Author Topic: A new philosophy for weapon balance.  (Read 2986 times)

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Offline Thomek

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A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« on: January 04, 2011, 09:33:48 am »
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Ait, this post may be a bit ambitious, but here goes my thoughts.

I strongly feel that armors and weapons in c-rpg could be utilized better and have more interesting stats. The main reason for this is that we have a lot of weapons, but only a fraction are much-used by players, as they at some point always tend to fall down on the agreed top weapons.
(lolswords, bec, elegant polaxe, top 1h axe, spamitar, hammer, or 2-3 top 1h swords. Of course you also have special-use weps like lolhammers, pikes and such.)

Another reason is that I would like to see more variety in playstyles, and see more "specialized" players. If more players become specialized, there will be more players specializing to take them out, and thus perhaps-perhaps more tactics on the battlefield.

WEAPONS IN GENERAL

My thought is to try and make every weapon feel and act as unique as possible, with clear advantages and disadvantages. It should be a hard choice of pro's and con's to choose what weapon to get. I say get, not buy, because price have very little to do with balance.

(You can argue after patch etc etc, but even after that there will be movements, into better or worse equipment. It's not a self-balancing system keeping the amount of money in c-rpg at a fixed rate, economy-wise. It will grow and everyone will get richer, or we will all eventually end up with exactly the same amount of money, kinda like communism! BURN chadz THE COMMUNIST! :-)

So basically, every wep should have a clear "thought" behind it, and that thought should be visible in it's stats.

I.ex a sword of Tears should perhaps stab really well, but it's cut-damage should be far far worse.
A cookies should have better cut, but crappier stab than it currently has.
A longsword should perhaps be simply well all-round, do less pierce than Tears, and less cut that Cookies, but more of the opposite, as well as more speed to make up for the lack of range.

I tried making several graphs to show you what I think, but found it very hard, because the stats pull in 5 dimensions..

* Speed
* Range
* Thrust
* Cut
* Blunt

In addition to this you have animation nerfs/bonuses like spamby thrust and spear+shield and requirements, some weps are 2h+1h etc etc. Anyway, let me explain in a simplified way, how things are now:

BAD/CHEAP========================================================================GOOD/EXPENSIVE

POLEARMS
Pitchfork  ================================================================> Elegant Poleaxe/Bec

2H WEPS
Practice Longsword =========================================================> Flambie/Tears/Cookies

1H WEPS
I don't know anything about those, but they seem to be the most specialized weapon group. 1 for spamitar for cloth, 1 hammer for tin-cans, 1 axe for shields, and 1-3 All-rounders. That's 4-7 of 60 options.

An easy way to implement what I'm suggesting is to make every wep a bit more "extreme" so that there are less all-rounders, and more "compromise-type" weapons.

I.ex: 1H Hammers (blunt 1h)

1 is fast and long with little damage
2 is fast and short with a lot of damage
3 is slow and long with a lot of damage
4 is slow and short with much more damage

For 1h axes, swords, and picks, repeat the exercise.   (That would count up to 16 "equally good" weps, fill in the gaps with minor adjustments, perhaps 1 hammer have a stab/thrust/or pierce-stab option etc.  Price and requirements should be kept out of the equation. Unless requirements get more involved, more about that further down.)

Make a similar but slightly less powerful group for the 1h+2h weapons. (versatility should cost performance)

For 2h swords its more complex than 1h hammers because many have both cut and pierce options. (using bad-medium-good-great here..)

1a. fast and short, great pierce, bad cut
1b. fast and short, bad pierce, great cut

2a. fast and long, medium pierce, bad cut
2b. fast and long, bad pierce, medium cut

3a. slow and long, great pierce, bad cut
3b. slow and long, bad pierce, great cut

4a. short and slow, good pierce, great cut
4b. short and slow, great pierce, good cut

That's 8 "archetypes" of the extremes for the classic 2h swords. The archetypes should be stronger than the all-rounders, (because versatility is performance.)

I dunno how to make 3d graphs, but in general:

Range and Speed and Damage (Pierce/Cut/Blunt/Attack Directions) should always come up to 0 Zero for all weapons.

There should be no Elite OMG REALLY EXPENSIVE type weapons. (There can be prices, but they should mostly be connected to looks&size)

REQUIREMENTS FOR WEAPONS
First all of that, and now all this to throw into the equation..  8-)

No1. Like with prices, requirements should not influence the "goodness" of a weapon. It's just a question of level=time. (almost..)

Basically I could see requirements playing a bigger role. Perhaps some weapons would require AGI in stead of STR to be used?
Anyway, STR requirements should be upped a notch in general. Now there is nothing stopping myself picking up a flamby with my 18STR and 31 Agi. (lvl 40 but none the less.. With 200 2h wpf, as well as 140 throwing, this is OP.) This also goes even more for armors, but that I will post a new post for..

A good example of a requirement-type weapon would be one of the heaviest axes:
"HEAVY POLEARM AXE"
Requirement 24 STR
Length: 125
SwingDamage: 55 (!)
Speed Rating: 70(!)
thrust damage 15 blunt

Nowadays, an AGI-pumping freak with 15 str can use the following:

Great Long Axe
weight 3.5
difficulty 14
spd rtng 92
weapon length 125
swing damage 46 cut
thrust damage 15 blunt

STR requirements could be a way to ensure that AGI/WPF doesn't get abused to get lightning-speed super-heavy weapons. (As has been witnessed..) To give the heavy weapons back their charm, they could have a damage bonus..

Anyway.. tired now time to go to sleep! Let me know your thoughts :-)
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Offline Alex_C

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 10:10:06 am »
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+1 to pretty much all of this. It's a wall o' text goddammit, but I like it! =D

It's interesting that in a way, Native manages to get more of this 'specialization' than cRPG, but then that's because they have it easy as everyone has around the same stats and there are fewer weapons. =P

Offline Drubezator

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 10:38:54 am »
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Interesting thoughts,
but to be honest i like it more how it is now, its more real-like. In real the best and most versatile weapons (swords in general for example) were verry craftman skill dependent and therefore it cost alot money, but were way better than other weapons (well balanced, made of good steel so it can be more sharp and durable etc.). Ofc there can be some (not all, just some) great weapons coz of it special use which are very cheap like pike, great hammer, polehammer or axes. But thats the way how it is now... I often play with cheap Goedendag or morningstar even if i got tears, flamberge, longsword and many more weapons... and it works great.

Some weapons are better, some are worse, like poeple, thats the life. Guys who complain about any gear (OMG WTF! its OP, nerf it FFS! etc.) just lack skill. If u are good enough and got decent character build you can take anything and kill anyone. Did u know that u can chamberblock with stone in your hand? ;-)

I believe in chadz, he doing well. I like it how Crpg is now, its not perfect, but it cannot be! Ussualy many patches and changes screws the game.

Offline Espu

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 10:40:45 am »
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Making weapons more heavily specialized could easily lead to even more repetitive behavior by players. Tears is a stabbing sword already, imagine what would happen if it was even better at stabbing and worse in cutting? Even more lolstabbing.

This isn't necessarily a problem. As you say, specializing forces people to concentrate on specific type of fighting instead of being lvl 40 juggernauts that kill everything around them.

Level cap will already make the juggernaut builds inexistent and upkeep hopefully makes mid-tier equipment more useful. For these reasons I'm not sure if it's necessary to make such radical changes. A big part of choosing gear should be the looks, so we can actually see some themed, cool-looking people instead of everyone using the most optimal gearset for their build.


Offline Alex_C

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 10:41:23 am »
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Did u know that u can chamberblock with stone in your hand? ;-)

Did you know that you don't need the stone? ;-)

Offline Drubezator

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 11:01:49 am »
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Yea i know, made some chamberblocks with barehands already :-) but u need at least that stone to deal any dmg to guy in armor.

Offline Shigeru

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 11:39:07 am »
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It's an interesting concept to be sure, but I think that before we worry about this we should wait for the patch to arrive and see how it and the new concepts/gear affect how we play the game.

Offline Thomek

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 01:22:11 pm »
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@Drubezator
The Goedendag was actually an awesome weapon in its day and for its use :-)

I'm not an historical expert, but if you look at weapon development overall they are all just sticks of various materials and weight. Their effectiveness came down to training of forces, tactical use on the battlefield and.. money :-)

And I'm not saying Tears should only be stabby stab, but that there should be a very stabby sword like that. (Tears should be nerfed cmon!)

The lolthrusters should have a weapon too, but that weapon should sacrifice a lot in the swings or speed or range.
Balancing as we do it now should still exist and continue as long as is needed.. (practically neverending though)

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Offline Seawied

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 01:23:53 pm »
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I strongly agree with the philosophy thomek has outlined. It would give a much more personal flavor to your character, unlike the current hierarchy we have in weapons and armor.

I'm an advocate of this being applied to armor as well and getting rid of the upkeep system we have planned.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Drubezator

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 01:52:13 pm »
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I think players shouldnt be able to interfere with game mechanics and balance, coz they will mess it up. Everyone wants something else and if u want or not, your view is subjective. Even if the game will be done anyhow there will be someone who will complain about it. So my opinion is: let it on chadz he seems much more capable to do good game balance than anyone of us.

PS: I say buff tears!

Offline Seawied

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2011, 01:55:59 pm »
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I think players shouldnt be able to interfere with game mechanics and balance, coz they will mess it up. Everyone wants something else and if u want or not, your view is subjective. Even if the game will be done anyhow there will be someone who will complain about it. So my opinion is: let it on chadz he seems much more capable to do good game balance than anyone of us.

PS: I say buff tears!

So we should just all shut up and pretend the game is balanced? Discussion brings up many bad ideas, but occasionally it brings up a really good idea. Player feedback can also be a good indication of the overall balance of the game.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Thomek

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 02:02:03 pm »
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Drubezator, player feedback and ideas are important for game balance.. In the way that if the raging is loud enough, the guys on top starts to discuss, and maybe.. just maybe move their ass :-)

And they have done it before, and will do it again. How do you think we got archers nerfed so many times? Main reason was of course the insane archers that were popping up everywhere..

This balance-board is here for a reason, although it is a bit hidden and buried lol :-)
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Offline Babelfish

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2011, 07:42:25 pm »
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Agree on every point in your post thomek.

Every weapon should have a slight disadvantage and advantage over other weapons, currently thats not the case in cRPG.

Offline Jarlek

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 08:20:58 pm »
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These improvements are approved by the Zapper!

And on the note of prices. What about them all have the same same price, but there are different tiers of weapons like peasant tier is cost lol amount of money, then the next tier is a new set of the same archetypes but better overall damage/speed/length etc. and so on until you get in the OMFG tier which cost shitloads of money but are the best (still with the different archetypes)

Then we could get like a middle tier, long reach, fast speed, low damage, trying to fend of a high tier, short reach, slow speed, high damage, and it would still be possible for the middle level guy to win (as opposed to shit tincan! shields up, back off, hope one of our tincans see him)

Personally I would like to see a middle level guy with the short/slow/high damage managing to rush up to a tincan with long reach/fast/low damage and destroy him because of his close posture. (imagine a plate dude with longsword being hit with a mace-wielding mailwearing suicidesquad-man  :D)
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Offline Thomek

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Re: A new philosophy for weapon balance.
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2011, 07:31:57 pm »
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bumping this for new readers :-)

made it when not many people were yet on these forums.
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