Author Topic: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.  (Read 3662 times)

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Offline Thomek

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Premise:
When I think about it, nearly no one uses the shorter 2h handers, even the longsword, in battle.

The standard weapon for 2handers is the Danish.
Among polearms there are greater variety, but many of them are long weapons too. The shorter polearms are underused.
I strongly feel these trends leads to a predictable and boring battlefield, since the range advantage is OP. (it becomes a longest range game)

Solution:
Buff the damage of the shorter weapons together with a speed nerf of the longer weapons. Adjust prices accordingly. (Since no one wants to save $$$ on main wep anyway it seems.)

(Adding speed to the faster weapons more than we currently have leads to game breaking because of ping issues and netcode limitations afaik)

Result:
A more varied battlefied, where people wield a bigger range of weapons. No clear "Best" weapon, just a plethora of preferences.

Discussion
I expect a lot of resistance to these ideas, as the large majority of 2-handers are sitting on loomed danish swords and the like.
IMO weapon Range needs to cost more in performance. It is currently undervalued by the balancers.

Mind you that weapons performance may be well balanced in a DUEL situation, but this is not the way to truly balance a weapon, as this is a BATTLE game, and weapons needs to be balanced for Battle.

One problem with all this is the pricing situation. Naturally the best weapons should cost the most, but what i want suggest is a kind of TIER system where devs choose a handful of weapons of every Length-Category and make them top tier and costly.

for 2-handers it would look something like this: (Loose suggestion to illustrate the point)

Long 2h swords
TOP TIER: Danish, German and Sword of War cost the same - but are balanced to be of equal value on the battlefield. Preference should be the only difference.
2nd TIER Heavy Greatsword, Greatsword and Claymore - should be ALMOST as good as top tier, but MUCH cheaper. They are the budget alternative.
(I bet most people will choose top tier anyway. The price has to be low enough that people will consider using a 2nd tier sword.

Medium Length 2h weapons
TOP TIER: Long Sword - 2h Sword - Heavy Bastard(?!) Should cost THE SAME as Top tier Long 2h swords. But be equally valuable in a battle situation.
2nd TIER: Bastard Sword - Miadoao - Long Iron Mace. Budget versions of the above.

Short 2h swords
etc..

In between there are specialized  weapons of all types of course..

Anyway, the point should be clear.

People will always use the "Best"/ most expensive weapon. Make them equal in price, and equal in effectiveness. Tax range harder when you balance things. Make "budget" weapons cheaper.

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Offline Digglez

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2011, 08:44:34 pm »
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maybe its an euro thing, but theres LOTS of NA that use longswords.  They're so fricken fast they're hard to block.  THey're also a good amount of people using morningstars, that are just devastating if you get hit by it
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 08:46:14 pm by Digglez »

Offline Camaris

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2011, 08:45:31 pm »
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Tought the same when playing last time with a heavy bastard.
Cool its cheaper but it loses a lot of range and a lot of damage for more speed.
Dont think its a good trade so i play most of the time with danish.

I disagree with the suggestion to make long 2h even slower.

Offline Thomek

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2011, 08:46:54 pm »
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well, it goes only for the longest 2handers, and polearm should be slower too.. So the internal long 2h and polearm balance should be the same.

It would give you a dilemma when it comes to shielders. Would be harder to kill them with the ultra-long weapons, but easier with a shorter one.
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Offline Rubicon

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2011, 09:36:21 pm »
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Basically you want counter the katana nerf by a global nerf on all 2h..
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Offline Xant

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2011, 09:42:05 pm »
+2
The reason the shorter weapons aren't as used is just logical and can't be undone unless you give them some ridiculous buffs. In duel they are just as good, but on the battlefield you want reach so you can hit people while staying away from the enemy zerg horde and/or with your team's zerg.

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Offline Cup1d

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2011, 09:43:29 pm »
+1
In other words you wanna buff:

2H department. Weapon shorter than 90 lenght

Maul
Great Maul
Mallet
Mace
Morningstar

Pole department. Weapons shorter or 120 lenght

Voulge
Shortened spear
Long Axe
Bec


Well, I think Voulge is useless weapon, but others do not look so bad.

Offline Camaris

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2011, 10:50:36 pm »
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In one thing he is correct.
Long swords have
+ damage
+ range
- speed
- expensive

Shorter  have
+ speed
+ cheaper
-damage
- range

I dont know why all shorter swords have to be cheap and less damaging and almost every longer sword expensive but hard hitting.
You could also make some shorter swords more powerful and some longer cheaper.

For example Greatsword and heavy Greatsword could be cheaper with a little bit less damage and some of the shorts for example longsword or heavy bastard could get a bit more expensive but get more damage. So you would have more options on different price segments.

I still disagree with further nerfing of any top tier 2h cause they have lost a lot in the last patches.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 10:54:17 pm by Camaris »

Offline Thomek

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2011, 11:33:54 pm »
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Camaris got it right.

I'm not talking about nerfs here..

I'm just saying that there should be a greater variety in weapons actually being used. Therefore, shorter weps should be buffed so they would be used more. (To put it simple)

and rubicon, you are wrong. I'm not talking about the power of the 2h/pole weps in regards to other classes. Just an internal balancing so we would see a greater variation of them used.


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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 12:39:35 am »
+1
I'm all about diversity in this game. However, I think instead of buffing some I think they should look for new weapons to add to the game.

1 handers have the most diversity out of any other weapon class. Probably because there are 72 1-handers.

Polearms have 47 and 2 handers are WAY behind with only 38.

It's kind of sad when there are almost TWICE as many 1 handers as 2 handers in this game...
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Offline Rubicon

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 12:40:44 am »
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My point is that it's a pretty huge work in terms of balance, the reach is one parameter, not the main variable as damage is.
Any radical change in 2h have an impact on Pole/1h, whatever, the whole melee weapons must be reworked.. for the sake of diversity?
I'm pretty much with you for that part, but, what can be done? Danish/German will ever be the most used 2h, Kuyak as armour etc .. Seems like ppl don't care about diversity
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Offline Laufknoten

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 12:50:01 am »
+2
It's kind of sad when there are almost TWICE as many 1 handers as 2 handers in this game...
It's kind of sad, that there are more than TWICE as many 2 handers than 1 handers on the BATTLEFIELD...
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Offline Siiem

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 04:28:03 am »
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I'm not talking about nerfs here..

I'm just saying that the katana should be buffed so I can suck less.


No? It wont help.

Offline Paul

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 05:59:17 am »
+5
Premise:
Katana needs buff.

Solution:
Buff Katana!

Discussion:
Buffed Katana is buffed.

Dev response:
Katana nerf.

Offline Bjord

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Re: More power to short 2h and polearms for better weapons variety.
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2011, 06:45:35 am »
-1
I see conflict of interest.  :|
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