The Crusades in the Holy Land

[Safavid]

This text is filled with so much bullshit it would take me ages to even try to reply to it. Seeing how you are suffering from extreme brainwashing im not going to debate with you. Hell i admit that Cristianity was spread by the sword but some of those statements in your text are laughable, actualy 90% of that text is pure propaganda.

I pick this part beacause it was particulary hilarious:

The Europeans, the Balkan nations included, kept continuous contacts with the Muslims—the Fatimids (969-1171), the Ayyubids (1171-1250) and the Mamluks (1250-1517)—because of various interests, trade being one of them.

Contacts? Oh my god this made me lol irl. Yea contacts, contacts of sabers and swords.

Oh my, i could reply to almost all the sentences in that text, such is the ammount of bullshit. I will just stop reading this now.

It's not your fault, you are an uneducated and ignorant person brainwashed by third world eastern european parents who know nothing of their history, except what the racists and biggots put there for you.  However, the Muslim Empire that stretched three continents was mostly a peaceful Empire and of course had to defend itself against Crusaders.  Also, there are good and bad people in every group, so not all Muslims represent the faith or the collective. 

If you want to learn about the history of Islam, I suggest visiting www.muslimheritage.com also if you want to learn about the art and science that the Crusaders learned from and without would still be in the dark ages: www.1001inventions.com

[Fluffy_Muffin]

I must be extremely bored to do this... and i know you wont listen but here goes:

THE SPREAD OF ISLAM IN THE BALKANS

Insofar as the nations of the Balkan Peninsula are concerned, the overwhelming historic evidence reveals that military expeditions were of little significance in the spread of Islam. Thus, the teachings of Islam were the crucial factor in winning people over. The Quranic declaration that "there is no compulsion in religion," gave people the feeling of freedom for the first time in centuries. The very famous Albanian writer, S. Frashëri, observes: "Apart from the usage of military might to spread Islam, there does exist another way without turning to invasion or the force of arms, a way that is often not mentioned by the historians." Arnold Toynbee considers this a major point and mentions it in his book, too.

Military "expeditions" were the main way of spreading Islam into the Balkan Peninsula. Also 5 centuries of bloody warfare is a invasion not a simple "expedition".
It gave people freedom? are you serious? Male children were taken for the Turkish army and raised in Islam, great freedom they had eh? Villages were burned to the ground and the population that wasnt Muslim was considered inferior and pushed around, The Turks offered perks and privelidges to the people that converted to Islam so some did, prefering to live normal lives under the Turkish rule rather then being frowned upon.


Looking back in history, it is easy to understand which way was the most influential means of spreading Islam; the force of arms or Islamic teachings. Most of the time, the Muslim armies only opened the "door" for the Islamic civilization to present itself, and ultimately the people would see the difference.

Yea it opened the door with sabers and torches, so much for the power of peacefull Islamic teachings

Islamic civilization entered the Balkan Peninsula mainly from the West through the contacts with Andalusia in Spain, from the South through Mediterranean Sea and Sicily, and from the Northeast through Hungary. Even though the evidence is minimal, after a serious analysis, the above question—how did Islam come to the Balkan Peninsula—would be finally answered.

Mainly from the West? Are you kidding me? It came with the Turkish invasion. A historical fact that im sure you will try to deny somehow.

After all the research, three are the ways through which the Islamic civilization gained its foothold in the Balkan Peninsula, and a further elaboration of them will follow.

The development of Islamic civilization and of the Muslims themselves conditioned the expansion of trade. The goods produced were mainly traded with neighboring nations, however, the traders often ventured even further to far and unknown places. This is why that since the 9th century trade relations between Europe and the Middle East through the Mediterranean Sea has been booming. In these trade relations, the most daring Europeans were those from Florence, Venice, Pizza, Genoa, followed by the French, and Catalonians. The European merchants through Egypt and Syria ventured far into the Far East.

The Illyro-Albanians had established trade relations with the Arab and Turkish nations, and not only the port-cities of the Adriatic Sea, but the rural parts of the Balkan Peninsula inhabited by them as well. Such strong trade relations had been established since ancient times, and continued into the pre-Ottoman and Ottoman periods.

The Arab gold and silver coins excavated in Potoci, near Mostar of the present-day Bosnia-Herzegovina, date back to the time of Marwaan II (744-750 C) which tells of the extensive trade relations the Muslims had with the Balkan nations, first the Albanians and later the Slavs.

Port-cities along the Adriatic Sea like Dubrovnik, Tivari, Ulqini, Durazzo, Valona, Himara, etc., and other Greek and Southern Italian cities were centers of trade. During the 12th century, the well known Muslim historians and travelers, Al-Idreesi and Ibn Hawkal, tell in fine details the social and political situation of those places. They also describe the road going through the Balkan Peninsula, from the Aegean Sea along the valley of the Vardar River to the coasts of the Adriatic Sea.

Usually, the Italian merchants traveled by sea, whereas the Muslims mostly traveled overland. The merchants from Venice and Florence used to trade regularly and exchanged their goods mostly in Istanbul and Gallata. Well known are also the caravans from Dubrovnik to Istanbul, and vice versa.

Such strong trade relations have had a great impact on the Balkan nations. Apart from buying and selling, which was the primary intention, the merchants brought many new ideas and changes. This was intensified further when the Muslim merchants started to establish themselves in some fortified and secured coastal cities. The first Muslim colonies appeared. Though they were very small in the beginning, they became larger, and even stronger.

Ofcourse there was trade, such trade was present from ancient times, it however had nowhere near the significance it says in this text for the spread of Islam in the Balkans

Military and political relation


On the other hand, the conquest of Spain by the Muslims opened a new chapter in their relations with the Balkan nations. Some of the Slav tribes, especially the Slovenians and Croats, had good relations with the Muslim Spain. In the royal court of Haakimi I (791-822) there were 2000 guards of Croatian origin. Such a large number of guards indicated the extensive relations between them.

Croatian mercenary guard where renown for their loyalty and skill in arms and were present at many courts, they had relationships everywhere and this was before the Invasion.
 
This variety of military relations was extended to the politics, too. The Muslim countries had cordial relationship with their Balkan counterparts. In 856, the Serb king, Mikhail III, sent his envoy to the Caliph Al-Mutawakkil Ibn Ar-Rasheed of the Abbasid dynasty to arrange a form of debate on religious matters.
 
In 922, moved by the Islamic teachings, the Bulgarian king sent an envoy to Caliph Al-Muqtadir of the Abbasid dynasty to convey his family’s decision to embrace Islam.
 
In this point, well known are the contacts that Caliph Haroon Ar-Rasheed had established with the European rulers. He had sent his envoy to the Serb king, Carl the Great, in order to establish cordial and reciprocal relations.
 
The Croat ruler, Prince Tomislav, had good relations with caliph Abdur-Rahmaan III and even used to exchange gifts. Abdur-Rahmaan III had sent envoys to all the Slav kingdoms to discuss and charter their future relations.

First of all its King Tomislav not Prince Tomislav, secondly he was a skilled diplomat, thus the gifts, he had to focus his military might elsewhere.
 
The Europeans, the Balkan nations included, kept continuous contacts with the Muslims—the Fatimids (969-1171), the Ayyubids (1171-1250) and the Mamluks (1250-1517)—because of various interests, trade being one of them.

Again this contacts. Funny how you mention them like they were peaceful trade relations or something when infact the Turkish invasion is the greatest scurge in the history of Croatia. Funny also how you mention Croatia as a 3rd wordly country. Do you know why people consider us a 3rd world country? All the history of Croatia is full of defensive warfare, and the greatest devastation to the population was during the Turkish "contacts". Maybe we would be as prosperous as westren European countries if you didnt pound us to the ground continueusly.
 
The Slavs were allies to the Muslims against the Roman and Byzantine Empires. However, their relations with the Illyro-Albanians will define the future military and political actors of the Balkan Peninsula. At the beginning, those relations were cordial, but changed rapidly.
 
Yet, there were various contacts between the Muslims and the Illyro-Albanians. The fact that the Illyro-Albanians were ruled by the foreigners—the Roman and Byzantine Empires, the Serbs, etc.—means that they were almost never identified as an independent political entity.
 
Missionaries and migrations
 
Maybe the most important factor that influenced the rapid spread of Islam among the Illyro-Albanians was the work of missionaries and migrations of different groups of people. There are indications that travelers and theologian visited almost every part of the peninsula centuries before the Ottomans appeared and played an important role in preaching Islam. This was in some way assisted by the fact that the Muslims controlled many territories around the Balkan Peninsula (Southern Italy, some Greek islands, the Asia Minor, etc.), and by the incursions of the Muslim armies as well.
 
Maybe the most important among the migrations was a group of Turkish Muslims who settled in Southern Hungary (near the border with the Byzantine Empire) and somewhere near the Ohrid Lake (Macedonia) as well (almost in the center of the peninsula). This was the time when the first concentrated Muslim dwellings were seen in the peninsula.

The Russian Czar Theofil, while fighting in the Asia Minor, forced many Muslims to migrate. They settled in the Balkan Peninsula in the valley of the Vardar River. They came to be known the "Turks of Vardar."

Yet, the presence of the Muslims in the Balkan Peninsula was so great that the Christian kingdoms could no longer tolerate them. Thus, in the 13th century, many crusades directed to the Middle East passed through the peninsula and exterminated the Muslims living there.
 
Learn more about how Islam brings peace and is against war, terrorism and intolerance: www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com

Im sorry for any spelling mistakes i made, and again i only replied to the points that concerned the teritory under Tomislav. You just cant say that the spread on the Balkans was peacefull, and the historians know it. I dont deny the peaceful teachings in the Kuran but in practice concerning the spread of Islam it is simply not true

[Safavid]

Sure, the Turks did do a lot of things that didn't represent Islam or Muslims, but you have to think of it this way...many of the Janissary who later became Sultans themselves were originally Balkan Christians.  You don't see the same thing in Europe at that time do you?  Where do you know in Europe's Christian Kingdoms Muslims being recruited as soldiers then becoming the King of a Christian European country?  Islam is much more tolerant and does not care about race and is multicultural, something that Europe was not and still has issues with.  In the end, multiculturalism and equality of the races will win and that is what Islam stands for. 

Was Islam Spread By The Sword? Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvHeqyCumgo

[BTW: It is amazing how there is a double standard when the truth is said...quickly people talk about "religious propaganda", while the whole thread is about "Crusades" which are violent Christian attacks on Muslims, Jews, and Orthodox Christians.  Reminds you of the Shariah banners and Rep. King on the news who are nothing bot religious biggots.]

[Siiem]

Can you take your religious propaganda elsewhere? Thank you.

[LordBerenger]

Yes or i lock this thread, trololololol.




Though they fought in the name of God so ;/

[Laufknoten]

multiculturalism and equality of the races will win and that is what Islam stands for. 

Multiculturalism and equality of the races won't win, cause multiculturalism is bullshit and there are no races.

[Safavid]

@Laufknoten, you are hillarious "Multiculturalism is bullshit and there are no races", then what is there?  I think racism and biggotry has literally driven some people to insanity and they no longer possess cognitive abilities or have the brainpower for rational thought.  Instead, they believe chocolate chip cookie ideologies that multiculturalism (which is how all us homo sapiens evolved) is bs and all the different colors of people don't exist.  Wow, I think you have really made my day in double standards, ignorance, and trying to just ignore reality.  Thanks for your comedy relief and my comedic enjoyment today because without it I would not be laughing so hard.    BTW, when the Persians (gorillas) first went to India, they thought they could keep the soldiers from 'breeding' with the local Dravidian population, however as in Jurassic Park..."nature finds a way!" and now you have most of Northern India as a hybrid and evolved gorilla-Dravidian mix.  Races are beautiful and should be celebrated just like genders which without we would be Sea Horses.  Again, thank you for the comedic relief which I am still ROFL. 

(I am racially gorilla (Persian) and religiously Muslim.  I have some Azeri blood, which is racially again gorilla but linguistically Turkish.) 

[Paul]

He is right, the Islam is very tolerant. Like the Borg they accept everyone to join in. Getting out is a bit of a problem though.

With all the BS posted, the thing Turkish people should really proud on is that they managed to create a secular state despite having a population of mainly Islamic believe. That is the great achievement of Ataturk and the Turkish nation.

[Dunecat]

With all the BS posted, the thing Turkish people should really proud on is that they managed to create a secular state despite having a population of mainly Islamic believe. That is the great achievement of Ataturk and the Turkish nation.

This.
 Also, please don't bring in term "gorilla", it causes much confusion. Ask central european, eastern european, middle-eastern [preferably persian] and indian people, you'll get somewhat different definitions of "gorilla". Truth, however, seems to be somewhere in between - everyone's right?

[Kalam]

Let's keep this thread on topic. Religious debate belongs in its own thread in Off Topic or Spam. 

[LordBerenger]

Also take your debate about races elsewhere too. Thanks for the help great Batman

[Dunecat]

Also take your debate about races elsewhere too. Thanks for the help great Batman

great Batman

Trololo?

Game nicks: Kalam_BRD, Midnighter_BRD

[FICO]

christianity is peaceful religion. as islam, too. most of religions are pacifistic. (but there is very big BUT.)
but people are not. many protestants went over border from croatia to turks during history. turks were sometimes really more tolerable to other religions than christians. it is not because they didn't want to convert them, but mostly because of money and politics (higher taxes etc - raja (raya) and famous "the enemy of my enemy MIGHT be my friend). i don't say that there were no openminded people in those times, but they were very rare.

oh and beside THE war, there were pillage and plunder parties on both sides (even during "peace") which were driven by greed and money, but they always said it was solely because of "infidel scum" 

[Safavid]

christianity is peaceful religion. as islam, too. most of religions are pacifistic. (but there is very big BUT.)
but people are not. many protestants went over border from croatia to turks during history. turks were sometimes really more tolerable to other religions than christians. it is not because they didn't want to convert them, but mostly because of money and politics (higher taxes etc - raja (raya) and famous "the enemy of my enemy MIGHT be my friend). i don't say that there were no openminded people in those times, but they were very rare.

oh and beside THE war, there were pillage and plunder parties on both sides (even during "peace") which were driven by greed and money, but they always said it was solely because of "infidel scum" 

Very good points made, it is not the religion, but rather the greed and politics of the man who chooses to abuse faith or lack there of (ie. Stalin).  For the most part, the Ottomans were good at welcoming people, however they were an Empire and it's like dealing with a broadsword and not a scalpel, as wel can see in Libya and the USA. 

Also, I would recommend checking out this site in regards to religious unity: www.unionoffaiths.com

[H4rdn3ssKill3r]

Safavid stop being OOT and go make you're own thread about islam and the're peaceful way's!
Goddam it we are talking about the crusades, bloody battle, white assasi... I mean templars and mamlukes...

And so I say onething RICHARD LIONHEART IS L33T in so many levels... but not in stronghold crusader, noo in that game he's a asshole!