Why do we even need upkeep anymore?

[Cyclopsided]

57 body armor is "heavy" it is not however plate. Most of the people I know can always upkeep heavy, but only 5 or so I know upkeep full plate 90%+ of the time.
I think I can upkeep high heavy armor 24/7.

[Lordark]

The marketplace is your friend to make some good loot for your crpg character. Research the marketplace see whats hot and put a good price. Ive played for 1 year and only had like 40 k saved up which started to go down after new upkeep system (was never very good). Noticed I DID have a few hierlooms saved up; sold those for a tidy profit. Now Im not worrying about cash. New player can do this as well!

[chadz]

Eh...this has changed how?

The choice changed. Before, there was one option: grind. Now, there are many options. If grinding is your game, you can still do it. I, for one, don't have to grind to be competitive or have fun. I don't have to play a minimum amount of hours per day/week to be able to kill the heroes. This is why it was introduced, this is why it's here to stay.

[Overdriven]

The choice changed. Before, there was one option: grind. Now, there are many options. If grinding is your game, you can still do it. I, for one, don't have to grind to be competitive or have fun. I don't have to play a minimum amount of hours per day/week to be able to kill the heroes. This is why it was introduced, this is why it's here to stay.

So even though something isn't liked by a lot of people, and the ones supporting it largely support it simply because you can make money through the marketplace, selling heirloom points ect, it's still going to stay? Seems a little counter productive. Ignore your community to just do whatever the hell you want.

And the choice hasn't changed. You're delusional if you think that. Crpg is a grinder, will always probably be a grinder. If you start out as a new player, what do you have to do to get even a slight amount of gold? Play in peasant gear and grind it out before you can even buy your first sword. Upkeep simply prolongs the grinding process. It's all very well for those who have every bit of shiny equipment bought, but there are plenty that don't. And many that don't have 30K-35K to fall back on.

Why do you think people who start alts often use skip the fun? Largely to skip the unnecessary grind needed to get enough gold to buy anything, and to get the instant xp to avoid that grind aspect.

Just reduce upkeep at least, then you can still have you're little pet that you obviously love so much, but you'd make a lot of people happier and enjoy this more.

[chadz]

First of all, I don't care if people think it's a grinding game or not. For me, it isn't. If everyone except me plays to grind, I'm still happy with it, because I'm not bothered with it. I can play and have fun. It's a sandbox game, you can do whatever you like and is possible within the rules. We define the rules.

The majority is fine with the upkeep. It is, as always, a loud minority that tries to lobby.

I know you are upset, because you cannot afford the best equipment possible anymore. Or at least not all of the time. But I have to tell you, that was never intended. It is a bug, if you will.

People got so used to wearing the most expensive stuff all the time. It was our fault for not dealing with this earlier, because this is not how we want to see our game go. While we are not that much into reality in detail, we want to preserve a "global realism". And as many people have stated, wars and skirmishes weren't fought by platers, it was fought by poor people. Before the latest patch, I was wearing everything. I had high end armor, even gauntlets, an occasional horse, a big ass polearm and a secondary polearm that was faster. And I was still earning money.

This was not intended. I'd say it's different now (it isn't really because the upkeep increase was like 5 to 10% from the previous cost), but our idea is that you have to make a choice. Go for armor strength or for weapon strenght. Not both. If you want both, pay for it.

So, we know many of the choices are not popular. I understand it. But you have to understand we are not here to please the community first and foremost. We don't get paid, the reason we're doing is is because we want to create a game WE want to play.

So I will tell you how we decide what stays and what goes:
Would the feature/balance change make the game better if there was a wipe tomorrow. If all players would just start tomorrow and haven't played the game before. Would you, if you would have never heard of the mod, the game, be like "what, your average gear is now only (x) gold? This game would be much better if it were (x*1.1) gold!". I doubt it. (Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question)

That's what we think when doing changes. Not if it pisses off the current community. Of course this often does not work with how the game currently works. People got used to what they can wear, and they are defending this. It's understandable, really. But not what we thrive for.

This is a beta. Of a mod. People forget that because the community is pretty big, and that's cool, really. But just trying to halt developement because you got settled with the old rules is not going to help anyone. This isn't a promotional beta, it's a REAL beta. This means things changes. If you can't adapt and wait for us to screen the results to see if the changes are good for the game or not, this game won't make you happy. Because this definately wasn't the last change.

Also, we are currently considering removing upkeep for players < Gen1Level25.

Tl;dr:
give us some time to valuate how it works out.

[Magikarp]

The almighty chadz has spoken!

I still think some items repair for way too much gold, but you'll hopefully find out some more during your evaluation.

[Dezilagel]

So even though something isn't liked by a lot of people, and the ones supporting it largely support it simply because you can make money through the marketplace, selling heirloom points ect, it's still going to stay? Seems a little counter productive. Ignore your community to just do whatever the hell you want.

And the choice hasn't changed. You're delusional if you think that. Crpg is a grinder, will always probably be a grinder. If you start out as a new player, what do you have to do to get even a slight amount of gold? Play in peasant gear and grind it out before you can even buy your first sword. Upkeep simply prolongs the grinding process. It's all very well for those who have every bit of shiny equipment bought, but there are plenty that don't. And many that don't have 30K-35K to fall back on.

Why do you think people who start alts often use skip the fun? Largely to skip the unnecessary grind needed to get enough gold to buy anything, and to get the instant xp to avoid that grind aspect.

Just reduce upkeep at least, then you can still have you're little pet that you obviously love so much, but you'd make a lot of people happier and enjoy this more.

Wow...

You sure go a long way to lobby for your 3x bodkins and jetpony 

As a new player myself, money just ceased to be an issue roughly a week or so after I started playing. And unless you are a clueless idiot, managing your gold should not be a problem.

Character customization in all it's glory, but managing your gold is as much part of the game as anything else. The game gives you certain limitations, gold is one of them. Deal with it.

Besides, if there weren't inequalities in the economical status of the players, the battlefield would be a lot less diverse. Having one or two guys on the opposing team with full plate and the heaviest weapons doesn't really affect you that much, but if the entire playerbase was given access to the heaviest weapons/armor constantly... Figure it out for yourself.

Also, if there is anything this game gives you it's options. If you don't want to grind, you really don't have to at all. You can just stf, use a reasonable amount of gear and that's it. No "grind" at all (because I wouldn't call the period of leveling up from 1-mid 20's a grind, being a peasant is also part of the game imo.)

If you really can't enjoy the game without constantly having access to your three stacks of +3 bodkins and supercharged horsie, then that is, tbh, your problem and not mine. Here once again you have several options, if you want your high-end gear so bad, you can grind for it. Or sell your looms. Or you can just lower your equipment cost. Or you can make an effort to organize your team/get better at the game and win more for higher multi's. ...Point being, you have a bunch of options aside from your hopeless struggle here on the forums.

(click to show/hide)

And if you want to beat that fully loomed tincan, just grab a mace and kick his ass in melee. (satisfaction guaranteed!) If you feel this is too hard due to stat differences, then chadz has given you this handy little "respec" button to play with. _{Or you can be a f@g and just kite him to death}

Maybe you don't want to (for whatever reason), but the option exists.

[Overdriven]

(click to show/hide)

First of all, I don't care if people think it's a grinding game or not. For me, it isn't. If everyone except me plays to grind, I'm still happy with it, because I'm not bothered with it. I can play and have fun. It's a sandbox game, you can do whatever you like and is possible within the rules. We define the rules.

The majority is fine with the upkeep. It is, as always, a loud minority that tries to lobby.

I know you are upset, because you cannot afford the best equipment possible anymore. Or at least not all of the time. But I have to tell you, that was never intended. It is a bug, if you will.

People got so used to wearing the most expensive stuff all the time. It was our fault for not dealing with this earlier, because this is not how we want to see our game go. While we are not that much into reality in detail, we want to preserve a "global realism". And as many people have stated, wars and skirmishes weren't fought by platers, it was fought by poor people. Before the latest patch, I was wearing everything. I had high end armor, even gauntlets, an occasional horse, a big ass polearm and a secondary polearm that was faster. And I was still earning money.

This was not intended. I'd say it's different now (it isn't really because the upkeep increase was like 5 to 10% from the previous cost), but our idea is that you have to make a choice. Go for armor strength or for weapon strenght. Not both. If you want both, pay for it.

So, we know many of the choices are not popular. I understand it. But you have to understand we are not here to please the community first and foremost. We don't get paid, the reason we're doing is is because we want to create a game WE want to play.

So I will tell you how we decide what stays and what goes:
Would the feature/balance change make the game better if there was a wipe tomorrow. If all players would just start tomorrow and haven't played the game before. Would you, if you would have never heard of the mod, the game, be like "what, your average gear is now only (x) gold? This game would be much better if it were (x*1.1) gold!". I doubt it. (Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question)

That's what we think when doing changes. Not if it pisses off the current community. Of course this often does not work with how the game currently works. People got used to what they can wear, and they are defending this. It's understandable, really. But not what we thrive for.

This is a beta. Of a mod. People forget that because the community is pretty big, and that's cool, really. But just trying to halt developement because you got settled with the old rules is not going to help anyone. This isn't a promotional beta, it's a REAL beta. This means things changes. If you can't adapt and wait for us to screen the results to see if the changes are good for the game or not, this game won't make you happy. Because this definately wasn't the last change.

Also, we are currently considering removing upkeep for players < Gen1Level25.

Tl;dr:
give us some time to valuate how it works out.

Finally a decent answer! That was what I was working for.

But wanting 3x bodkins and a courser for an HA isn't gunning for the best gear, I use steppe armour for god's sake But yes there are issues with certain things like arrow upkeep and other aspects that are just to high. But I agree that the vast majority is good.

I enjoy the game, I love the game and I would have stopped playing Warband long ago if it wasn't for crpg. I have never said I don't love it, just that certain aspects can take away some of the fun. But if upkeep eventually gets fully balanced properly then I'm happy. I appreciate the work you and the devs put into this mod. It has created something great and something enjoyable for a lot of people. Just due to the beta nature it can cause a bit of raging sometimes. But thank you for writing a proper reply!

(click to show/hide)

Wow...

You sure go a long way to lobby for your 3x bodkins and jetpony 

As a new player myself, money just ceased to be an issue roughly a week or so after I started playing. And unless you are a clueless idiot, managing your gold should not be a problem.

Character customization in all it's glory, but managing your gold is as much part of the game as anything else. The game gives you certain limitations, gold is one of them. Deal with it.

Besides, if there weren't inequalities in the economical status of the players, the battlefield would be a lot less diverse. Having one or two guys on the opposing team with full plate and the heaviest weapons doesn't really affect you that much, but if the entire playerbase was given access to the heaviest weapons/armor constantly... Figure it out for yourself.

Also, if there is anything this game gives you it's options. If you don't want to grind, you really don't have to at all. You can just stf, use a reasonable amount of gear and that's it. No "grind" at all (because I wouldn't call the period of leveling up from 1-mid 20's a grind, being a peasant is also part of the game imo.)

If you really can't enjoy the game without constantly having access to your three stacks of +3 bodkins and supercharged horsie, then that is, tbh, your problem and not mine. Here once again you have several options, if you want your high-end gear so bad, you can grind for it. Or sell your looms. Or you can just lower your equipment cost. Or you can make an effort to organize your team/get better at the game and win more for higher multi's. ...Point being, you have a bunch of options aside from your hopeless struggle here on the forums.

(click to show/hide)

And if you want to beat that fully loomed tincan, just grab a mace and kick his ass in melee. (satisfaction guaranteed!) If you feel this is too hard due to stat differences, then chadz has given you this handy little "respec" button to play with. _{Or you can be a f@g and just kite him to death}

Maybe you don't want to (for whatever reason), but the option exists.

I go a long way to lobby for those things because they are kinda critical for HA. You do know arrows can't even damage alot of the medium-heavy armour and don't even register damage right?  Bodkins are kinda necessary in order to do any real damage to some of the heavier players. And upper tier horses, not heavies, are necessary to survive all the missles that fly around (the lower tiers just don't). So yes, it is kinda important to lobby for those things if not having them screws your class up a bit.

As I have said 100000 times, and made other threads about, upkeep is generally a good thing, it's just to high for certain items. I mostly wrote extreme views in this thread simply to get a decent answer out of someone because I don't like seeing change with no one explaining why they made those changes, especially for something as major as this. But I made the thread about upkeep between classes as a more balanced view, or an attempt at that. So now I have that explanation from chadz, I'm happy.

You wrote all that for no reason?  Evidently it is your problem if you feel the need to write about it

This thread could probably be locked now that chadz has written a final answer.

[Blondin]

Don't lock the thread or ppl will create new topics about how upkeep is so high...
You could even stick chadz's answer, because it's'clear and ppl should understand the inner interest of upkeep.
I'm one to say that without upkeep/ slot rules/lvl cap the mod would have been boring and i would have quit.

[rustyspoon]

Also, we are currently considering removing upkeep for players < Gen1Level25.

This would be great. New players are lost enough as it is and this would help them try stuff out before getting punched in the nuts by upkeep.

Still, I'd like to see upkeep raised for high-tier stuff and lowered for mid-low tier stuff.

[Baggy]

The choice changed. Before, there was one option: grind. Now, there are many options. If grinding is your game, you can still do it. I, for one, don't have to grind to be competitive or have fun. I don't have to play a minimum amount of hours per day/week to be able to kill the heroes. This is why it was introduced, this is why it's here to stay.

Yes you do, everybody needs practice to get good.

[Tears of Destiny]

Yes you do, everybody needs practice to get good.

Practicing is not grinding though, as it involves more then watching a wee little bar slowly increase for the sake of increasing.

[Corrado_Decimo]

Practicing is not grinding though, as it involves more then watching a wee little bar slowly increase for the sake of increasing.

but grinding 6 gens reward you with 20% more armor on a medium armor set (body and gauntlets).

example:
- studded leather over mail + scale gauntlets = 51 body armor
- lordly studded leather over mail + lordly scale gauntlets = 65 armor

means that having medium armor with his medium weight with armor factor of a plate set, really make the difference.

if you still think people grind to watch a wee little bar slowly increase for the sake of increasing... 

[Baggy]

but grinding 6 gens reward you with 20% more armor on a medium armor set (body and gauntlets).

example:
- studded leather over mail + scale gauntlets = 51 body armor
- lordly studded leather over mail + lordly scale gauntlets = 65 armor

means that having medium armor with his medium weight with armor factor of a plate set, really make the difference.

if you still think people grind to watch a wee little bar slowly increase for the sake of increasing... 

Some ppl do they're called Koreans.

[Dezilagel]

but grinding 6 gens reward you with 20% more armor on a medium armor set (body and gauntlets).

example:
- studded leather over mail + scale gauntlets = 51 body armor
- lordly studded leather over mail + lordly scale gauntlets = 65 armor

means that having medium armor with his medium weight with armor factor of a plate set, really make the difference.

if you still think people grind to watch a wee little bar slowly increase for the sake of increasing... 

Let the grinders grind, I dun give a fuk.

Can still easily be overcome with a little skill.