Author Topic: Buff 1h swords speed  (Read 9731 times)

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Offline Michael

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2011, 09:57:45 pm »
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Actually its way easier to swing a bigger weapon in real life with two hands than a smaller weapon with one hand especially when you carry a heavy shield as well.

But realism is not an argument in crpg.

Balance is.

Shielders should stop whining.

You can hide behind your shield, what gives you a huge advantage seeing how many rangers are around.

Even in 1 vs 1 the average 1hshielder will win against an average 2hswordsman (crush through and 1hitshieldbreaking poleaxes are a different story).

The reason why 2hs often own 1hshielders is simple. They are better players. Everyone starts with shield. After some months the for fun player get bored and mostly seek a greater challenge, manuell block.

Power players, that want to be as effective as possible, want their team help to win, or simply gain the fun out of winning and owning will stick with 1hshield simply because its easier.

Just watch good 1hshielders (Dima, Paul, Olwen, Phazey, Varjag, Bjord with his alt Fencer). More than once I have seen them alone roll a group of 3 or more Ninjas.

As a shielder, you need to be aggressive, stress the 2h, then he makes mistakes.

Most 1hshielders play way to passive, so that a random dude can swing, back-pedal, swing, back-pedal.

Just hiding behind your shield is not an option.

Use it to block the first swing, then push forward and spam like crazy. Doesnt even need much "skill", its mostly about experience. 
 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 09:59:20 pm by Michael »
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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2011, 10:05:50 pm »
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Actually its way easier to swing a bigger weapon in real life with two hands than a smaller weapon with one hand especially when you carry a heavy shield as well.

But realism is not an argument in crpg.

Balance is.

Shielders should stop whining.

You can hide behind your shield, what gives you a huge advantage seeing how many rangers are around.

Even in 1 vs 1 the average 1hshielder will win against an average 2hswordsman (crush through and 1hitshieldbreaking poleaxes are a different story).

The reason why 2hs often own 1hshielders is simple. They are better players. Everyone starts with shield. After some months the for fun player get bored and mostly seek a greater challenge, manuell block.

Power players, that want to be as effective as possible, want their team help to win, or simply gain the fun out of winning and owning will stick with 1hshield simply because its easier.

Just watch good 1hshielders (Dima, Paul, Olwen, Phazey, Varjag, Bjord with his alt Fencer). More than once I have seen them alone roll a group of 3 or more Ninjas.

As a shielder, you need to be aggressive, stress the 2h, then he makes mistakes.

Most 1hshielders play way to passive, so that a random dude can swing, back-pedal, swing, back-pedal.

Just hiding behind your shield is not an option.

Use it to block the first swing, then push forward and spam like crazy. Doesnt even need much "skill", its mostly about experience. 
 

Ranged should require more skill, right now it's too easy. With skill based ranged, amount of them and threat will decrease which will buff 2h indirectly.

Shield mechanic should be changed, instead of blocking all directions it need to block either 1 like every other weapon or 3 to show it's blocking potential Not counting blocking with mesh, like manual block, then 1 direction would be more fitting), so it promote skill.

2h nearly always have range advantage, with 2h animation nerf the gap would be smaller, so aggressive play would be more rewarded, now it's not very rewarding and hard to do against decent ones.
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Offline DrKronic

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2011, 10:11:56 pm »
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Gigantic +1 for mike

 thing is after two rounds of damage and speed nerfs not to mention weight gains on alot of 2h(backdoor speed nerf)combine that with a speed and damage buff on one handers leaves me with a impression there's alot of people blaming weapons when they need to examine their build or skills

Now let's get back to Urlurkur posting the other half of the posts in this thread

PS anyones whose ever swung a sword knows u swing faster with both hands

Hell if u use inertia u can recover pretty fast used to fight with practice katanas
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2011, 12:13:38 am »
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Katana   8212   
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce Almost useless.

Side Sword   8922   
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

Side sword is OP, needs a nerf. Katana is NO SHIELD (nerfed completely if used with a shield), the main advantage is speed, and a freakin 1 hander almost just as fast with the same length. Using 2 hands only give 1 more speed, and 3 more damage,  actually loosing 8 thrust damage.
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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2011, 12:18:24 am »
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Katana   8212   
weight 1.25
requirement 9
spd rtng 102
weapon length 95
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce Almost useless.

Side Sword   8922   
weight 1.3
requirement 8
spd rtng 101
weapon length 95
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

Side sword is OP, needs a nerf. Katana is NO SHIELD (nerfed completely if used with a shield), the main advantage is speed, and a freakin 1 hander almost just as fast with the same length. Using 2 hands only give 1 more speed, and 3 more damage,  actually loosing 8 thrust damage.

2h have higher speed bonus and way more reach. It's not just as fast, it's much slower due to shield (if used), stun, turning into swing, sweet spots. 3 more damage is huge bonus. Any actual arguments ?

Oh, and katana have more reach thanks to animations, you forgot to mention it.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2011, 12:53:12 am »
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In swing as well? (useless) Thrust of course, but idk if its a lot of range bonus in the swing.
1 hander can also turn into swings.
Stun?? The kata is lighter than the Side Sword.
Sweet spots, look above.
Yes 3 more damage in the swings, but side sword has 8 more in the thrust.
Slower with shield? Take away the shield..
Shielders can also wear less armor and gain more wpf for much better protection than the average black armor tin-can.

Fact is,  many 1 handers are damn fast, and they are harder to block than most 2 handers or polearms. They also start their swings hidden behind shields, and because of shields, super-easy to block with. ANYWAY:

The advantages of playing with shields and 1h weapons, are so great, there should be a serious speed, damage, and range penalty..

Your way to the top of the kill-list is different than with a 2h/polearm though. When a polearmer can throw on some proper armor, a great heirloomed long something, and manual block, chamber-swing and generally rape their way to the top score, shielders must have patience, choose their battles, play smart, and be aware. Your advantage is not firepower, but protection and time.

Look to Gnjus. He is 1-shot capping experienced 2h/polarm blockers by a surprise left swing to their head all the time.

I kill a lot of shielders, and the only reason i do so is their noobishness. I use my speed to walk left-right left-right, and they don't follow with their shield. So i get a hit to their back . How hard is it to simply move your mouse left and right? In a long duel, I will surely loose, because chances are that in an exchange, I will miss a block 1-2 times before their shield breaks.

There is hardly any reason to take the Katana over a 1h weapon anymore. If you buff them further I don't see the point of using a fast-short 2 hander anymore. (Situation is of course different with the longer 2h/polearms. I can see why you want to be faster than them, and they should imo generally be slower, and if you rephrase your opinion to that, i'll agree :-)
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Offline Gorath

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2011, 12:55:27 am »
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It's not that 1h swords need a speed buff, it's that shields do. The game is treating shield users like retards who can't use two arms independently at the same time. This shouldn't be a penalty; it's why 1h/shielders get spammed to death rather than actually gaining this supposed survivability against multiple opponents that everyone keeps bullshitting about.

Yup, shields are the issue.
Someone else posted something similar to this as well, and I've brought it up numerous times on the TW forums.  The problem isn't with 1hers ON THEIR OWN.  They're fast enough, and as they logically should be, complete crap when compared to 1h/2hers as they're shorter and deal less damage (animations are meh, but whatever that's neither here nor there atm).  The problem comes from shields and how slow they are, even when buffed to 7 shield skill in order to try and boost speed.

Now it's not something so terrible that 1her's can't perform well with alot of skill and practice, however a speed increase across the board (no pun intended) for shields would alleviate the perceived speed issues that 1hers face.

My 2her uses the War Cleaver.  Big, slow, no thrust, unbalanced.  140 wpf and 20 agility atm and shielders, except for EXCEPTIONAL ones (ManofWar, Balb, Dan) are pretty much easy prey and free kills as between feinting and straight out spam they pose little to no threat atm due to how slow on reaction the shield makes them.

Still, the topic has been beaten to death and for the most part most people play 2her or polearm and feel that either:
1h/shields are fine
1h/shields are OP
1h/shields are ez-mode trash and fuck them.
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Offline Punisher

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2011, 12:56:15 am »
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Long 2h/polearms are already 10 speed slower than 1H, how slow do they want them to be? What's the point of playing 2H/polearms anymore if you nerf them further?

Offline Rextard

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2011, 01:11:10 am »
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Katanas are fast in two hands because of the leverage that their particular hilts provide. Not because of 2handed use, because of 2handed use on that type of hilt, which predisposes them to fast and forceful chops and swings. The power and speed in a thrust has much more to do with the force that legs contribute by shifting weight forward suddenly, not by the power generated in the arms.

And a shield held in tight should be able to be swung or stabbed over and around, it shouldn't have to be lowered to strike. That you have to lower it and cannot attack around it is the origin of complaints about spamming. Once you cock your attack your shield being lowered exposes you to an attack in the game. Raising it again cancels your attack if it isn't already gone through. You shouldn't have to choose all the time between block or attack when the purpose of a shield is to be able to block and attack at very least near simultaneously. Real shields don't care about [anything] whether they are raised or pushed out or positioned any way, so long as they are in the opponents strike path they impede the strike. The in game shields do care about this, because they were programmed to.

Anyway, http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm this three page article pwns everything and everyone including myself. As does the site it rode in on.

Offline Mattressi

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2011, 01:22:31 am »
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Still, the topic has been beaten to death and for the most part most people play 2her or polearm and feel that either:
1h/shields are fine
1h/shields are OP
1h/shields are ez-mode trash and fuck them.

That's because they are all 3. Some shielders have low agi (likely are low level too) and/or crap shields that break quickly. You can either fight them normally or just break their shield. Other shielders have similar agi and require a decent amount of skill to attack (or you can just break their shield slowly). Then there's the agispammed shielder with a huscarl (or two) and a spammitar that sprints across the battlefield to you, hugs your face and spams the crap out of you. Someone who would normally be a skilled 2H becomes an unstoppable shielder because they have an (almost) unbreakable shield and therefore do not need to worry about projectiles or block direction, while still having faster attack speed and athletics. They lack a little in damage and complain that they have lower range (despite out ranging many 2H weapons like the katana and being able to run significantly faster forward than a 2H can backward anyway).

Maybe 1h needs a speed buff and nerf; perhaps the issue is just that some suck horribly because they have lower agi, while others are near-invincible because they have lots of agi, so the answer could be to make the difference in speed relative to agi less enormous? I'm not saying remove the effects of agi, just that if you nerf the speed of 1h to appease 2hers, lower (more like, less than 20-something) agi 1hers will complain. If you buff the speed, 2h will complain about the high agi even more. I reckon, we either need to ignore the complaints of the 1hers who don't pump agi (lest they get there wishes and high agi becomes even more OP) or the difference in speed between high and low agi should be brought down a bit.

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2011, 01:36:47 am »
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In swing as well? (useless) Thrust of course, but idk if its a lot of range bonus in the swing.

check left swing and compare those two, feel freely to test on duel server. 95 range weapons are dirt cheap.
On right they are comparable, 1h is only slightly disadvantaged.
On overhead, 2h have advantage.
On stab 2h have enormous advantage.



1 hander can also turn into swings.

To deal no damage. 1h have more harsh sweet spots, and those 4 damage counts A LOT here.

Stun?? The kata is lighter than the Side Sword.
Sweet spots, look above.

Point for you, didn't checked this time, was heavier.

Sweet spots are done on damage, not weight.

Yes 3 more damage in the swings, but side sword has 8 more in the thrust.

It's strange but  2h have better speed bonus thanks to animations, go into native to check it out.

Slower with shield? Take away the shield..
Shielders can also wear less armor and gain more wpf for much better protection than the average black armor tin-can.

Whats the point of 1h without shield ? In such situation it will be even more disadvantaged.

Less armor ? To die in one hit from 2h ? 1h need to strike several times to kill someone, 2h need way less, armor saves against the arrows and ranged spam in general, remember we move slower so we are easier target. 1h is not good for zig-zag gameplay as shield does not protect well during it, bad animation :/

Fact is,  many 1 handers are damn fast, and they are harder to block than most 2 handers or polearms. They also start their swings hidden behind shields, and because of shields, super-easy to block with. ANYWAY:

It's slower to strike with shield up if i remember right, at least it seems so.

Blocking with shield does help, but it's not outright superior. It isn't instant, and blocking feints instead of just waiting for thud is very hard. Beside, 1h against 2h have way chances to made mistakes, 1 or 2 and you're dead. 2h can take more beating. It helps against multiple opponents.

The advantages of playing with shields and 1h weapons, are so great, there should be a serious speed, damage, and range penalty..

Don't think so. Still, i feel that shield blocking need to be changed.

Your way to the top of the kill-list is different than with a 2h/polearm though. When a polearmer can throw on some proper armor, a great heirloomed long something, and manual block, chamber-swing and generally rape their way to the top score, shielders must have patience, choose their battles, play smart, and be aware. Your advantage is not firepower, but protection and time.

Look to Gnjus. He is 1-shot capping experienced 2h/polarm blockers by a surprise left swing to their head all the time.

Isn't that somewhat boring ? More aggressive gameplay for 1h would be way better, and would feel more real.

I kill a lot of shielders, and the only reason i do so is their noobishness. I use my speed to walk left-right left-right, and they don't follow with their shield. So i get a hit to their back . How hard is it to simply move your mouse left and right? In a long duel, I will surely loose, because chances are that in an exchange, I will miss a block 1-2 times before their shield breaks.

There is hardly any reason to take the Katana over a 1h weapon anymore. If you buff them further I don't see the point of using a fast-short 2 hander anymore. (Situation is of course different with the longer 2h/polearms. I can see why you want to be faster than them, and they should imo generally be slower, and if you rephrase your opinion to that, i'll agree :-)

Why would i buff 1h further ? I'd rather nerf their top speed level than boost. Point of this thread is boosting less used (cheaper) 1h swords with 4 attack directions. How long time ago you seen something like simple sword or sword used ? Likely never, as they are too gimped to be valid choices.
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Offline Gorath

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2011, 01:54:46 am »
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I reckon, we either need to ignore the complaints of the 1hers who don't pump agi (lest they get there wishes and high agi becomes even more OP) or the difference in speed between high and low agi should be brought down a bit.

You're completely bypassing the fact that 2hers actually gain more benefit from agi stacking than 2hers do as for one:  No need to waste points on a shield skill, allowing them to increase it further.  And two:  2h animations are far superior, which exacerbates the speed issue of high agi/wpf even more.

It wasn't agi-stacking 1hers that were breaking the game pre-patch, but agi stacking 2hers.   :wink:
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Offline zagibu

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2011, 03:44:17 am »
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I used to play 1h+shield and had to work hard to get to top5 even at level 30. Now I'm an agi spammer 2h again and it's much easier. Most deaths are by thrown shit, actually, because it seems that currently, everyone and their mothers are throwers. Maybe I'll try it, too.
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Offline RandomDude

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2011, 06:09:32 am »
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From balance point, those very long swords should be indeed slower. Those are support weapons, not 1 vs 1 weapon.

Beside, they have stun.

i think 2h only stun if you hold the attack - polearms do it a lot more and no1 can stun you by hitting your shield can they?

2h have never been support they are the damage dealers

i wouldnt exactly say 1h are support either but if a 1h and 2h are fighting an enemy and they're working as a team it usually makes sense for the 1h to be more defensive and the 2h to kill (unless the opponent is really going after the 2h)

i have got a decent 1h but i havent played it today so i dunno if i will feel the difference or not but i didnt find any problems fighting 2h's

i get spammed by agi katana's on any char i use so if your beef is with them then just focus on katana's


As a shielder, you need to be aggressive, stress the 2h, then he makes mistakes.

Most 1hshielders play way to passive, so that a random dude can swing, back-pedal, swing, back-pedal.


rofl... that is only 1 of the chapters of The Way

As for the rest - unless someone is  making alts then the 1hs are seeing better and better players

more and more of them can feint fast and really get in my face and make it hard for me to beat them without some other factor like bounce/luck/team mate etc

i play my 1h like i see them play and it works quite well

1h can spam just as good as a 2h - and i 1 hit people with a slash to the face wit 6ps and a standard knightly arming sword
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 06:28:12 am by RandomDude »

Offline Mouse

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Re: Buff 1h swords speed
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2011, 07:42:29 am »
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The best part about playing a shielder is when the shield breaks and you manual block their next two attacks. There's often this long pause between and a fast backpedal before they resume attacking you. I imagine that's the "oh shit" moment where they realize you're going to kill them with now. :)

Also, 1H swords don't need a speed buff. Like Garguro said, the shield block release animation is the true speed bottleneck. I would be in favor of buffing shield speeds more than 1H weapon speed.