Bec de Corbin issue

[Magikarp]

(click to show/hide)

I think the main issue is that NA evolved a different way, as NA has a noticable range spam compared to EU so AGI builds are often shot to pieces, so people started moving away from them and towards higher HP builds with armour.

I don't think the AGI EU or the STR NA are inherently more evolved then one another, as high STR builds get trashed in EU still and high AGI builds still get trashed in NA. It is just two semi-isolated communities who have evolved in different ways, no one build is better then the other, and Walt has proven with one of his "papers" that even a 0ATHL character will walk forward faster (as long as he only blocks and times his strikes) then a high ATHL character can backpedal, so it is not like it is a hopeless cause.

EU went the way of Oranges, and NA went towards Apples, both good but both different, it is just that EU is accustomed to their own playstyle and so is NA and thus is more used to squeezing out extra performance in their own different niches.

Good players will still do good no matter if the go high STR or high AGI if they are used to that particular build.


Stop this "evolution" bullshit that keeps popping up every month. This is not evolving, this is adapting a preference.

The only clear differences that have not to do with personal preference on the servers from my expereince is that NA is more used to Range spam and has fewer people who keep standing dumbly when shot and can dodge properly, and that EU (even the EU folks who visit us say this) has less greedy cav who team bump their own team mates to death.

TL:DR NA top players still dominate high AGI builds and top EU players still dominate high STR builds... Think about it...

I'd rather call this development a downfall instead of an evolution.

EU is not agility orientated at all, we are just orientated to balance, which means not taking excessive amounts of strength or agility.

Without enough agility, you can't have enough wpf to go into heavy armour without your blows being insanely slow. I don't get at all why people in NA go for these builds, it only gimps your character. People say going strength builds makes you better versus archer spam, well, it won't, archers can just run away, by going low agility you are making it much easier for them.

The Bec de Corbin fairytale in NA has to stop, this weapon is fine.

[Gumdrawp]

I'd rather call this development a downfall instead of an evolution.

EU is not agility orientated at all, we are just orientated to balance, which means not taking excessive amounts of strength or agility.

Without enough agility, you can't have enough wpf to go into heavy armour without your blows being insanely slow. I don't get at all why people in NA go for these builds, it only gimps your character. People say going strength builds makes you better versus archer spam, well, it won't, archers can just run away, by going low agility you are making it much easier for them.

The Bec de Corbin fairytale in NA has to stop, this weapon is fine.

I honestly dont even think its that most of NA is strength oriented builds, its that everyone calls everyone out for "cructching" on str builds when were agi/balanced anyways. Almost everyone thought that Tydeus was STR when i started playing and he wasnt at the time. I still get "Typical dfc player, str build in tincan" half the times i do well on servers and im an agility build.

Also you dont need high wpf to have enough swingspeed to play well, each wpf you have takes approx .001 seconds off your swing. Its noticeable going from 1wpf to 140 wpf but the difference between the 150ish wpf that a agi build gets and the 125-130 wpf that a str build will get is really minimal. At best youre looking at around a .02 second swing time advantage over a str build. Considering most human reflexes are between .120 seconds and .180 seconds .02 is a really minimal increase in the grander scheme of things. What actually makes the swings on agility builds seem so much faster is the fact that when you sidestep you accelerate much faster at 6-8 athletics than you would at 3-4 in the same gear.

Im not going to argue that either build is superior because the best duelists i've seen in NA aren't all at the same end of the spectrum. One is 27/12, one is 18/21, one is 18/18.

Its a playstyle preference more than anything else, crpg essentially doesn't have "min-maxing" like a lot of games do. Personal skill matters far more than your build ever will.

[Visus]

I'd rather call this development a downfall instead of an evolution.

EU is not agility orientated at all, we are just orientated to balance, which means not taking excessive amounts of strength or agility.

Without enough agility, you can't have enough wpf to go into heavy armour without your blows being insanely slow. I don't get at all why people in NA go for these builds, it only gimps your character. People say going strength builds makes you better versus archer spam, well, it won't, archers can just run away, by going low agility you are making it much easier for them.

The Bec de Corbin fairytale in NA has to stop, this weapon is fine.

Oh no. The master EU agi elitist has his panties in a twist. Quick. Ignore any possible problems with an NA discussion because clearly, we are too devolved for your superior old world wit.

I don't care if you stack agi, or str. The simple fact is that in decent players hands the Bec becomes a deadly force. You might say this is true with all weapons for a good player...but good > decent.

The polestun on the Bec simply makes a powerful weapon something to be feared.

I have no delusions on knowing the right way to balance the Bec, but you cannot honestly tell me that it has no problems. Let's keep it civil shall we? This is a disussion. Not a place for players to  declare the finality of their perspective and community.

[rustyspoon]

I honestly dont even think its that most of NA is strength oriented builds, its that everyone calls everyone out for "cructching" on str builds when were agi/balanced anyways. Almost everyone thought that Tydeus was STR when i started playing and he wasnt at the time. I still get "Typical dfc player, str build in tincan" half the times i do well on servers and im an agility build.

Also you dont need high wpf to have enough swingspeed to play well, each wpf you have takes approx .001 seconds off your swing. Its noticeable going from 1wpf to 140 wpf but the difference between the 150ish wpf that a agi build gets and the 125-130 wpf that a str build will get is really minimal. At best youre looking at around a .02 second swing time advantage over a str build. Considering most human reflexes are between .120 seconds and .180 seconds .02 is a really minimal increase in the grander scheme of things. What actually makes the swings on agility builds seem so much faster is the fact that when you sidestep you accelerate much faster at 6-8 athletics than you would at 3-4 in the same gear.

Im not going to argue that either build is superior because the best duelists i've seen in NA aren't all at the same end of the spectrum. One is 27/12, one is 18/21, one is 18/18.

Its a playstyle preference more than anything else, crpg essentially doesn't have "min-maxing" like a lot of games do. Personal skill matters far more than your build ever will.

Quoted for truth. + 1

[Magikarp]

(click to show/hide)

Oh no. The master EU agi elitist has his panties in a twist. Quick. Ignore any possible problems with an NA discussion because clearly, we are too devolved for your superior old world wit.

I don't care if you stack agi, or str. The simple fact is that in decent players hands the Bec becomes a deadly force. You might say this is true with all weapons for a good player...but good > decent.

The polestun on the Bec simply makes a powerful weapon something to be feared.

I have no delusions on knowing the right way to balance the Bec, but you cannot honestly tell me that it has no problems. Let's keep it civil shall we? This is a disussion. Not a place for players to  declare the finality of their perspective and community.

Every weapon can become deadly in the hands of a pro, some of them are better than others, the bec de corbin isn't one of them.

We don't stack agi or strength, we mostly go for balanced builds, which means some go 21/18, some go 18/21 and maybe some will go for the 24/15 or 15/24 variants.

The Bec is fine. Want to know when it was OP? When it had blunt damage. Now please, stop whining about a weapon shorter than a onehander.

Gumdrawp seems to be the only one getting it here, I agree that there is little difference between 148 and 156 wpf, but some prefer it. However strength builds only get 120-130 wpf, if they go for a little agility. Which means going heavy armour is a no go, unless you want your hits to be so slow, that everyone can block them easily.

[Dexxtaa]

I honestly dont even think its that most of NA is strength oriented builds, its that everyone calls everyone out for "cructching" on str builds when were agi/balanced anyways. Almost everyone thought that Tydeus was STR when i started playing and he wasnt at the time. I still get "Typical dfc player, str build in tincan" half the times i do well on servers and im an agility build.

Also you dont need high wpf to have enough swingspeed to play well, each wpf you have takes approx .001 seconds off your swing. Its noticeable going from 1wpf to 140 wpf but the difference between the 150ish wpf that a agi build gets and the 125-130 wpf that a str build will get is really minimal. At best youre looking at around a .02 second swing time advantage over a str build. Considering most human reflexes are between .120 seconds and .180 seconds .02 is a really minimal increase in the grander scheme of things. What actually makes the swings on agility builds seem so much faster is the fact that when you sidestep you accelerate much faster at 6-8 athletics than you would at 3-4 in the same gear.

Im not going to argue that either build is superior because the best duelists i've seen in NA aren't all at the same end of the spectrum. One is 27/12, one is 18/21, one is 18/18.

Its a playstyle preference more than anything else, crpg essentially doesn't have "min-maxing" like a lot of games do. Personal skill matters far more than your build ever will.

Excellent analysis, doctor.

A lot more eloquent than my brusque response.

+1

[Gumdrawp]

Every weapon can become deadly in the hands of a pro, some of them are better than others, the bec de corbin isn't one of them.

We don't stack agi or strength, we mostly go for balanced builds, which means some go 21/18, some go 18/21 and maybe some will go for the 24/15 or 15/24 variants.

The Bec is fine. Want to know when it was OP? When it had blunt damage. Now please, stop whining about a weapon shorter than a onehander.

Gumdrawp seems to be the only one getting it here, I agree that there is little difference between 148 and 156 wpf, but some prefer it. However strength builds only get 120-130 wpf, if they go for a little agility. Which means going heavy armour is a no go, unless you want your hits to be so slow, that everyone can block them easily.

Do eu players not feint or hold? every swing is easily blocked unless its either of the two. My point was that the difference of less than 10 wpf is nearly imperceptible to the human eye but the difference of ~20-25 wpf is noticeable but not gamebreaking considering reaction times.

Other than the fact that my point went completely over your head, the heavy armor assumption that you make goes both ways. Both builds recieve the same penalty for wearing the same armor, and its a useless argument because of that fact. Ive worn black armor+litchina+plate mittens+cased greaves as both 30/9 and 18/21 and my swing speed difference is noticeable but if you actually know how to play (i.e. feints and holds) theyre both as effective as the other.


Anyways since this is so sidetracked


Bec is probably a bit too strong, but its more the fault of pierce damage mechanics and polestun than anything else. And the range offsets its benefits by being a rather large drawback outside of duels.

[Dexxtaa]

EU have an immense skill gap.

Either you're a peasant, a total moron, or a demi god, in my experience there.

I've never fought an average player who could block at a consistent level (ie blocks alright, but misses the occasional swing etc)

[Magikarp]

EU have an immense skill gap.

Either you're a peasant, a total moron, or a demi god, in my experience there.

I've never fought an average player who could block at a consistent level (ie blocks alright, but misses the occasional swing etc)

I must say, since the beginning of c-rpg, the EU playerbase has become a lot more skilled than they used to. Sure you got some morons, but the active playerbase is usually skilled.

@Gumdrawp: The difference between my 36/3 118 wpf character and my 148 18/18 character was very noticible. Of course we feint and hold attacks, why else go for agility? I'm just saying, 5 weapon master is a must for me if I want to be a serious competitor against the good players.

[Quallen]

I'm sorry Vieuxcrotter the problem is with you.  You're a newer player and you aren't quite understanding what you're seeing on the battlefield.  We all started there once, its okay.  Its okay to vent too but if you want to become a better player you need to adjust you're attitude a little.  Rather than say the weapon is broken bullshit instead just leave it at I fucking hate that weapon and then once you're more calm ask, okay what do I need to work on to fight that player better.

Some weapons are hard to follow and fight when you don't have much experience against them (longsword, warspear/staff, bec, small one handers behind big shields, ect.)  Once you're comfortable with their animations in each position you have to get used to tracking them through deep feints and then on top of that you have to get comfortable enough to figure out what you're seeing when a player if feinting and spinning around to further mask what he is doing.  The additional headache of fighting polearms is getting used to the length of the polestun.  Attempt to block too soon afterwards and you'll still be stunned and by the time you realize your block isn't going up you might not have enough time to try and block again. Work on improving your skills as a player and then come back to this balance topic.

My problem with the bec isn't actually the bec itself rather its that 2h does not have an equivalent weapon (can opener.)  The morning star might not be the best comparison because of its bonus against shields but given that all the 2h blunt/pierce are unbalance (beside the little mace) the morningstar (with its shield bonus) is the only one even worth comparing.  The below is just one of the many reasons I've gone polearm.

-----

Bec vs morningstar – I've factored animations into weapon length giving their effective range

Dmg – 38 to 36 in favor of Morningstar
Speed – 93 to 92 in favor of Bec
Overhead – 105 to 97 in favor of bec
Left to right – 113 to 99 in favor of bec
Right to left – 118 to 95 in favor of bec
Thurst – Bec wins by default with 139 range
Weight – 3.8 to 2.8 in favor or Morning Star
Price – Morningstar is currently 4158 cheaper.

[Baggy]

I'm sorry Vieuxcrotter the problem is with you.  You're a newer player and you aren't quite understanding what you're seeing on the battlefield.  We all started there once, its okay.  Its okay to vent too but if you want to become a better player you need to adjust you're attitude a little.  Rather than say the weapon is broken bullshit instead just leave it at I fucking hate that weapon and then once you're more calm ask, okay what do I need to work on to fight that player better.

Some weapons are hard to follow and fight when you don't have much experience against them (longsword, warspear/staff, bec, small one handers behind big shields, ect.)  Once you're comfortable with their animations in each position you have to get used to tracking them through deep feints and then on top of that you have to get comfortable enough to figure out what you're seeing when a player if feinting and spinning around to further mask what he is doing.  The additional headache of fighting polearms is getting used to the length of the polestun.  Attempt to block too soon afterwards and you'll still be stunned and by the time you realize your block isn't going up you might not have enough time to try and block again. Work on improving your skills as a player and then come back to this balance topic.

My problem with the bec isn't actually the bec itself rather its that 2h does not have an equivalent weapon (can opener.)  The morning star might not be the best comparison because of its bonus against shields but given that all the 2h blunt/pierce are unbalance (beside the little mace) the morningstar (with its shield bonus) is the only one even worth comparing.  The below is just one of the many reasons I've gone polearm.

-----

Bec vs morningstar – I've factored animations into weapon length giving their effective range

Dmg – 38 to 36 in favor of Morningstar
Speed – 93 to 92 in favor of Bec
Overhead – 105 to 97 in favor of bec
Left to right – 113 to 99 in favor of bec
Right to left – 118 to 95 in favor of bec
Thurst – Bec wins by default with 139 range
Weight – 3.8 to 2.8 in favor or Morning Star
Price – Morningstar is currently 4158 cheaper.

And Unbaanced flag on MS.

[Magikarp]

And Unbaanced flag on MS.

And bonus against shields on Morningstar.

[Baggy]

And bonus against shields on Morningstar.

True dat.

[Tears of Destiny]

I dunno, I am happy that the polearm catagory has different gear then the two handers and that sometimes there are no equivalents for one or the other. Makes them a bit more unique.

[Magikarp]

I dunno, I am happy that the polearm catagory has different gear then the two handers and that sometimes there are no equivalents for one or the other. Makes them a bit more unique.

Indeed, every class has their, although small, perks.