Weapons which need attention

[Belmont]

In this post I will try to collect all the weapons which are heavily outclassed by similar (or even cheaper) weapons in order for the balance team to "fix" them. Feel free to post any weapon that you think should be changed in order to be worth buying/using in a similar structure.

(click to show/hide)

War Cleaver   5046   
weight 3.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 92
weapon length 120
swing damage 43, cut
thrust damage 0 cut
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced

(click to show/hide)

Two Handed Sword   5444   
weight 2.25
requirement 11
spd rtng 96
weapon length 110
swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

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Longsword   5123   
weight 1.8
requirement 9
spd rtng 98
weapon length 106
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Secondary Mode

Now that we have the three swords let's compare them.
Damage(slash): 43 vs 38 vs 36
Damage(piercing): 0 vs 25 vs 25
Speed: 92 vs 96 vs 98
Length: 120 vs 110 vs 106
Other: Unbalanced vs Secondary mode vs Secondary mode

The war cleaver is currently not worth the price, it lacks a thrust (which is ridiculously good thanks to new animation), is unbalanced and is slower than other weapons in the same price range on top of it. When we compare it to an "axe" weapon in the same category it is even easier to see that the war cleaver needs some love:

(click to show/hide)

Great Bardiche   4500   
weight 3.25
requirement 15
spd rtng 89
weapon length 116
swing damage 44, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield

Similar statistics to the war cleaver except that it sports a "bonus against shields" modifier which makes it a lot more useful than the war cleaver.

Suggestion: Add a bonus against shields modifier.

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Since the Claymore was announced I was hoping that it would take place as a sword between the Tears/Cookies and the Flamberge (German/Danish respectively) as there are enough swords in the same category so I was quite surprised when it was added as another sword in the same tier. I have a few suggestions about what could be done with the Claymore but let us first compare the statistics of the weapon:

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Heavy Great Sword   9001   
weight 2.75
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 120
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

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Great Sword   9510   
weight 2.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 93
weapon length 120
swing damage 37, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

(click to show/hide)

Highland Claymore   9890   
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 90
weapon length 120
swing damage 43, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

(click to show/hide)

Sword of War   9901   
weight 3
requirement 14
spd rtng 93
weapon length 121
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

(click to show/hide)

Nodachi   10589   
weight 3.5
requirement 11
spd rtng 92
weapon length 125
swing damage 43, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback

(click to show/hide)

German Greatsword   11686   
weight 2.5
requirement 14
spd rtng 92
weapon length 123
swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

(click to show/hide)

Danish Greatsword   12248   
weight 2.5
requirement 14
spd rtng 92
weapon length 124
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 27 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode

Damage(slash): 39 vs 37 vs 43 vs 40 vs 43 vs 38 vs 40
Damage(piercing): 25 vs 30 vs 25 vs 26 vs 0 vs 30 vs 27
Speed: 94 vs 93 vs 90 vs 93 vs 92 vs 92 vs 92
Length: 120 vs 120 vs 120 vs 121 vs 125 vs 123 vs 124
Other: Secondary mode for all except Nodachi

The Claymore excels in absoluty no category yet it still has the worst speed of all these swords. The Claymore does not fill the role of a hybrid between the Danish and German sword as it is already taken by the Sword of War (which is three points faster than the Claymore). The main problem the Claymore faces is that it slightly overlaps with the Nodachi:

Damage(slash): 43 vs 43
Damage(piercing): 25 vs 0
Speed: 90 vs 92
Length: 120 vs 125
Other: Secondary mode vs nothing

These two swords are quite similar (even more so before the speed nerf) and are currently filling the same role of a high power sword that is not the Flamberge, however, having two of these has always seemed to me as redundant. As I wrote before, I believe the Claymore would be much more useful a sword between the Danish/German and the Flamberge.

Suggestion:
Damage(slash): 43 -> 45
Damage(piercing): 25 -> 21 (Reduced because of the extra range + 2h stab animation)
Speed: 90 -> 90 (89?)
Length: 120 -> 135 (130?)
Req: 15 -> 17

Comments/suggestions about this suggestion regarding the Claymore?

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The whole short sword line.
Well, for the basic versions i can see some tiers, but the masterpiece ones are nearly identically.

(click to show/hide)

gold 1380   
weight 1
requirement 3
spd rtng 102
weapon length 81
swing damage 26, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce
Gen1= 102spd 28cut 26pierce
Gen2= 103spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen3= 104spd 30cut 28pierce

(click to show/hide)

gold 2596   
weight 1
requirement 4
spd rtng 103
weapon length 81
swing damage 26, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce
Gen1= 103spd 28cut 26pierce
Gen2= 104spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen3= 105spd 30cut 28pierce
   

(click to show/hide)

gold 3744
weight 1
requirement 7
spd rtng 103
weapon length 80
swing damage 27, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Gen1= 103spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen2= 104spd 30cut 27pierce
Gen3= 105spd 30cut 28pierce
   

(click to show/hide)

gold 4874   
weight 1
requirement 6
spd rtng 102
weapon length 86
swing damage 27, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Gen1= 102spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen2= 103spd 30cut 27pierce
Gen3= 104spd 30cut 28pierce
   

So in the worst case i have to pay 3.5k gold more for 5 cm more blade lenght.

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Nerfing the nordic sword, you guys inadvertently made the knightly arming sword the better deal.

Nordic Champion Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 21 pierce

Knightly Arming Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 97
weapon length 102
swing damage 31, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce

At baseline, they have the same speed, same length and the Knightly has 1 less cut but 3 more pierce. Fully heir-loomed, though, they have the same cut damage yet the knightly has more pierce and is 1,000 gold cheaper.

Proposal: Nerf the pierce of Nordic Champion and Sarranid Cav sword down -2 to 19 and 17 baseline respectively. Buff the cut damage at baseline and/or at masterwork to 38 and 39 cut respectively. These are exclusively chopping swords, and their damage should reflect that. To keep the Grosse Messer viable, bump its speed back up to 100 or 101 baseline like it was before. Speed is perfect on Champion and Cav swords.

In short: (heirloomed)
Knightly Arming; 36 cut @ 99 speed
Grosse Messer; 38 cut @102/103 speed
Nordic Champion; 38 cut @99 speed
Sarranid Cav; 39 cut @97 speed

Maintains more dmg = less speed. Knightly arming will do less cut but more pierce, so will be more rounded like the espada or side sword. Grosse Messer will be faster for close-in work, as it was before. Champion will slash better but have even less viable frontal stab. Sarranid cav will have a little more damage for such a slow speed and a futile stab.

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Heavy Great Sword
weight 2.75
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 120
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce

Great Sword
weight 2.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 93
weapon length 120
swing damage 37, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce

Not sure if this was an oversight or just part of balance, but something that has Heavy in its name and weighs .25 more probably shouldn't be 1 speed faster.

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(click to show/hide)

   
weight 2.75
requirement 10
spd rtng 92
weapon length 115
swing damage 42, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback

(click to show/hide)

weight 2.75
requirement 10
spd rtng 96
weapon length 115
swing damage 40, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback

2 damage for 4 speed, insane.

[UrLukur]

Great berdiche is shorter thanks to animations you know ? War cleaver still do fine, it's long enough and deal crapload of damage.

[Belmont]

Great berdiche is shorter thanks to animations you know ? War cleaver still do fine, it's long enough and deal crapload of damage.

Great Bardiche is a 2h weapon.

[UrLukur]

Great Bardiche is a 2h weapon.

Ouch. But it's slower and shorter.

[Belmont]

Ouch. But it's slower and shorter.

A difference of 4 points is quite hard to notice in-game (some people are able to use even small differences properly however!) and the speed is still comparable to high tier poleaxes (89, 90 and 92 respectively).
Adding a "bonus against shields" modifier to the war cleaver would make it a very unique weapon (as it would be the only sword with this modifier) while retaining its unbalanced tag.

[Tired]

Don't know how to do that fancy spoiler button thing, but:

Highland Claymore
9890 Gold
90 speed
120 length
43 cut
25 pierce
REQ 15 strength

Compare to

Heavy great sword
9001 gold
94 speed
39 cut
25 pierce
120 reach
13 Strength requirement

Compare to

Sword of War
9901 gold
93 Speed
14 str requirement
40 cut
26 pierce
121 reach

I think that these three swords are in the same ball-park gold wise...

SoW - HC - HGS

9901 - 9890 - 9001 gold costs
93 spd - 90 spd - 94 spd
40 cut - 43 cut - 39 cut
26 pierce - 25 pierce - 25 pierce
121 length - 120 length - 120 length
14 REQ - 15 REQ - 13 REQ

Why would anyone choose the claymore when they could have the sword of war or heavy great sword???

The claymore is now severely underpowered (lost 2 spd last patch).  Has the lowest pierce dmg next to katana for swords in it's grouping, has less reach AND less speed than the danish or german swords.  Should also be said that it requires more strength to use than either of these.  (smaller, slower and you need to be stronger to use it...?! wtf!!!) 
Some people seem to think it has some sort of magical "phantom reach", but I have tested this extensively in comparison to the German and Danish great swords, and the claymore gets outreached every time.  The only advantage i can see is it's cut damage, which is three higher than the Danish sword.  Anyone who spends too much time playing CRPG knows that this is so insignificant it is laughable.  (armour eats cut damage)

I don't have any idea what the higher powers of CRPG have in mind for the claymore, if it is going to be slower it should have greater reach, and if it is going to be smaller it should be swung more quickly. 

Historically, the claymore was a 15th/16th/17th century two handed sword which was SMALLER and QUICKER than it's Germanic mainland counterparts of the time period.  Even lowland Scottish swords of the same era were much larger than the highland two handed sword.  (help me out historians and sword lovers)

I consider myself to be a duelist first, and after the recent patch I am hardly effective against other 2h swords users than I was prior. 
Please make my favourite weapon viable on the CRPG battlefield once again, through historical means or just straight game balance, I don't care. 

The Claymore's performance is pathetic when compared to any other 2h sword available in CRPG at the moment.  I think this recent patch is yet another attempt from the englishmen to crush the spirits of the highlanders online. 

Thanks for reading and considering

[Gorath]

I actually suggested this in another thread as well.  Granted I'm biased because I use the War Cleaver pretty much exclusively on my 2her.  Goes with the whole medieval Jason thing (giant machete).  And I was shocked to learn that it had the unbalanced tag (it didn't in native).

I still use it, even though you're right, stats wise it's pointless.  Swords are better for general use and the great axe is pretty much the same thing only with the shield bonus.  If the war cleaver never gets tweaked I'll still use it, but I would love for it to get the bonus vs shields tag.  Looking at the weapon it makes sense (not much difference in blade size/weight between it and an axe really) and it would make it a unique sword without being OP.

Don't know how to do that fancy spoiler button thing, but:

Highland Claymore
9890 Gold
90 speed
120 length
43 cut
25 pierce

I don't have any idea what the higher powers of CRPG have in mind for the claymore, if it is going to be slower it should have greater reach, and if it is going to be smaller it should be swung more quickly.

Actually if you look at the stats it seems to be a counterpart to the War Cleaver actually.  Basically a war cleaver that isn't unbalanced and now has a thrust attack.  Sure it might be kind of weak compared to the lolsword twins, but what isn't?  Those two swords are rediculous and on the verge of broken.  Always have been.  If it didn't spoil the look I have I would probably trade in my cleaver for this just to gain the thrust and lose the unbalanced tag.

[UrLukur]

I would like to see smaller war cleaver in game. Something with about 100 reach.

[Gorath]

I would like to see smaller war cleaver in game. Something with about 100 reach.

Um... why?
Is it OP and broken?  I only really see Wallace and I running around with it.  Ever.

[UrLukur]

Um... why?
Is it OP and broken?  I only really see Wallace and I running around with it.  Ever.

What you have against item variety ?

[Gorath]

What you have against item variety ?

Ohhhh you mean a 2nd one?

Ok then, thought you meant you wanted a nerf to the existing one and I was all "wtf?"

[Belmont]

Added my take on the Claymore, feel free to give comments and/or suggestions on it. (Especially interested in Tired's opinion as a Claymore user)

EDIT:

I would like to see smaller war cleaver in game. Something with about 100 reach.

I think it would be nice if more one handed swords got alternative modes. The Military Cleaver would fit perfectly for this.

[Tired]

Added my take on the Claymore, feel free to give comments and/or suggestions on it. (Especially interested in Tired's opinion as a Claymore user)

I would lose even more water (from all the crying) if they boosted claymore str req and made it even slower for more cut damage.  Cut damage is not a primary factor in two handed swords, i would much rather have a 92 speed sword with 35 cut than a 90 speed sword with 43 cut.  Speed and reach are everything.. oh, and pierce damage is great b/c it's actually good against armour unlike cut... which of course claymore has hardly any of. 

[UrLukur]

I suggest nerfing speed of the other 2h swords to make it viable ? I know you guys don't like this argument, but 2h are still damn fast compared to 1h with shield (i would rather see shield change for more skillful - directional parry, perhaps some sort of chamberblock for shield on blockor no stun for shield user but stun for opponent on good timed attack or ability to block attacks with shield in 0.2 sec after you start chamber attack or[/b something else. Shield really should sport directional attacks, otherwise shield users lack practice with manual block or have to play on duel servers instead of battle which sucks a lot).

[Mala]

The whole short sword line.
Well, for the basic versions i can see some tiers, but the masterpiece ones are nearly identically.

(click to show/hide)

gold 1380   
weight 1
requirement 3
spd rtng 102
weapon length 81
swing damage 26, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce
Gen1= 102spd 28cut 26pierce
Gen2= 103spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen3= 104spd 30cut 28pierce

(click to show/hide)

gold 2596   
weight 1
requirement 4
spd rtng 103
weapon length 81
swing damage 26, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce
Gen1= 103spd 28cut 26pierce
Gen2= 104spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen3= 105spd 30cut 28pierce
   

(click to show/hide)

gold 3744
weight 1
requirement 7
spd rtng 103
weapon length 80
swing damage 27, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Gen1= 103spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen2= 104spd 30cut 27pierce
Gen3= 105spd 30cut 28pierce
   

(click to show/hide)

gold 4874   
weight 1
requirement 6
spd rtng 102
weapon length 86
swing damage 27, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce
Gen1= 102spd 29cut 27pierce
Gen2= 103spd 30cut 27pierce
Gen3= 104spd 30cut 28pierce
   

So in the worst case i have to pay 3.5k gold more for 5 cm more blade lenght.