NA comm. siege rotation: seriously

[Digglez]

So finally after 2 months of complaints we get a map rotation change.  Does the admin read any of the threads on the subject, ask long-time siege vets for advice, poll current siege players........nope.  Instead he heavy handily runs 9 native only maps.

Dude what are you thinking?  Can you please make some informed decisions since YOU NEVER PLAY SIEGE, EVER.  You actually havent helped the problem at all, in fact its possible you made it worse.  Close to half of the native only maps you put in are some of the worst balanced maps that were in the rotation.

People want a good fight, not a cakewalk or impossible odds...and you are not delivering on that.  We've seen siege #'s drop dramatically when you messed with banner balance and when you continue to run bugged maps.  You've taken the first step here towards addressing the situation which we all appreciate and want.  Please look into a better way of deciding or instituting the rotation.  As always I'll be offering my cynical veteran hardcore advice =)


SIEGE ATTACK

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I can count on 2 hands the number of times I've seen defense win.

Problems with this map
1) Outside ladders make map impossible to defend.  there is too much ground to cover and you pretty much HAVE to have someone suicide to take out the ladders.  its very difficult to hit well placed ladders and no easy way to get outside without dying.  attackers can bring ladder after ladder after ladder and defenders cant keep up because attackers are literally only 5 seconds away from the walls.

2) once the siege ramp is down, defensive archers are done for.  there is nowhere they can hide and snipe from, they're just fodder.  its a vicious cycle because once enemies get ahold of walls, the enemy archers setup and kill any opposing defender archers that spawn since they cant hide behind any cover.

3) hanging ladders.  i wouldnt know if they're against the rules or not because admins havent made any clarification to the rules.  sometimes admins do say 'dont do this' or 'illegal ladder' but nothing is ever done about it. happens every time, over and over.

I used to place these ladders myself, but seeing how easy they make the map I stopped bringing my own.  I will use one if its there but i never make them anymore.  It really trivalizes the map.

4) There is all of 1 chokepoint on this map and its not that hard to get around.  most good maps have several chokepoints that groups of defenders can actually slow or stop the flow of attackers.  Attackers can easily bypass the siege ramp by placing ladders onto the roof and then flank the defenders or just go up one of many ladders on the walls.

I'll be posting more on the other maps when time allows.

[awesomeasaurus]

I am a Siege Attack hater. It is an awful and unbalanced map. When these sorts of scenes come into the rotation I find myself inclined to leave the server, unless I am on the winning side!

I think it is important to look to other mods or servers (EU?) for balanced siege scenes.

Because of my dismay with the past siege maps I designed my own, though I do not have the skills or desire to learn the skills to create it myself. http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,13340.0.html Post #6. I am willing to collaborate with scene editors to create fair and balanced siege scenes because it is my favorite game type.

[Dasty]

I was the one who changed the map rotation because Airith has been MIA for 2 weeks now. I tried to find help to sort out the rotation because I never play siege but no one wanted to help when I asked. If you want, you can help me sort the rotation out sometime this week. Just pick a time from roughly 7-10EST on Monday or Friday that you can hop into a server for an hour and go through all the maps with me.

[Jacko]

Dasty, why don't you just pick up the EU rotation and work from there?

[Dasty]

Because people play on the community siege server because we have better maps... starting from the EU rotation would make my job harder as I would need to replace more maps.

If people don't like the rotation, they should be less lazy and help me find a solution that everyone will enjoy...

[Digglez]

Thanks for being open to suggestions Dasty.  I played siege last nite and got all the names of the maps, and honestly its not as bad as I thought.  I will work to get you a review of those maps and look thru the old ones to tell ya which I believe are well balanced.

[Lt_Anders]

I'll help ya out digglez.

This is the maps that I know of and are probably best for being put back in.(if in rotation and i didn't like, i posted as such)

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FROM AIRITH'S POST ON SIEGE.

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#str_blank_25 Castle_Hideout
Decent Map, Still in rotation ATM.  Should stay.


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#str_blank_54 Khirin_Castle
Another Good map. Well balanced, with multiple attack avenues. Can be attacked/defended based on the teams.

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#str_blank_76 Tsardom_Castle
Slight weighting towards defender. 3 Avenues of standard attack, slightly more with the use of ladders. Defenders spawn way up out of the way.

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#str_blank_80 Holmet_Castle
Mixed Opinions. Far easier to attack than defend.

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Haima Castle
Mixed again. See more attacker wins than defense.

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#str_blank_81 Greipenfurt_Castle
Like this map,Don't know if fully balanced, but I'd say most people enjoy this.

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Ulbas Castle
90% defender win rate. Heavily weighted for defenders. Organized defenders will almost never lose this.

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Rhudkhan
In Rotation ATM. Slighlty more favored to attackers. Loss of Small gate is guaranteed loss. Spawns wacky for defenders.

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Turin
Mixed. I say better not in than in, but it's decent enough.

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#str_blank_85 Citadel
In Rotation ATM. Keep it.

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#str_blank_86 Sea_Raid
Fun, some may like it. Don't keep it.(Others may Disagree)

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Mahdaar
Balanced. Keep map.

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Jamayyed
IN Rotation ATM. Remove the map, far to weighted towards attackers.

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Foothold
Alright map. Holding gatehouses keeps this map balanced. Not good on small player numbers.

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Hailes
My most favorite map. I think one of the best balanced siege maps.

[Digglez]

I pretty much agree with your findings Anders. 

Maps to be Removed
Jamayyed.  while fun, hugely favors attackers
Ulbas.  similar to Jamayyed but in defenders favor


Maps that need to be watched closely
Both Hillfort maps
Haima
Rudkham
SeaRaid



Although balance wise prob fairly even, I think the 2 Steppe Castles & Greipenfurt should go.  They're just boring to play maps that generally kill population.

Also, what was the name of the newer map that some ppl have FPS issues on due to the torches inside the castle and green moat outside?  If the lighting was removed it would be great balanced map.

[Dasty]

This info is really great, I will remove the maps that you have stated to be removed soon.

In the mean time, come up with maps that you would like to be put back into rotation that were removed.

Here is a list of whats in right now and a list of names of all of the maps we have availible.

Current:
Castle_Hideout
Forest_Attck
Siege_Attack
Holmet_Castle
Siege_Defense
Rudkhan_Castle
Citadel
Jamayyed_Castle
Hailes_Castle


Available:
Hailes_Castle
Rudkhan_Castle
Turin_Castle
Brunwud_Castle
Mahdaar_Castle
Jameyyed_Castle
Steppe_Castle
Siege_Defense
Steppe_Castle_2
Siege_Attack
City_Siege
Khirin_Castle
Helm's_Deep
Waedor_Castle
Tsardom_Castle
Holmet_Castle
Greipenfurt_Castle
River_Village
Jammadi_Castle
Phoenix_Castle
Citadel
Something
Something_2
Something_3
Winter_Castle
Castle_Rane
Tir_Asleen
Bodiam_Castle
Island_Fortress
King's_Retreat
Prison_Break
Oceanfront_Castle
Krak_des_Chevaliers
Sherwood_Lair

I have little to no idea what the names mean in terms of what the map is/looks like.

[awesomeasaurus]

I agree with Digglez's and Argoth's recommendations.

I personally would recommend these two maps to be added:

Northern Eye
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12977.0.html
and
Jammadi Castle (this was present previously right?)
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2448.0.html


With that list of available maps... Maybe make them all playable and reset the QMD/QMU votes with a server message to vote?

[Dasty]

I took out Jammadi due to it being incredibly easy to take if you use a ladder or two.

[Digglez]

I took out Jammadi due to it being incredibly easy to take if you use a ladder or two.

But does server have the most recent version?  What you've been running in the past is an outdated version.  Map creator has updated map thats easier on defenders.

[ICEMAN1779]

I will post all the maps i made with names and pics tonight to help you guys figer this mess out.

[Duster]

I'd like to see sea raid put back in, it is a very fun map to play, albiet a bit unbalanced.

[Memento_Mori]

This info is really great, I will remove the maps that you have stated to be removed soon.

In the mean time, come up with maps that you would like to be put back into rotation that were removed.

Here is a list of whats in right now and a list of names of all of the maps we have availible.

Current:
Castle_Hideout
Forest_Attck
Siege_Attack
Holmet_Castle
Siege_Defense
Rudkhan_Castle
Citadel
Jamayyed_Castle
Hailes_Castle

SIEGE ATTACK

Terrible attackers map, most defenders won't even spawn if they've been switched to defence because it is 96% of the time a loss.

(I made up a random percentage, but defenders rarely win)

objective for attackers is simply : FLOOD IN, eventually take flag, win

Defenders :  Hold flag and hold siege tower until eventually over run and lose.


This map would be "okay" if there weren't ladders that you can just throw down once off the siege tower that makes winning this map even easier.
(you have to get on the walls to break the ladders they place, the ladders are protected by a constant flood of ATTACKERS respawning (so they have full health) it's near impossible to defend.


Sorry if this was mentioned, kinda skim read the thread.

I agree with Digglez's and Argoth's recommendations.

I personally would recommend these two maps to be added:

Northern Eye
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,12977.0.html
and
Jammadi Castle (this was present previously right?)
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2448.0.html


With that list of available maps... Maybe make them all playable and reset the QMD/QMU votes with a server message to vote?

Jammadi Castle is hard to defend, and very easy to attack I would suggest keeping this map outta here unless they can make a way up to the circle walls defending the flag, since thats where attackers will ladder and defenders have to run through the constant flood of respawning attackers to break them.

(all the attackers need to do is break the gate and start the constant flood of ladders and full health attackers, also easily taken in the first 30 seconds to 1 minute due to how huge the map is. Takes forever for defenders to make it to the flag if they don't spawn right next to it.)