Author Topic: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important  (Read 3763 times)

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Offline Dach

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 03:57:46 am »
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+100  :D
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Offline SPQR

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 04:10:18 am »
+1
SPQR, I like you. Can we be friends?

Sure. Just send 10 dollars to:

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Quote
Yeah, most definitely. Hopefully this system would change that mindset to a more individualistic one though. Count on egoism to save the day.

That's a good point. The clan tax will at least make it easier for clan leaders in one sense of micromanagement. Here's what I'm thinking... Currently, you can only "reinforce" someone by transferring all your stuff to them. Under SPQR's system, that would be highly impractical. In my vision, I'd have reinforcement more as if you're within the attack radius of a battle, you "combine" your army with theirs, but you still command your own roster and hire for it. Now that we have roster size scaling with army size, we could also scale individual roster sizes appropriately once the reinforcement timer is over.

Eg. If a knight is within range of a battle between an allied knight and some other party, he could reinforce the knight, but both knights would maintain individual control over their rosters.

Eg. If a knight is within range of a battle between an allied noble and many allied knits and some other party, he could reinforce his allies, and have control over his own roster, but his allied noble would also be able to control his roster.

In this way, if the fief owner is away the day it's attacked, any allies in the vicinity can still reinforce and take command of their respective rosters and form up some kind of defense.

This is more a concept than anything, because I'm sure I've overlooked a lot of things, but the details can be changed.

One suggestion I've seen was in Kesh's thread taht I liked was an option to "link" your character to someone else on the map and travel whereever they go, like a convoy. So for instance, a 5,000 man army could be joined by a half dozen smaller forces, and they could all link onto the big army and automatically travel where-ever it went. If the convoy is attacked, everyone linked to it would automatically pool all their troops and gold into the battle. Here is the link: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14443.0.html

It's pretty cool stuff, especially in that it would allow a bunch of clan-less players to link together into one giant roaming warband without having to give up all their troops/gold.
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Offline PhantomZero

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2011, 04:35:32 am »
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One suggestion I've seen was in Kesh's thread taht I liked was an option to "link" your character to someone else on the map and travel whereever they go, like a convoy. So for instance, a 5,000 man army could be joined by a half dozen smaller forces, and they could all link onto the big army and automatically travel where-ever it went. If the convoy is attacked, everyone linked to it would automatically pool all their troops and gold into the battle. Here is the link: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,14443.0.html

It's pretty cool stuff, especially in that it would allow a bunch of clan-less players to link together into one giant roaming warband without having to give up all their troops/gold.

A combination of your suggestions, plus allowing knights to follow captains, captains to follow nobles, nobles to follow lords, would solve the problem of "Welp we got attacked and Timmy didn't turn in his troops in time." It would also allow people to keep their "power".

It would be a big deal for a land-owning Lord to come out onto the battlefield, seeing as he would have to mostly be responsible for running the day to day of his fiefs.

However, the problem with combining everything is what happens with the equipment and troops? Are troops just equally distributed back to the commanders? What about equipment? Would equipment just be used normally and whatever was left sent back to the original owners?
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2011, 04:40:14 am »
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Some good ideas...I think I actually agree with them. Took me a bit of reading and considering the aspects of it all in my head, but the tax system certainly makes sense and is a very good idea.

Funnily enough your ideas combat a lot of the concerns I had in the thread chadz made about larger armies paying more for upkeep.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 04:44:47 am by Overdriven »

Offline Overdriven

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 05:25:44 am »
-1
Sorry for the double post, but I just thought of another idea, linked to an idea from that other thread that ties in with yours. It id my belief that one of the major thing strat suffers from is no real system of power. You highlighted the ranks issue, but i want to take it a bit further.

Basically the issue is how to sustain large armies, but give smaller armies advantages/more viability/power I.E the individuals in clans.

Another balancing object I thought of related to troop pay. Currently the system is that once a leader runs out of gold, the troops bleed away at a rate of knots. But this seems inaccurate to me. In large combined armies, individual pay not making it to the troops was a common thing, they wouldn't run away the immediate moment the army runs out of gold. A lot of this was for a variety of reasons. For instance, in Edward I campaigns, he had to rely on his lords providing troops for a fixed term. If the King went to war and it was approved by the Magnates, the individual Earl's of the realm were legally obligated to provide troops for a certain period of time, it was largely up to the Earl's to fund their pay and equipment and it was up to the King to fund the supplies whilst on campaign. In turn the individuals who made up the bulk of the army were required a fixed term service by the Earl's as well, for which they would be paid (but it was well known for this pay to be very back dated, you've gotta love the English ability to keep records). Once that time was over, the Earl's had the right to leave and take their troops with them and the King could do bugger all about it.

So the idea is this. Add a function that allows for the highest ranks (rank 4 in this case but this could need a new higher rank 5) to 'demand' troops for a war in a realm from the lower ranks. If the lower ranks approve of this, then troops are automatically transferred to the person demanding them, along with the gold needed to support their 'upkeep' (troop pay, possibly equipment). Once this has been approved, set a time limit for the main army to hold the troops, for instance 72 hours as a random example. This gives the leader time to make an attack and fight it. This could be automatically defined by code, or there could be options for the clans to agree upon. For example when the option to approve the transfer is made, a clan member could select either '3 days, 5 days, 7 days' and the gold they are required to send would be increased to cover the 'pay' for this period.

Finally, once this time ends a portion of the troops automatically transferred get transferred back to the original Lord depending on how many troops that Lord originally gave and casualties ect to the overall army ect. You would then have a time limit in that the rank 4 who demanded the troops cannot demand any more until this limit is over or if you redemanded troops again there would be some kind of penalty. For instance, perhaps the rank 4 having to pay a larger portion of the upkeep from their personal 'bank' of money on the second round of demanding and if they run out, it is at this point the troops run away, as this would reflect concerns that Earls and magnates might have when being asked to provide more troops for a longer period.

Of course this would require balancing of the original idea. You would have to limit the amount of rank 4's allowed depending on the size of a clan or add a new rank 5 that would essentially be a King. As in have all the powers of those below but could use this feature to gather an army, obviously there would have to be ways to 'over throw' this king if needed.

This is all very rough ideas I'm spewing out now, as it is 4:30 am here. But I was interested to see how such a system could be implemented in strat given the work that would be needed to implement it, as it was something many early countries had to do and it gave the individual Earl's and Magnates A LOT of power.

IMPORTANT EDIT:

I just saw the thing about allowing individuals to 'link' to someone. I think my system could be implemented with this. If the rank 4 who demanded the troops is approved by an individual, then that individuals entire force could automatically move to the rank 4 and the individual would have no ability to move it until this fixed term agreed upon was up or, perhaps they would have to stay within a certain range of the rank 4 who made the demand and so the ability to raid ect could be maintained yet when the main battle comes, the troops would be pooled. When this time ends they perhaps automatically move back to the nearest clan owned fief. This could be an easier way of managing the 'linking' idea without having to have constant communication.

Also it's possible that you would have to make it so that the rank 4/king received no more troops/gold automatically in your system once a certain portion of members had joined/transferred stuff to you and they were out of a certain range of the closest fief. You would also have to shift your tax % around a bit as well I think. I believe that in my system, these demands could only be made to ranks 2 and 3 because they would need to be the more active members. As such the tax rate for rank 1's should be higher to compensate for their inactivity, whilst perhaps the upkeep for troops in their rank be lower due to the fact they won't be able to maintain gold/troop ratios so easily.

Anyway, this is basically a potential solution for limiting large armies to rarer occurances of really big/important battles, encouraging smaller armies and individuals, yet reducing the amount of micromanagement/economic penalties needed to do it.

I apologise if that was long winded at all and not clear in places/a  bit scatty. But it's late and I only thought of this about 2 hours ago  :P
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 06:53:03 am by Overdriven »

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 06:51:59 am »
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This is the best strat suggestion ever!
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Offline Panoply

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 07:25:39 am »
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One suggestion I've seen was in Kesh's thread taht I liked was an option to "link" your character to someone else on the map and travel whereever they go, like a convoy.

Oh yeah, that's a sweet idea, I remember thinking that when I first read it too. It would be a lot simpler to implement than the one I suggested as well. I'd love to see factionless warbands. It shouldn't be too hard to build up on a simple linking system either.

A combination of your suggestions, plus allowing knights to follow captains, captains to follow nobles, nobles to follow lords, would solve the problem of "Welp we got attacked and Timmy didn't turn in his troops in time." It would also allow people to keep their "power".

It would be a big deal for a land-owning Lord to come out onto the battlefield, seeing as he would have to mostly be responsible for running the day to day of his fiefs.

However, the problem with combining everything is what happens with the equipment and troops? Are troops just equally distributed back to the commanders? What about equipment? Would equipment just be used normally and whatever was left sent back to the original owners?

Yeah, those sorts of details would depend a lot on coding practicality. I think ideally, you'd be able to separate tickets and equipment, and track losses individually for each party involved like in single player, but I'm not sure if that's possible.

Of course, the simpler implementation would be to just add each strat player's equipment to the equipment pool, and divvy up remaining troops in a proportional manner. I don't think that'd be too difficult to work out.

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 07:26:22 am »
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Start a poll on this thread and get chadz's attention on irc, this has some golden ideas.
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Offline SPQR

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 07:35:54 am »
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Start a poll on this thread and get chadz's attention on irc, this has some golden ideas.

Is that what you have to do to get chadz to notice stuff?
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Offline chadz

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2011, 09:23:23 am »
+3
I'm sold, more or less.

Also, I'm shocked that fief transfer can be done by the faction leader - looks like a dev bug, that was never intended :)


Offline okiN

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2011, 10:03:18 am »
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What, seriously? I never thought to tell you because I assumed you knew. :lol:

As for the suggestion, I'm afraid it doesn't seem to address the problem of inactive members spamming their leaders with free troops/gold. You may not get your hands on the stuff they have left over from the tax, but the stuff that gets sent up is still a big bonus, now they just don't even have to come online to push the button. It seems to me the automatic army link-up feature you mentioned later would probably make this even worse.

In general, though, it does sound like a fun idea.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 10:43:50 am by okiN »
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Offline dynamike

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2011, 03:52:57 pm »
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Love the idea SPQR, it has a lot of potential!

I would like to have one additional rank however, to make sure somebody (clan leader) stays on top of a faction and make sure it develops in the right direction.

This additional rank "5 - King" can assign Lords (rank 4) and exist only ONCE in a faction. By having all fief owning members be rank 4 and having the same power as the clan leader, you create too much of a wild card and I doubt the clan leader would want to assign any fiefs to anyone but himself.

In our clan for example, our leader would be rank 5 while his "hands" and war council members could be rank 4. The rest of the officers could be rank 2 or 3 respectively.

I also like that you mentioned the idea of Warbands, as it ties nicely into your approach. Allow me to quote myself from the other thread:

(click to show/hide)

Anything that motivates smaller and individual players to participate more in Strat is a win in my eyes!
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Offline Beans

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2011, 04:14:36 pm »
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Love the fief ownership idea. It could really help mix up the way things go.

Offline SPQR

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2011, 05:18:30 pm »
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I'm sold, more or less.

Also, I'm shocked that fief transfer can be done by the faction leader - looks like a dev bug, that was never intended :)

I'd glad you like the idea. I did a whole lot of excel spreadsheeting to make sure it was actually a plausible idea and wouldn't destroy the economy or something.

Fief transfers can actually be done by anyone who is Rank 10 I believe. LLJK has like six Rank 10 players so its rare that any of us own the same fiefs two days in a row. Every time I log on the purple text that says which fiefs I own today is a surprise. Its kinda lame!

What, seriously? I never thought to tell you because I assumed you knew. :lol:

As for the suggestion, I'm afraid it doesn't seem to address the problem of inactive members spamming their leaders with free troops/gold. You may not get your hands on the stuff they have left over from the tax, but the stuff that gets sent up is still a big bonus, now they just don't even have to come online to push the button. It seems to me the automatic army link-up feature you mentioned later would probably make this even worse.

In general, though, it does sound like a fun idea.

Well inactive members could potentially sit in a city forever and give the leaders free gold but inactive players wouldn't be able to stay in a village recruiting a gigantic army anymore without even logging on like they can now. Because, all their money will be sent up in taxes eventually and they will be kicked out. So I think it's a fair trade-off.

My thought process is: what is fun in strategus?
Two things really: The battles, and building your little army

Now, currently everyone can participate in the battles, but only the top 10% really get a chance to build their own force. Everyone else is expected to turn absolutely everything in to the clan.

This way, even the lowliest player can still build up a little retinue of their own, kit them out in whatever equipment they please, and maybe start a fight or two if they see someone near their turf, or go on campaign with the army and help clean up stragglers. Anything to get them out of those damn fiefs!
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Offline SPQR

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Re: Bring Feudalism to Strategus - Making the individual player important
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 05:26:00 pm »
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Love the idea SPQR, it has a lot of potential!

I would like to have one additional rank however, to make sure somebody (clan leader) stays on top of a faction and make sure it develops in the right direction.

This additional rank "5 - King" can assign Lords (rank 4) and exist only ONCE in a faction. By having all fief owning members be rank 4 and having the same power as the clan leader, you create too much of a wild card and I doubt the clan leader would want to assign any fiefs to anyone but himself.

In our clan for example, our leader would be rank 5 while his "hands" and war council members could be rank 4. The rest of the officers could be rank 2 or 3 respectively.

I also like that you mentioned the idea of Warbands, as it ties nicely into your approach. Allow me to quote myself from the other thread:

(click to show/hide)

Anything that motivates smaller and individual players to participate more in Strat is a win in my eyes!

Yeah that would work fine too.

Perhaps it would be possible to have two different types of "Clan Government". If you assign a Rank 5, then he acts as King as you describe. If you only have Rank 4's then it acts as a kind of "Council" or Republic, where each has equal amounts of power and perhaps a way to "vote" on who gets a new fief.

For instance in the area where you can currently assign fiefs (the one with the pulldown menu) when there is an unassigned fief allow it to select who you want to vote for, from the eligible Rank 4 members, and click "Vote". After enough votes are tallied the fief is assigned to whoever gets the most votes (similar to native). Also possibly have it so that the more fiefs you already own the less voting power you have. So:
No fiefs - 4 votes
1 Fief - 3 votes
2 Fiefs - 2 Votes
Ect.

I dunno, just some random thoughts.

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