering that these "thinkers", by the time of the roman conquests, spread out throughout the empire, i find it hard to believe this theory. By the time of late antiquity, Greek was widely spoken in what is now the middle east. In fact, many of the greatest thinkers during that period were not from greece, but from alexandria, Antioch, Pergamon, Sidon etc etc. Greece was a shell of it's former glory by the time of Diocleian.

i think it was not so much thinkers but literature. A ban on non christian schools would necessarly lead to a purge of non christian literature, which would account for the lack of key greek texts that the islamic countries had in possession (polybius, aristotle, etc).

[Bobthehero]

By the way the part I am talking about the movement happened in the Eastern Roman Empire, in 529 the Academy in Athens was closed, that caused the  people to move to territories that were not yet Islamised (since Islam did not exist), they stayed for quite a philo and their text were translated.

There's a term in latin for that you might have a chance to look it up but I don't have it noted so screw that 

[Thucydides]

By the way the part I am talking about the movement happened in the Eastern Roman Empire, in 529 the Academy in Athens was closed, that caused the  people to move to territories that were not yet Islamised (since Islam did not exist), they stayed for quite a philo and their text were translated.

There's a term in latin for that you might have a chance to look it up but I don't have it noted so screw that 

oh i know, but by 529 greek scholarship is known already throughout the middle east. The islamic golden age occurred a long time after this period, where they advanced on the knowledge built by the greeks and transferred westward by Byzantine scholars in the 13th century. The movement of thinkers, i believe, did very little in affecting the islamic golden age, given that there was such a large cache of greek literature stored in the cities of egypt, syria, and libya at that time. Even Cestiphon must have had a large greek library to cater to the greek communities of the former seleucid empire. The movement of thinker was accelerated in 529 yes, but by that time Alexandria was the center of learning, not Athens.

[Ujin]

well Islam is credited with preserving the majority of aristotle's scientific work, which it's discovery in the west was credited with starting the renaissance in first italy, then the rest if europe. Too bad Timur the Lame razed bagdad and initiated a middle eastern decline.

Timur, unlike his mongolian predecessors (except for Kublai Khan) , actually built alot after he had destroyed the cities that opposed him. A spanish ambassador Claviho (or something like that) was literally stunned when he visited Timur's empire for the first time, especially by Samarkand. At that time, Europe was considered a land of minor barbaric Kingdoms with nothing of interest, whilist the East had flourished trade, culture, wealth and science. It is true, however , that Timur's empire was at it's zenith for as long as he was alive. One of his descendants, though , founded the Mughal dynasty in India.

[Thucydides]

Timur, unlike his mongolian predecessors (except for Kublai Khan) , actually built alot after he had destroyed the cities that opposed him. A spanish ambassador Claviho (or something like that) was literally stunned when he visited Timur's empire for the first time, especially by Samarkand. At that time, Europe was considered a land of minor barbaric Kingdoms with nothing of interest, whilist the East had flourished trade, culture, wealth and science. It is true, however , that Timur's empire was at it's zenith for as long as he was alive. One of his descendants, though , founded the Mughal dynasty in India.

his complete destruction of bagdad and it's valuable greek texts is something i and history cannot forgive. He could build as many pretty structures as he wants, they all turn to dust anyways.

[Oberyn]

Refer to one of Safavid's threads for my opinion on Islam's actual contribution to knowledge. In brief, all the highly advanced civilizations of that got conquered were already conserving/spreading technology and knowledge long before they got conquered by a religion that came from, let's face it, a bunch of relatively backward tribes who thought cities and their inhabitants were effiminate and useless, not unlike the mongols. This is clearly evident in the Islamic golden age, which was basically a cultural extension of the Persian and Egyptian empires in everything but religion. From academics, to healers, to art, to architecture, etc..The one massive advantage it conferred was a sort of "melting pot", but there needed to be something to mix in there in the first place.

Anyways, a lot of historians pinpoint the decline of "Islamic" knowledge to the utter destruction of Baghdad and it's Library. I'm lazy so straight from wiki:

"Iraq in 1258 was very different from present day Iraq. Its agriculture was supported by canal networks thousands of years old. Baghdad was one of the most brilliant intellectual centers in the world. The Mongol destruction of Baghdad was a psychological blow from which Islam never recovered. Already Islam was turning inward, becoming more suspicious of conflicts between faith and reason and more conservative. With the sack of Baghdad, the intellectual flowering of Islam was snuffed out. Imagining the Athens of Pericles and Aristotle obliterated by a nuclear weapon begins to suggest the enormity of the blow. The Mongols filled in the irrigation canals and left Iraq too depopulated to restore them." (Steven Dutch)

[Thucydides]

Refer to one of Safavid's threads for my opinion on Islam's actual contribution to knowledge. In brief, all the highly advanced civilizations of that got conquered were already conserving/spreading technology and knowledge long before they got conquered by a religion that came from, let's face it, a bunch of relatively backward tribes who thought cities and their inhabitants were effiminate and useless, not unlike the mongols. This is clearly evident in the Islamic golden age, which was basically a cultural extension of the Persian and Egyptian empires in everything but religion. From academics, to healers, to art, to architecture, etc..The one massive advantage it conferred was a sort of "melting pot", but there needed to be something to mix in there in the first place.

no doubt the islamic "golden age" is the result of the continuation of intellectual development by embedded knowledgable thinkers. However, the fact is that the Muslim conquerers were incredibly tolerant of the sciences and reason, stemming from the late antiquity belief that faith and reason can co-exist. They were the conduit for Indian mathematical influence (numbers and algebra), as well as developing their own advanced technology and fermenting technological and economic growth in asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China#Song_Dynasty).  This was contrary to the european attitude towards the sciences at that time, more dogmatic than reasonable. However by the time of the early renaissance/late medieval period, there was a growing intellectual movement that believed thonly faith can answer "religious" questions and that reason has no ability in answering the most basic theological and epistmenological questions (Ghazali, 12th century muslim philosopher, postulated that there is no casual relation between material objects and interactions, rather it was the result of god's will. This is similar to Hume's is/ought problem but the solution was a theological one, that could not be refuted by reason since the only way to argue against it, is to deny god(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghazali#Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers) and the denial of god is punishable by death. Ironically, plato's dialogue "euthphyro" addressed the incoherence of god and his relationship with how people ought to act.)