Why do we even need upkeep anymore?

[Joker86]

Nice job with the example armours

Pure coincidence

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[kinngrimm]

Don't get me wrong i am not absolutly against upkeep, as i find it really good that we are done with the all on plated charger all in plate armor times.

Joker, i think i wasn't complettly clear on the usage points

Say medium tear gear to high tear gear needs usage points. (perhaps the name can be better)
It would work like everyone has like 100 usage points.
For example:
A plated body armor would need 30
A light Kuyak would need 15
A mail Shirt would need 10

same with every other gear to a certain lowest limit.
everything below doesn't need usage points and also doesn't have the timers.

You can only buy limited gear all in all up to 100 usage points.
Then you create your sets,
When your good limited gear runs out of time you switch automaticly to either other limited gear if you have enough usage points invested into that
particular area of gear type or your  low level gear.

So basicly it is the same as now, that people switch between different gear, only that it is not done by gold restrictions which are often dependent if you get lucky with your team or the time you play regularly for a longer amount of time.

The timers won't reset if you don't play for a while, every round there is a tick added to the timer till the restriction kicks in and you need to use a different gear,
but as the server provides you with the basic layouts of your gear set, you don't have to configure it all over again ingame and loose time.


EDIT:
This would balance the players who have already huge amounts of cache and are mostly running around in heavy gear anyways and new players at the time they can afford it to buy a piece, will be able to use heavy gear regularly

EDIT2:
@Joker i just read partly about your suggestion about hardcaps, the usage points are more or less like that, and i am not against different maximum usage points dependent on what the player does invest his skill points into. That but must be done very carefully i believe as f.e. hybrids may try to gain the most usage points to increase their hardcap. To have a different skill as you suggested to invest into, would need a complete character reset, nothing impossible, but it would go against the philosophy that players should live with their choices they done while leveling.

[Gozer the Carpathian]

So I'm Gen 1 and I've only been playing cRPG for about... oh say a month now.  (Sounds about right)

Yeah that's right, I don't play enough to get out of Gen 1 in a MONTH. 

Part of that is that I suck.    (I'm honest)
I just hit 28 and with my German Poleaxe I'm finally feeling like I'm DOING something.  (YAY!)  That said at this point I'm lucky to keep 5k gold  (I'm currently at like 3K) in the bank thanks to upkeep.  I have two items that just waste my gold when upkeep hits them, and that's my Druz Lamellar armor and my German Poleaxe.  I understand you want to control the high end stuff but when I have to go over 10 ticks (at a X1 multiplier I'm normally stuck at) or 3+ rounds of defend the Virgin just to break EVEN on ONE of my two items that's just wrong. 

I'm just now viable dang it!  I don't have a mountain of gold or any loom points.  If I get in a bad streak (like last night. Ugh) I can easily lose 5K gold in a few rounds.  That's my NET loss BTW.  I can sort of get away with using lesser armor (I've got my Stepp Armor to fall back on) but without my weapon what am I even doing here?  I can swap down to my Scythe or maybe my pike or bamboo pole but then I'm just not effective.  Do you want me to just scavenge off the battlefield (Which I do for shields all the time)?  Be stuck as an ineffective plebe in leather? 

Sure, when things are going well (I've had my X5 streaks and woo!  Fun. ) the upkeep is totally okay, but speaking as a gen 1 player who does NOT get a lot of play time in (I work rotating shifts and I have a family thank you. :p )  if you get into anything BUT the good streak it's a struggle and just doesn't make the game fun to play.

Honestly I can load up my Napoleon Wars and not put up with being punished even more than losing.  I KNOW I suck but at least outside of cRPG I'm not PUNISHED for sucking. 

[Rebelyell]

upkeep is still better than any of your ideas

try harder

[Joker86]

Joker, i think i wasn't complettly clear on the usage points

Say medium tear gear to high tear gear needs usage points. (perhaps the name can be better)
It would work like everyone has like 100 usage points.
For example:
A plated body armor would need 30
A light Kuyak would need 15
A mail Shirt would need 10

same with every other gear to a certain lowest limit.
everything below doesn't need usage points and also doesn't have the timers.

Clear so far.

You can only buy limited gear all in all up to 100 usage points.

1. First unclear point. Do you mean buy limited gear for your inventory, or buy limited gear as equipment?

Then you create your sets,
When your good limited gear runs out of time you switch automaticly to either other limited gear if you have enough usage points invested into that
particular area of gear type or your  low level gear.

2. How to invest usage points in a particular gear type? How is it limited, what do you pay for it?

So basicly it is the same as now, that people switch between different gear, only that it is not done by gold restrictions which are often dependent if you get lucky with your team or the time you play regularly for a longer amount of time.

3. That's what I was talking about. Limiting the time you can use an item doesn't help balancing the effectivity of different characters. Having a minigun which you can use only once a week isn't balanced, because at that particular time when it is used the weapon would still be OP. When being shot to pieces by the minigun you have only little consolation in the fact that he won't be able to repeat that for a week.

The timers won't reset if you don't play for a while, every round there is a tick added to the timer till the restriction kicks in and you need to use a different gear,
but as the server provides you with the basic layouts of your gear set, you don't have to configure it all over again ingame and loose time.

I need to have the first points clarified to understand this one.

EDIT:
This would balance the players who have already huge amounts of cache and are mostly running around in heavy gear anyways and new players at the time they can afford it to buy a piece, will be able to use heavy gear regularly

See my red comments

@Joker i just read partly about your suggestion about hardcaps, the usage points are more or less like that, and i am not against different maximum usage points dependent on what the player does invest his skill points into. That but must be done very carefully i believe as f.e. hybrids may try to gain the most usage points to increase their hardcap. To have a different skill as you suggested to invest into, would need a complete character reset, nothing impossible, but it would go against the philosophy that players should live with their choices they done while leveling.

Well, I don't see a problem in hybrids trying to get a lot of usage("budget" in my version) points, as they would have to pay it with skills, which makes them even less effective than a pure build in both particular disciplines. That way they would also have to decide whether to go for the best equipment and less skills or better skills and cheap equipment, leading to more variety.

And I think such a fundamental change like implementing a budget system does very well justify a character reset. When they implemented upkeep there was a character reset, too. Anyway, I hate the attitude of the developers that the players have to live with their choices. Because their understanding of it is flawed. I think it is perfectly fine to have them live with their decisions, but letting them decide, then change things AFTERWARDS but still sticking to their "live with it"-attitude is a really dickish behaviour. It's like saying "Do you want ice cream A (vanilla), ice cream B (chocolate) or ice cream C (stracciatela), and when you say "I want ice cream B, please" they say "Ooops! Ice cream B is salmon now. But you have to live with your decision."

So for me the need for a character reset is absolutely no argument against a change. Next to the fact that they always claim it's still a beta, and in betas you lose your characters regularly.

Honestly I can load up my Napoleon Wars and not put up with being punished even more than losing.  I KNOW I suck but at least outside of cRPG I'm not PUNISHED for sucking. 

When upkeep got introduced this was one of my main reservations against that system.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

upkeep is still better than any of your ideas

try harder

Balance the game so that every item is unique and useful in it's own way and that nothing is truly better than something else?

[Piok]

I do not have any problem with upkeep especially now when you could transfer money from alt and sell heirlooms. In cheap gear you could easily make 20k within three hours.
So  make money grinding alt and profit.

[Joker86]

Balance the game so that every item is unique and useful in it's own way and that nothing is truly better than something else?

You could do that, but it would take away the dimension of items of different quality, and limit item diversity. (As you often have only two or three values which can changed within an item category, e.g. armour weight and protection or damage, speed and range for melee weapons.)

I would prefer both: a mixture of having several items of the same value AND having different item "tiers" of different values. (With no clear lines between the tiers, which would be lame. No "Quality level 1 swords" and "Quality level 5 swords".)

I do not have any problem with upkeep especially now when you could transfer money from alt and sell heirlooms. In cheap gear you could easily make 20k within three hours.
So  make money grinding alt and profit.

That's actually the point against the upkeep system. No problems with upkeep => no problems with money => no item limitations => not desired effect.

[Piok]

You could do that, but it would take away the dimension of items of different quality, and limit item diversity. (As you often have only two or three values which can changed within an item category, e.g. armour weight and protection or damage, speed and range for melee weapons.)

I would prefer both: a mixture of having several items of the same value AND having different item "tiers" of different values. (With no clear lines between the tiers, which would be lame. No "Quality level 1 swords" and "Quality level 5 swords".)

That's actually the point against the upkeep system. No problems with upkeep => no problems with money => no item limitations => not desired effect.

Yes on this forum I see constantly:

1.I am running around in rags and still losing money
2.Shit I want to be a Knight a knight in shiny armor and even shinier horse but upkeep is ruining me Buff plate ofc.
3.Damn bodkins they break all the time I swear that I lose more money then my alt with plated charger

So I think that people want to get rid of upkeep only to be without problem use best loomed gear 24/7

[Joker86]

So I think that people want to get rid of upkeep only to be without problem use best loomed gear 24/7

And I think that's okay. If they want, they should be allowed to do so. They are role playing medieval warriors, and they have bought their equipment, so I don't see any reason why they should not be able to use it as long as they want. It's theirs in the end, goddammit!

If they want to use the best loomed items they should be allowed to do so, but they should have to pay it with quite a bunch of skill points. So if you encounter a fully plated knight on his plated charger with his loomed heavy lance, you can be sure he will be either incredibly slow (most likely) or his strikes will be incredibly weak (less likely, as you need STR to use plate), because he can't have both, so everything stays fair. On the other hand, if you see some guy who is playing light infantry, watch out! He might be very fast and hit very hard!

[Lichen]

too many poor players,everything's too expensive,decrease upkeep,too many rich players,everything's too cheap,increase upkeep, everything's overpowered/underpowered nerf/buff it

[Gozer the Carpathian]

Yes on this forum I see constantly:

1.I am running around in rags and still losing money
2.Shit I want to be a Knight a knight in shiny armor and even shinier horse but upkeep is ruining me Buff plate ofc.
3.Damn bodkins they break all the time I swear that I lose more money then my alt with plated charger

So I think that people want to get rid of upkeep only to be without problem use best loomed gear 24/7

I don't care about Loomed gear as I'm not even done with Gen 1.  I can't AFFORD NORMAL gear that's my point.  Unless of course you're saying my German Pole Ax and Lamallar gear is too epic for regular use? 

[Gozer the Carpathian]

I made around 10 k gold plus in 2 hours playing in equipment with total upkeep of 2.6 k (1.2 k only the armor).

If anything upkeep is to low ...

And I lost 5k G in 1 hour of game play with similar equipment upkeep.  (Literally last night.)  That's kind of my point the system as it is works fine if you're doing well. (I've had the pendulum swing the other way and made 5K the previous night) But if you're sucking bad (as I am wont to do) or hit a bad streak of teams, or what have you the system can bury you quickly. 

[Gozer the Carpathian]

So just grind it out that's what you're saying?  I shouldn't need a 50K G reserve to play the game and have fun.  As I said before I can easily just go back to Napoleon DLC instead of this because I'm not being penalized for losing all the time. 

Do you want new players here or not? 

I've done the Korean grind-fest MMO's and honestly I don't need to do them in M&B.  I Don't spend weeks playing this game I come in now and then to have some fun with a sense of accomplishment that you don't get as much in vanilla or Napoleon.  That's what I'm enjoying about cRPG is that I'm growing and improving in tangible ways. 

Yet the current upkeep system penalizes folks like me who aren't "hardcore" or "Dedicated" enough to devote the hours/days/weeks/months to have 50K reserves and such. 

Seriously this IS a good mod, I enjoy it, but it's not an easy one to love when it punishes you to learn about it.  ESPECIALLY when there are other easy options to play that don't. 

[Gozer the Carpathian]

Well, if you are not willed to go through some days of "gold-grind" to have enough gold for average-good euqipment this is the wrong place for you :\

Really?  So the point of the mod IS a grind am I right?  Because I'm level 28 now and I DO have my average-good equipment after said grinding.  So I'm supposed to do it again? 

Seriously if that IS the design statement that's fine I understand but I thought we were talking about updating/fixing/adjust it?