Why do we even need upkeep anymore?

[Bobthehero]

Yeah those carpets and staffs must cost a fortune to buy. Not to speak the upkeep costs :F.

Not that expensive to maintain, considering that using ht carpet guarantees you a x5.

[EyeBeat]

I hope that chadz does something to increase upkeep or something totally revamp upkeep so people can't just sell heirloom points to fund high end gear because they can't be effective using mid/low end gear.

Clans like KUTT take this too far.  When it takes 10 hits to kill someone of lesser skill it just gives them that much more time to get someone to come from behind and hit you. Or you accidentally glance and get hit by an axe with 12 ps.

Xeen claims that the upkeep screws over new players.  However if a new player joins KUTT and get handed tons of plate and high end weapons it instantly makes them 10 times more effective and player skill has nothing to do with it.  So it helps new players in that regard.

CRPG is supposedly focused on player skill.  Yet horsebumps and newb plate/str crutchers take no skill and are way to effective for just plainly existing.

[Mosquito]

if you don't lose multi you shouldn't pay ANY upkeep, i know some will say it just ups the stakes but winning should be profitable (game doesn't let us loot the dead )

i agree that a problem is being created by long standing players having so much cash that they can just shrug off upkeep and use whatever they like; this seems to defeat the object of upkeep. Stop the unrealistic mechanism of 'selling loompoints' problem solved and back to even playing field and no substantial barrier to entry for new players!. Long standing players already have a bonus to xp gain, thats enough.

When a new player asks the community what they should be heirlooming at first generation and the overwhelming advice is that 'they shouldn't but they should sell their loompoint' it should be pretty clear that something isn't working properly with the game's economy.

[Lichen]

The thing is, upkeep hurts new players the most. All these veterans have enough cash to wear whatever the fuck they want whenever they want to for unending periods. And soon they'll just sell another loom point, they have no need to worry about repairs. Where new players are stuck with shit gear trying to just get through their first gen or two without quitting. At least without upkeep the playing field is evened and anyone can be a plate baddy.

So no upkeep = everyone can now wear plate......ok...now everyone is wearing plate......hmmmm.....new forum topics appear such as 'wtf why is everyone in plate?..nerf it so no one but people who like to punish themselves will wear it'.....plate gets nerfed..no one uses it.....now everybody is in medium gear.....new forum topic....'why is everyone in medium gear?.....it's too good...nerf it'.....medium gear is nerfed and no one uses it.....now everybody wears rags......new forum topic...'why is everyone leeching in rags and super agile?'..nerf rags and athletics'.....rags and athletics are nerfed. 

[Kuyamzoleta]

So no upkeep = everyone can now wear plate......ok...now everyone is wearing plate......hmmmm.....new forum topics appear such as 'wtf why is everyone in plate?..nerf it so no one but people who like to punish themselves will wear it'.....plate gets nerfed..no one uses it.....now everybody is in medium gear.....new forum topic....'why is everyone in medium gear?.....it's too good...nerf it'.....medium gear is nerfed and no one uses it.....now everybody wears rags......new forum topic...'why is everyone leeching in rags and super agile?'..nerf rags and athletics'.....rags and athletics are nerfed.

I feel like we're all more into what we look like cosmetically rather than seeing who can shove their dick in the most mouths. however i'm okay with the latter if we choose as such in our collective

[Joker86]

By removing upkeep you basically give everyone the green light to wear full milanese plate all day and use only the high end weapons.

Remind me again how this benefits new players?

That's why you need a "hard" equipment cap, not a "soft" one like upkeep.

It needs to be balanced accordingly to the class the player is playing, as a "knight" will need a higher budget than an archer. But the only thing I could think of was balancing it with character stats, which means you need to invest skill points to raise your equipment cap, but that got denied by the community. So actually I don't know any other solution, but fact is with the market place the upkeep system has lost its only purpose: limiting worn equipment.

[Tzar]

I say remove heirlooms and the character creation an gold.

Just make it like Native.

[TurmoilTom]

I hope that chadz does something to increase upkeep or something totally revamp upkeep so people can't just sell heirloom points to fund high end gear because they can't be effective using mid/low end gear.

All upkeep serves to do in my eyes is prevent people from using what they want to use (i.e. discourage variety), like chadz-text. I'd prefer if higher tier horses, armors, and weapons were balanced properly as opposed to intended to result in bankruptcy just because a given person likes the style of it. Might as well remove all silver-metallic armors from the game if you're going to make it a pain to use them.

Clans like KUTT take this too far.  When it takes 10 hits to kill someone of lesser skill it just gives them that much more time to get someone to come from behind and hit you. Or you accidentally glance and get hit by an axe with 12 ps.

That's kind of the point. If we want our guys to move quickly we'd have them in lighter armor or use more athletics, but it's just not worth it given the small chokepoints that are common in most siege maps (which is what a lot of our members play exclusively). There are builds suited for different game-modes and a lot of us have specialized in siege builds. For example, one of the biggest problems with throwers is low ammunition, but we can utilize weapon racks near vital chokepoints in siege to replenish their ammo so they can rain hell down on the attackers. Another example is cavalry. Are cavalry supposed to be utilized in castle sieges? Probably, under given circumstances, but I think it's a given that they aren't intended to be a deciding factor in that given situation. Also, as far as I know, KUTT doesn't have many full strength builds. Sosarian is 36/3, but that's the only person I can think of off the top of my head. The rest of us are either balanced or slightly strength-leaned (I'm a 27/12 shielder, for example). Also, isn't Para the only one of us who is always wearing plate?

Xeen claims that the upkeep screws over new players.  However if a new player joins KUTT and get handed tons of plate and high end weapons it instantly makes them 10 times more effective and player skill has nothing to do with it.  So it helps new players in that regard.

The majority of new players don't end up joining KUTT. You're thinking of Hospitaller. Also, if you think plate makes someone 10 times better than they would be in light-medium armor you should get a blunt or pierce weapon. Might help.

CRPG is supposedly focused on player skill.  Yet horsebumps and newb plate/str crutchers take no skill and are way to effective for just plainly existing.

cRPG is not based on player skill. You're thinking of Native. How you design your character determines your ability in given situations as much, if not more than skill does and that's just how it is. The mod has been headed in this direction for a while now, can't be too hard to notice.

[kinngrimm]

Sad but true story, i got clan mates who sell their hard earned loom points to pay for their upkeep, and no they don't run around in max gear all the time.

Exchange upkeep with tickets and cooldown and usage points.

Dependent on item give them f.e. the ability to be used for 20 rounds then it can't be used for 5 rounds.
Also dependent on item, it needs usage points out of your usage point pool.
If that pool is used up, you can't use higher tear gear anymore.

That but would need several more outfits on every character and therefor more gold. Also a safe option for gear set 1-x would then be most welcome,
Anytime a part of your gear, reaches the cooldown, the servers switches to your next default gear, which may not be the same.




That way you can keep a balance to the items that'll be used without the need that players have to loose anything.

You can still reduce the gold income so people are only slowly buing stuff, but that is only a secondary balancing method in my mind.

The only good thing about upkeep is, that it makes people choose between lesser evils, less loss of gold or less good gear.
You may argue that that is part of the fun, still i believe it is more a matter of opinion and not logic as it is now.

[Tzar]

I honestly don't see what's the big problem with current upkeep atm besides screwing new players over who have a hard time earning a decent buffer for good or for worse days.

Kinngrimm i don't see the need to police what gear people can use or not.

The days of OP plate usage or plated chargers being a problem are long gone.

Atleast on the EU side if u ask me.

[rustyspoon]

If there was truly a God, he would have let this thread die long ago...

[Joker86]

Sad but true story, i got clan mates who sell their hard earned loom points to pay for their upkeep, and no they don't run around in max gear all the time.

Exchange upkeep with tickets and cooldown and usage points.

Dependent on item give them f.e. the ability to be used for 20 rounds then it can't be used for 5 rounds.
Also dependent on item, it needs usage points out of your usage point pool.
If that pool is used up, you can't use higher tear gear anymore.

That but would need several more outfits on every character and therefor more gold. Also a safe option for gear set 1-x would then be most welcome,
Anytime a part of your gear, reaches the cooldown, the servers switches to your next default gear, which may not be the same.




That way you can keep a balance to the items that'll be used without the need that players have to loose anything.

You can still reduce the gold income so people are only slowly buing stuff, but that is only a secondary balancing method in my mind.

The only good thing about upkeep is, that it makes people choose between lesser evils, less loss of gold or less good gear.
You may argue that that is part of the fun, still i believe it is more a matter of opinion and not logic as it is now.

This solution won't work well.

First of all, once your time with

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This would balance nothing, and just add an annoyance.

We do agree that upkeep needs to be replaced with something different, but this change needs to have an "active" effect on the player, not a "passive" one. Your suggestion (limited availability) would be a passive one for example. High upkeep, difficulties to acquire, limited ammunition or similar things are passive, because they have no active influence on the fight itself. Your opponent doesn't feel those limitations you have. A nice example would be the pocket-nuclear-bomb. Buying the item costs 100.000.000 (one hundred mil.) gold, upkeep is corresponding, you can use it once a week and you can only use it if you own at least five fiefs in strat. Still when it's thrown and kills every enemy on the map it is unbalanced. The enemies did nothing wrong, and yet they have to die, because a particular player has proven he has no real life. This is not how balance works.

You need a system where all players are equally effective, at least on the paper. They have to decide between different factors like mobility, protection, damage, flexibility and so on, but all those values added should always have the same result, never mind which combination you use. My idea for example was to need skills to use better equipment. That way, if someone appears in front of you, with full plate and a flamberge, you know you still have a chance, because his skills are worse than yours. This makes you FEEL the penalties he has to pay for his superior equipment, making this solution an "active" penalty effect. We need something like that.

[SMEGMAR]

Upkeep keeps 90% of the community from wearing plate / riding plated chargers 100% of the time.

[Kafein]

Upkeep keeps 90% of the community from wearing plate / riding plated chargers 100% of the time.

Ladies and gentlemen, a time traveler from 2010.

[Zandieer]

This solution won't work well.

First of all, once your time with

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runs out, you use

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.

This would balance nothing, and just add an annoyance.

We do agree that upkeep needs to be replaced with something different, but this change needs to have an "active" effect on the player, not a "passive" one. Your suggestion (limited availability) would be a passive one for example. High upkeep, difficulties to acquire, limited ammunition or similar things are passive, because they have no active influence on the fight itself. Your opponent doesn't feel those limitations you have. A nice example would be the pocket-nuclear-bomb. Buying the item costs 100.000.000 (one hundred mil.) gold, upkeep is corresponding, you can use it once a week and you can only use it if you own at least five fiefs in strat. Still when it's thrown and kills every enemy on the map it is unbalanced. The enemies did nothing wrong, and yet they have to die, because a particular player has proven he has no real life. This is not how balance works.

You need a system where all players are equally effective, at least on the paper. They have to decide between different factors like mobility, protection, damage, flexibility and so on, but all those values added should always have the same result, never mind which combination you use. My idea for example was to need skills to use better equipment. That way, if someone appears in front of you, with full plate and a flamberge, you know you still have a chance, because his skills are worse than yours. This makes you FEEL the penalties he has to pay for his superior equipment, making this solution an "active" penalty effect. We need something like that.

Nice job with the example armours