Author Topic: cRPG became BounceVille.  (Read 9068 times)

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Offline Corrado_Decimo

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2011, 09:37:47 pm »
0
Plenty of people do really good with 27/12 or 30/9. As it is now high str builds are much less gimmick builds then high agi. I think the battle effectiveness of 9/30 should be comparable to 30/9. With 9/30 you glance a lot. With 30/9 you should get spammed a lot. Thats not the way it is, thats why the wpf curve should get less steep.

indeed i agree as i stated in the other AGI related threads. now AGI path is NOT effective. i'm not saying it should stay the way it is. i'm saying AGI need a buff as WM does (or the profiency ramp. but i would rather buff weaponmaster to counter the STR build spam, while the wpf ramp alone will benefit both builds), i would increase the armor weight OR buff the ATH speed bonus to +1%/+1.5%.

we should bring back the old 220wpf at WM10 level 30. and who say "oh no.. the oldschool spam-o-rama crpg!" i say WITHOUT the +0.5% swing speed per AGI point.

Offline Teeth

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #91 on: September 07, 2011, 09:41:10 pm »
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i say WITHOUT the +0.5% swing speed per AGI point.
Luckily thats not even there now.

Offline Corrado_Decimo

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #92 on: September 07, 2011, 10:04:58 pm »
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Luckily thats not even there now.

bringing back the 0.5% swing speed bonus would be too much. +13.5% (9/30 build) swing speed (and also all ranged reload / rate of fire if i'm not wrong)+ MW katana + 220WPF is just too much. that's why balancers removed the swing speed bonus from agi and reworked wpf ramp.

i just say WM need a big buff to bias the overwhelming STR path.

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #93 on: September 07, 2011, 10:18:35 pm »
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...

Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.

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Offline Corrado_Decimo

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2011, 10:21:42 pm »
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...

Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.

i could say the same about "overcoming by simple HP+damage stats is a stupid concept. as long as two fighters hits 2 times eachother, the 9/30 wearing leather will die while the 30/9 wearing med-heavy armor will be at 80% hp"

btw WPF impact on swing speed is VERY VERY minimal. from 0 to 140 effective WPF, you gain ~10% weapon speed (i use the waltF4 tests to compare). so i suppose from 150 to 220 you gain another 5%. seems fine for someone with 3 powerstrike and 45hp. or not?

actually

30/9 str build have 85hp, +80% melee damage, around 120wpf, slow running speed, no armor/weapons difficulty restriction. so double HP, quad damage, -5% swing speed, -30% running speed. (compared to 9/30)

9/30 agi build have 44hp. +15% melee damage, around 180wpf, fast running speed, armor/weapons difficulty restriction.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 10:29:32 pm by Corrado_Decimo »

Offline Teeth

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2011, 10:30:13 pm »
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...

Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.
Well you can glance due to character stats, getting spammed or glancing, it kinda falls in the same category. High agi builds glance, but high str builds do not get spammed. The wpf curve should be more linear, so the increased cost per proficiency point is higher than it is now in the lower numbers, and lower than it is now in the higher numbers.

High agi builds will get 200 wpf, high strength builds will get 80 wpf.

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #96 on: September 07, 2011, 10:38:36 pm »
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I'd say 100-120 wpf, if only to avoird the nasty repair rape that will occur with such low WPF.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #97 on: September 07, 2011, 10:44:04 pm »
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no one glances on armor anymore, so no agi builds do not glance

Offline Kafein

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #98 on: September 07, 2011, 10:45:06 pm »
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What needs to be buffed regarding agi-related skills is movespeed imo, although that ofc brings up the issue with running ranged...

Outspamming by simple wpf stats is a stupid concept imo, getting a double swing due to footwork/hiltslashing/crazy shit=fine, getting a double swing due to character stats = not fine imo.

First, hiltslashing is very questionable IMO.

And when you get double swings, it's always partially because of stats. You can't get double swings with a long maul, even with uber-1337-pro footwork. In fact it depends mostly on stats. With slow weapons such a the flamberge (86 isn't that slow), many people that are fooled by either your feints or holds will hit you first because your weapon, even if you did everything right, is much slower than theirs.

Human movement speed and acceleration is already way too high compared with horse standards in this game. More often than not can archers/infantry just jump on the side and magically dodge a whole horse charging them because they can jump like monkeys and change their direction like if they had no inertia (try that IRL : run 20m in one direction then turn 90° without decelerating or cutting the turn). I think we need to have high swing speeds back instead. Now everyone and their grandmother can read every hold and feint because cRPG is slow as hell. It leads to the prevalence of footwork over anything else and it is a bad evolution of what "skill" is IMO.

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #99 on: September 07, 2011, 10:59:22 pm »
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i could say the same about "overcoming by simple HP+damage stats is a stupid concept. as long as two fighters hits 2 times eachother, the 9/30 wearing leather will die while the 30/9 wearing med-heavy armor will be at 80% hp"

btw WPF impact on swing speed is VERY VERY minimal. from 0 to 140 effective WPF, you gain ~10% weapon speed (i use the waltF4 tests to compare). so i suppose from 150 to 220 you gain another 5%. seems fine for someone with 3 powerstrike and 45hp. or not?

str build have 90hp, +80% melee damage, slow running speed, no armor/weapons difficulty restriction.
agi build have 45hp. +15% melee damage, fast running speed, armor/weapons difficulty restriction.

"Overcoming by hp/damage"

That was not my point.  :|

I'm not talking about swing-for-swing-odds-are-that-that-person-will-win, I'm talking about a scenario where one guy would simply stand no chance because of flawed gamemechanics.

I never argued not to buff agi, I'm just saying that I don't think buffing swingspeed is the way, since mechannically possible spamming by means of simple weapon stats is bull. (Looking at steel pick and spammitar if swingspeed would increase).

Well you can glance due to character stats, getting spammed or glancing, it kinda falls in the same category. High agi builds glance, but high str builds do not get spammed. The wpf curve should be more linear, so the increased cost per proficiency point is higher than it is now in the lower numbers, and lower than it is now in the higher numbers.

High agi builds will get 200 wpf, high strength builds will get 80 wpf.

No it doesn't, there are ways of preventing glancing (turning into swings, speedbonus, headhit etc.), but if your opponent is simply so fast that you cannot strike back...? What you gonna do?

Even at lower levels and using a scythe I rarely glance nowadays.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Also, while I do agree agi needs a buff, nowhere ín the Holy Book of c-rpg Balance does it say that Str and Agi should be equal. The way I see it, Str is the "main" attribute of your character as it deals with the most basic stats (damage given, damage taken) while Agi is the "complementary" attribute, and the one that makes your character special and interesting to play with/against (governs specialized skills such as riding and shielding, also deals with the more subtle attributes of your character such as speed bonus damage, battlefield prescence, footwork, dodging arrows etc.)

Going for a high Str build will yield a character that is very powerful - but also very boring, slow and predictable. Going for a high Agi build will yield a character that is interesting, varied and tricky - but lacking raw power.

This is why I've always favoured balanced builds - enough power to be able to hurt, and enough agi to be able to do fun/tricky stuff (duel!).

...and imo, this is fine, BUT I feel that Agi currently give to little of a bonus to be, well, "viable". Once you hit the Agi levels where you can start doing real crazy shit, your character is already far too weak to be able to acomplish much useful.

Sorry for rant  :P

« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 11:02:21 pm by Dezilagel »
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Offline Corrado_Decimo

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2011, 11:46:02 pm »
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Also, while I do agree agi needs a buff, nowhere ín the Holy Book of c-rpg Balance does it say that Str and Agi should be equal. The way I see it, Str is the "main" attribute of your character as it deals with the most basic stats (damage given, damage taken) while Agi is the "complementary" attribute, and the one that makes your character special and interesting to play with/against (governs specialized skills such as riding and shielding, also deals with the more subtle attributes of your character such as speed bonus damage, battlefield prescence, footwork, dodging arrows etc.)

Going for a high Str build will yield a character that is very powerful - but also very boring, slow and predictable. Going for a high Agi build will yield a character that is interesting, varied and tricky - but lacking raw power.

This is why I've always favoured balanced builds - enough power to be able to hurt, and enough agi to be able to do fun/tricky stuff (duel!).

...and imo, this is fine, BUT I feel that Agi currently give to little of a bonus to be, well, "viable". Once you hit the Agi levels where you can start doing real crazy shit, your character is already far too weak to be able to acomplish much useful.

Sorry for rant  :P

well i partially agree. i disagree about the AGI as a "complementary" stat. is not. should be "almost" equal to STR in value. now is not. rebalancing stats would give more room out the already done thousand times 27/12, 24/15, 21/18, 18/21 builds. Now economic value-wise, the most effective battle-siege builds are (at least for 2h/pole) 27/12, 24/15, 21/18. because you can run in a slightly cheaper armor (lighter, biased by more STR+IF hp) and weapons (mid-tier weapons are faster, and cheaper. as a longsword with 9PS is by far faster and deadlier than a DGS with 5PS. only drawback is 15cm shorter.)

i remember my old 27/12 with +3 studded leather over mail and +3 longsword. was really nasty.

Offline Gorath

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2011, 05:16:15 am »
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no one glances on armor anymore, so no agi builds do not glance

Yes they do, depending on the weapon.  I'm a balanced build (18/18) and I still glance off of platers with shit.  Granted I use "crappy" weapons instead of the cookie cutter German/Danish/Bec holy trinity of melee but still.

Human movement speed and acceleration is already way too high compared with horse standards in this game. More often than not can archers/infantry just jump on the side and magically dodge a whole horse charging them because they can jump like monkeys and change their direction like if they had no inertia (try that IRL : run 20m in one direction then turn 90° without decelerating or cutting the turn). I think we need to have high swing speeds back instead. Now everyone and their grandmother can read every hold and feint because cRPG is slow as hell. It leads to the prevalence of footwork over anything else and it is a bad evolution of what "skill" is IMO.

I disagree quite a bit here.  In this game humans move like snail-paced robots incapable of complex movement, while horses for some reason act like jet powered unicycles (as in having an insanely good turning radius.)

It is much easier to dodge something coming at you at speed, even if you're running, IRL than in this game because of the flexibility and movement capability the human body has allowing you to dodge, lunge, dive, leap, roll, etc etc.  Hell, I'm a fat trucker and even I seem like bruce fucking lee combined with an olympic gymnast compared to the movement and speed characters have in this game.

And still no proper sprint key, wtf.

Obviously that's TW issue, not the mod-devs.
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Offline Xant

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2011, 08:06:40 am »
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no one glances on armor anymore, so no agi builds do not glance

Wrong. With 5 PS I glance on a regular basis on high-end armor that's heirloomed. So much that there's no point dueling people with them - when I attack them they just spam me, I hit first but it glances and I get hit instead. This is with a Masterwork Danish Great Sword, too.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2011, 01:05:06 pm »
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Wrong. With 5 PS I glance on a regular basis on high-end armor that's heirloomed. So much that there's no point dueling people with them - when I attack them they just spam me, I hit first but it glances and I get hit instead. This is with a Masterwork Danish Great Sword, too.

you mean heirloomed plate armor? you know i rarely noticed glancing with 6 PS, i'll try out a gimmicky agi build one day. I have 69 body armor and rarely do i notice weapon glances that aren't weilded by lvl 10 one handers.

Offline Paul

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Re: cRPG became BounceVille.
« Reply #104 on: September 08, 2011, 01:58:42 pm »
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With 5 PS you only bounce because of sweetspots or a bad speed bonus. At least with a weapon with base damage > 30. A decent, centered hit shouldn't bounce. So Xant's problem is that he sucks.