Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!

[Shinobi]

Id like to see the same design as similar range weapons have, bow, throwing. If you dont have the proficiency then you cant even pick the weapon up, or like in throwing if you don´t have enough wp a big red text will tell you that you sir are now gimpt.

Should take care of the shotgun with no investment at all needed with full damage retained at least.  Else I dont mind people having great damage dealing snipers, still one shot kills is a tad to much for fun so "personally" I would like it balance to at least 2 hit kills on medium armor over the spectrum regardless of looms unless the head is hit of course. Still the game is fun so its not a show stopper, il still eat crossbow bolts and keep on coming back while muttering to myself. In the end I know I use one of the very most hated weapons right now, throwing lance so how can I judge another great damage dealer to harsh. With investment trade off and dedication It is almost fine  

I´m going to go into xbow myself as its one of the two iv played the very least, least being cav (makes me dizzy) so I´m looking forward to it and who knows maybe il be the one whining when it get nurfed . Thats how it goes.

[Okkam]

MadJackMcMad
Wow, why facts about overpowered weapon make you rage? Because you do not like to hear truth? Or because without this weapon you'll be useless? Or you just don't know how not to be rude? Choose your option.

1. Xbows do much more damage in cRPG than in Native.
Yes, Native is just FPS now, we all hate Native. Only cRPG is melee oasis. But stop - xbows in cRPG do 33% more damage. Long live FPS!

2. In your point of view Arbalest is balanced yet still have:
Best range in game
Best projectile speed in game
Best damage in game
Best accuracy in game
No skill requirements (so you can make 15\27 monkey runner character, but still can use most damaging weapon in game)
Good quantity of ammunition
Good chance to penetrate shields (no one weapon have this ability) if you know where to aim
And only one negative future - weapon speed

Great balance Grumpy. You must be really proud to use this weapon.

I haven't the disposition to trawl through databases of articles for your benefit.  It will have to suffice for me to say,  the amount of whine they generate here and now is very much historically accurate.

Maybe this explanation works when you talking with your mother, or school teacher, but not here.

[Siiem]

To be fair the best damage in the game is still a couched lance.

[Bobthehero]

Good chance to penetrate shields (no one weapon have this ability) if you know where to aim

I point you to the 2h hammers ovehead attack.

[MadJackMcMad]

1. Xbows do much more damage in cRPG than in Native.
Yes, Native is just FPS now, we all hate Native. Only cRPG is melee oasis. But stop - xbows in cRPG do 33% more damage. Long live FPS!

Please clearly state what you desire.  Do you wish crossbows to be removed entirely?  Do you wish their damage to be decreased - which would in effect remove them:  Sever statistics show that crossbows account for 5% of deaths.  Would you like that to be 2.5% instead - so that one death in fifty is by crossbow?

2. In your point of view Arbalest is balanced yet still have:
Best range in game
Best projectile speed in game
Best damage in game
Best accuracy in game
No skill requirements (so you can make 15\27 monkey runner character, but still can use most damaging weapon in game)
Good quantity of ammunition
Good chance to penetrate shields (no one weapon have this ability) if you know where to aim
And only one negative future - weapon speed

I am glad to see you delved into such detail with your one and only disadvantage of the Arbalest.  Had you not, one may think you were as bias as you claim I am.  I will give you a few more statistics to choke on.  An Arbalest is in fact out damaged by a Longbow over time.  At optimum damage (Point Blank vs Naked Chest) an Arbalest can dish out 13dps.  A Longbow can do 23dps (due to a rate of fire over twice as fast).  Granted an Arbalest is the most damaging weapon in the game . . . point blank.  However once range comes into the equation, the sting of the Arbalest begins to drop quite swiftly.  A MW Arbalest loaded with MW Bolts will not hit you for 100p at long, medium or even short range.  It will only do so if the bolt is already touching your chest when it is fired.

(click to show/hide)

(Raw) damage is randomised sligthly(0.9-1.0) but both of the following armor soak and reduce calculation armor is randomised by 0.5 to 1.0. So with higher the armor level the target has, the wider is the possible damage range.

Example:
MW Arbalest with MW steel bolts -> base_damage = 100p

against naked, point blank, body shot:
90 to 100 damage (aka certain death)

against 30 (body) armor, point blank, body shot:
55 to 81 damage, 67 avr, damage span = 81 - 55 = 26

against 50 armor, point blank, body shot:
38 to 70 damage, 52 avr, damage span = 70 - 38 = 32

against 70 armor, point blank, body shot:
25 to 61 damage, 40 avr, damage span = 61 - 25 = 36

Maybe this explanation works when you talking with your mother . . .

It certainly worked with yours.  But japes aside, the strongest Arbalests were 5000lbf and reportedly could be accurate up to 90m, depending on weather.  You can trust the referenced words of Wikipedia, or you can claim to know better.  Up to you.

[Paul]

lol, accurate at 900m. try to be accurate at 400m with an iron sighted rifle which has about ten times the v0.

one can be very happy when being accurate at 90m with a bow or crossbow. imo for distances above that they become area weapons best used in groups.

also lol at negative future. one more negative future: fcking expensive

[MadJackMcMad]

lol, accurate at 900m. try to be accurate at 400m with an iron sighted rifle which has about ten times the v0.

Sounded excessive, yes.  I thought it may be including the non hand held variety.  Either that or the bolts are guided.  But it's on wikipedia so it must be true.  Likely a typo.  90m perhaps?  It is queer the lack of papers on the subject.  Most focus on the longbow, some the crossbow, but few delve into detail of the powers of the windlass arbalests.  They merely state they were 'stronger' than regular crossbows.

EDIT.  On accuracy, I am reading references which indicate crossbows were more accurate due to 'reduced elastic hysteresis'.

[Paul]

I actually have no idea what the v0 of the latest, high powered arbalest were but I guess they could get a pretty high maximum range(fired at 45° if target and shooter have same height position). to shoot 900m you'd need a v0 of 94 m/s without air friction - maybe possible with the highest draw weights and steel bows. but shooting that way isn't accurate.

the main reason why arbalest is fine is that using it with 1 wpf will make you lose gold rapidly due the increased break chance.

[MadJackMcMad]

the main reason why arbalest is fine is that using it with 1 wpf will make you lose gold rapidly due the increased break chance.

You mean we ain't getting 90 speed after all?  Quash my hopes will you.

[Okkam]

Grumpy
Medieval weapon was accurate at 900m? Thank you Grumpy, you make me laugh for some time. Use wiki moar.
You need at least rifled barrel to be accurate at 150m. Do you even know when rifled barrel was invented?


Sorry Paul, but price is not the future of weapon. And even not an argument in this discussion

Standard Loadout.

Arbalest
Steel Bolts
Fighting Axe

Kettle Helmet
Kuyak (light)
Leather Gloves
Rus Cavalry Boots

43,710 value.

The Arbalest is the most expensive piece, coming in now at 1300 abouts to repair.  I am reliably gaining money even with the increases, so I do not see an issue.  I am not generally a cynical person . . . but it strikes me that most of the complaints are coming from people who seem to believe that if they cannot wear plate every round and make a profit, then there is something wrong with the system. 

If the issue is with cavalry perhaps a system where Horse upkeep is decreased based on riding skill.  Not by too much however, it still must be more expensive than foot.

See?

[MadJackMcMad]

See?

I have 160 proficiency.  I see that you does not see.

[Okkam]

Thank you Grumpy, you just confirm that repair price of the arbalest do not disturb you.

Please clearly state what you desire.  Do you wish crossbows to be removed entirely?  Do you wish their damage to be decreased - which would in effect remove them:  Sever statistics show that crossbows account for 5% of deaths.  Would you like that to be 2.5% instead - so that one death in fifty is by crossbow?

At first
I do not understand why xbows in cRPG thus much better than xbows in Native. How you can justufy it?

At second

Example:
MW Arbalest with MW steel bolts -> base_damage = 100p

against naked, point blank, body shot:
90 to 100 damage (aka certain death)

against 30 (body) armor, point blank, body shot:
55 to 81 damage, 67 avr, damage span = 81 - 55 = 26

against 50 armor, point blank, body shot:
38 to 70 damage, 52 avr, damage span = 70 - 38 = 32

against 70 armor, point blank, body shot:
25 to 61 damage, 40 avr, damage span = 61 - 25 = 36

This info from Paul just confirm that mw Arbales and MW Bolts can oneshot you even in 70 armor, even if you have 15str and 5IF. Also speed\height bonus doesn't count there. And you are bad ranged player if you do not use this advantages.


At third

But japes aside, the strongest Arbalests were 5000lbf

omg...
you know... someone just joking in Wiki. Do not be so trustful.

http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html


Bobthehero

I point you to the 2h hammers ovehead attack

Point me to the Hammer, that can do it from 50m.

[MadJackMcMad]

At first
I do not understand why xbows in cRPG thus much better than xbows in Native. How you can justufy it?

People do not like to get shot, and the rate of fire was unrealistic.  When the rate of fire was lowered the damage was increased to compensate.  If this had not been done, then crossbows would account for 2.5% of deaths, rather than their current 5%.

At second
This info from Paul just confirm that mw Arbales and MW Bolts can oneshot you even in 70 armor, even if you have 15str and 5IF. Also speed\height bonus doesn't count there. And you are bad ranged player if you do not use this advantages.

Are you or are you not ignoring the fact that Paul's statistics are taken from point blank range?  A range, which I should add, ranged players commonly try to avoid.  I cannot parry with a crossbow and an opponent is unlikely to relent his attack to allow me to reload.

Bobthehero
Point me to the Hammer, that can do it from 50m.

Point me to the crossbow that can do it from 50m.  Unless the shield in question is low quality.

[Cup1d]

Standard Loadout.

Arbalest
Steel Bolts
Fighting Axe

Kettle Helmet
Kuyak (light)
Leather Gloves
Rus Cavalry Boots

43,710 value.

The Arbalest is the most expensive piece, coming in now at 1300 abouts to repair.  I am reliably gaining money even with the increases, so I do not see an issue.  I am not generally a cynical person . . . but it strikes me that most of the complaints are coming from people who seem to believe that if they cannot wear plate every round and make a profit, then there is something wrong with the system. 

If the issue is with cavalry perhaps a system where Horse upkeep is decreased based on riding skill.  Not by too much however, it still must be more expensive than foot.

Your loadout cost 34,307 gold. Do not mislead people.

And yes, I want to see this 5000lbf crossbow too. Incredible researching.
Even this thingy has only 4800lbf - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Lapua_Magnum

[Tears of Destiny]

I think he was mistaking lbs with Newtons, I have seen a few sources say such and such were 5000 Newtons, but that is a wee bit different.