Reverse mode and knockdowns

[Senni__Ti]

I think most people choosing 1h picks/maces/hammers nowadays value hard-to-see models moreso than knockdown or stats. Everyone complains about the Spathovaklion being hard to see, but with Final Boss' texture pack it's a bright silver (much easier to see than the normal dark gray). Like I said before, I'm not a fan of 1h knockdown, but I do love the thump sound that blunt weapons make on contact.

I really wish the Spathovaklion had knockdown removed (maybe have 1b added to compensate). Then we'd have a nice thumpy 1h weapon without dealing with all the annoyances of knockdown. That thing doesn't look like it could knock anyone over; it has less mass at the head than any axe.

I would enjoy a nice thumpy weapon, I just feel like an arse when I use a KD weapon :/.

[Kafein]

Slow?

Which weapon are you talking about?
Slowest I could find is 95 speed. (military hammer)

Senni, speed doesn't translate directly across like that.  Also don't forget to factor in that having a shield slows your swings down too.  Plus 1hers are generally shorter and can't start swinging until they're closer in.

This. Speed rating has only a very small impact on the actual time to hit in combat. Compare the time between clicking and hitting of a stock poleaxe (90) with a stock scimitar (100), both in the best conditions (i.e. turning into your swings) and you'll get funny results.

Polearm and 2h KD weapons don't tend to kill in one hit either.
They would be more likely to KD on a single hit basis. (If KD is largely raw dmg based, which iirc it is)

If you consider a target with full HP it's true, but the damage difference between 1h and the others is sufficient to increase the chances of a knockdown happening at least once during a duel with 1h (due to the additional hits required to kill) beyond that of 2h and polearms.

I'd personally rather see knockdown completely eliminated as that would justify buffing the damage of knockdown weapons which is what they really need. When knockdown was nerfed very little was done to compensate. I assume Tydeus's reasoning was that knockdown weapons were not stronger or weaker but rather the ideal way to use them changed but after seeing the effects of the changes I don't agree with that.

Just to put things in perspective, before the knockdown changes I repeatedly did the "hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit" combo using a +3 mil. hammer, 6PS and 184 effective wpf (that's a lot of bonus damage). Against most guys running around with +3 heavy kuyak, when i was lucky I could pull that combo off three times in a row and they'd still get up afterwards. That's "hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit", plus some swings before and after. People always say "that's a lot of free hits" and it is. But it also means that without knockdown I'd need to make them miss their block (or rather, miss their spam) 7 or more times on average. In my opinion knockdown weapons are worthless right now, and in my expertise 1h knockdown weapons definitely are.

[San]

I used the steel pick so long before that I forgot about the 1h weight increases back last March. Nevermind about the weight changes, then.


I think there are two factors affecting knockdown:

- Most players haven't grown accustomed to hitting the head/legs properly enough. The % knockdown is actually higher when hitting those areas 100% of the time compared to the past
- Everyone who is good learned how to roll without fail by then. The time frame needed to roll is too lenient.

Rolling should have its window shifted from the moment you hit the ground to the moment the knockdown begins. That way, you fail the roll if you don't respond in time instead of the gracious time we currently have. It should be more difficult to perform on reaction.

[gallonigher]

^ this

The roll function, as it is now, totally defeats the purpose of knockdown; it needs to be much harder to pull off successfully.  Or at least shorten the distance on the roll so the person who knocked you down still has a decent chance to hit you.  I find it hilariously misguided how you can cover more distance by rolling across the ground than you can by running/jumping. LOLWAT?????

[Huscarlton_Banks]

I have no idea if the real average knockdown rate is higher than the past for some weapons/builds since you only needed 40 raw damage to max out the damage portion of the old knockdown formula, and you need 70 raw damage to max it out now. There's also some stuff like are there any speed bonus differences if you tilt your swings, and how many hits accidentally hit the arms/body from being too close, or the target looking down/swinging with their weapon.

It's true that the maximum knockdown rate is higher than the past though, I just dunno how well it translates into an average with AGI builds/actual gameplay, especially with weaker weapons.

According to some stuff cmpxchg8b posted on TW, hit location bonuses come after raw damage is calculated, so here it just involves hold bonus, speed bonus, weapon damage, power strike, and proficiency.

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

armor = appropriate_armor_value_for_hit_location

if hit_shield_on_back:
armor += shield_resistance + 10

soak_factor = armor * module.ini_soak_factor_for_damage_type
reduction_factor = armor * module.ini_reduction_factor_for_damage_type

if item_flags & itp_extra_penetration:
soak_factor *= module.ini_extra_penetration_soak_factor
reduction_factor *= module.ini_extra_penetration_reduction_factor

randomized_soak = (random.random() * 0.55 + 0.45) * soak_factor
randomized_damage = (random.random() * 0.1 + 0.9) * raw_damage
soaked_damage = randomized_damage - randomized_soak

if (soaked_damage < 0.0):
soaked_damage = 0.0

randomized_reduction = math.exp((random.random() * 0.55 + 0.45) * reduction_factor * 0.014)
reduced_damage = (1.0 - 1.0 / randomized_reduction) * soaked_damage

if (reduction_factor < 0.00001):
reduced_damage  = 0.0

damage_difference = round(reduced_damage + randomized_soak)
effective_damage = randomized_damage - damage_difference

if hit_bone == head:
effective_damage *= 1.2

if item_is_ranged:
effective_damage *= 1.75
elif hit_bone == calf or hit_bone == thigh:
effective_damage *= 0.9

effective_damage = clamp(effective_damage, 0.0, 500.0)

Code: (KD comparison) [Select]

Weight   Old Max %            Raw damage needed with new formula and same weight for old max %                              New Max % (70 raw damage vs head/legs)
   2          10                                           ~53.33                                                                             22.5
  2.5        12.5                                          ~56.68                                                                             22.5
   3          15                                           ~60.00                                                                             22.5
  3.5        17.5                                          ~60.24                                                                             25.99
   4          20                                           ~60.20                                                                             29.7
  4.5        22.5                                          ~60.20                                                                             33.41
   5          25                                           ~60.20                                                                             37.13
  5.5        27.5                                          ~60.20                                                                             40.84
   6          30                                           ~60.20                                                                             44.55



I'd be in favor of giving blunt weapons some more reliable niche like weapon stunning, or having more obvious differences in effectiveness vs. armor between blunt/pierce, rebalancing one to be more effective against squishy/medium armor people, and the other heavy armored people.

[Senni__Ti]

This. Speed rating has only a very small impact on the actual time to hit in combat. Compare the time between clicking and hitting of a stock poleaxe (90) with a stock scimitar (100), both in the best conditions (i.e. turning into your swings) and you'll get funny results.

I am aware of the time to intercept.
I was referring to repeated swings, not just one swing.

Besides, we both agree polearms are dodgy in time to intercept .

If you consider a target with full HP it's true, but the damage difference between 1h and the others is sufficient to increase the chances of a knockdown happening at least once during a duel with 1h (due to the additional hits required to kill) beyond that of 2h and polearms.

I'd personally rather see knockdown completely eliminated as that would justify buffing the damage of knockdown weapons which is what they really need.

Couldn't agree more.

When knockdown was nerfed very little was done to compensate. I assume Tydeus's reasoning was that knockdown weapons were not stronger or weaker but rather the ideal way to use them changed but after seeing the effects of the changes I don't agree with that.

Just to put things in perspective, before the knockdown changes I repeatedly did the "hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit" combo using a +3 mil. hammer, 6PS and 184 effective wpf (that's a lot of bonus damage). Against most guys running around with +3 heavy kuyak, when i was lucky I could pull that combo off three times in a row and they'd still get up afterwards. That's "hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit", plus some swings before and after. People always say "that's a lot of free hits" and it is. But it also means that without knockdown I'd need to make them miss their block (or rather, miss their spam) 7 or more times on average. In my opinion knockdown weapons are worthless right now, and in my expertise 1h knockdown weapons definitely are.

I disagree.

[MURDERTRON]

The roll should be slowed down and shortened, if we're really going to discuss how it needs to be changed.  It should be a slightly better option than just sitting there.  When you take a hit, you're slightly behind and you'd best be ready to block the next attack, but if you're knocked down, you fly half the map away, and the other guy wastes his swing trying to hit where you were.

How it should play out is a player knocks you down and starts to swing at where you are, you roll and you survive for another second OR good player knocks you down, holds his swing for a quarter of a second to see if you roll, you roll, he has enough time to cover the distance as long as he isn't a pure strength build and he has a chance to hit you again.

[Senni__Ti]

I'd like to see another option added, like in MBII (a jedi academy mod). Where if knocked down, you can roll or if you held crouch when hit, you get up a hell of a lot faster, but can't block.

Obviously we don't have crouch, but maybe ctrl? (walk button)

And yeah, the travel distance with rolls is too much.

[Penitent]

I like knockdown as a mechanic because it adds something unique to the mod.  It adds some depth.  It's fun.

Much more important is fixing roll.  You should move over like 1 body-width in distance, just enough to avoid the next hit...but perhaps not far enough to avoid the one after that.

[MURDERTRON]

We're thinking about implementing new dodge mechanics but we want to make sure the community is at least interested in the possibilities first. There are three possible dodge type mechanics we're thinking about. The first, would allow you to roll and then stand up from a knock down. This would keep you from being so helpless on the ground without completely taking the advantages of knockdown away from players. Picture a relatively fast 1 to 1 1/2m left/right roll from the knockdown positions. Nothing too game changing here, just another tool in the bag.

Next would be a sort of hop that moves you left, right, or back when executed. This would be a quick dodge that would only move you about 1 1/2 to 2m. Unlike a jump, the player doesn't get much higher off of the ground and we can choose whether or not to keep the animation to only locking the lower body. Unlike the others, this could allow players to block or attack during the dodge(possibly only block).

The last mechanic we're thinking about is a roll from the neutral position(standing) where all four(possibly 8) directions are possible. Total animation length is much longer than the others but distance traveled is also about 3m. Quick at the start, slow at the stand. I think of the dives in Dark Souls for a good example of this. We can change the animation, dive length, stand speed, etc, based on things like character stats and equipment.

We realize that full plate characters rolling around the server could really be an eyesore, as well as the fact that all of this could have significant positive or negative impacts on gameplay, so we're asking what the community thinks before we start developing and implementing these these(urist actually already has the core of the system done). We can choose to implement any combination of the previously mentioned systems, or none at all. So tell us what you think, maybe you've got some interesting ideas of your own?

Edit: We don't think of these as get out of jail free cards, but simply another tool that players can utilize in certain situations.

No follow up from this guy.

[Penitent]

No follow up from this guy.

Thank God. Those moves would not be good.  IMO, a short side-step/dodge to the back or sides would be cool, but I oh if it moved you 1 meter and you couldn't block or attack during it.  Like, to dodge a slow crush through weapon or something.  You can dodge, or block, but it's a choice.  Not both .

Oh god, can you imagine a 9 meter roll from a standing position?  It would make the current roll look tame!

[Tydeus]

Urist was the one who scripted rolls while I was the one doing the animations. He kind of went inactive/stuff came up before he could get around to adjusting the distance. I haven't taken the time to learn how the whole thing works so that I can lower the roll distance, as it's not just a simple linear equation or even only one function at that. I guess I'll take a look, although there's a bunch of other stuff I should probably do as well, and I'm busy/uninterested atm.

[Senni__Ti]

Urist was the one who scripted rolls while I was the one doing the animations. He kind of went inactive/stuff came up before he could get around to adjusting the distance. I haven't taken the time to learn how the whole thing works so that I can lower the roll distance, as it's not just a simple linear equation or even only one function at that. I guess I'll take a look, although there's a bunch of other stuff I should probably do as well, and I'm busy/uninterested atm.

If it's not using much WSE, I could take a look. (I haven't got round to learning WSE, but I'm well versed in WSL, so is Huscarlton_Banks if that helps )

[Kafein]

- Most players haven't grown accustomed to hitting the head/legs properly enough. The % knockdown is actually higher when hitting those areas 100% of the time compared to the past

So I finally decided to actually test that, and I'm not happy with the results. I went to EU2 and used a stock military hammer for a few maps. I wasn't able to knock down anyone (I'm not exaggerating, it never happened) while consistently holding and aiming for the head, with 6PS and 184wpf. I'll try with a bar mace on my str alt next.

[San]

You need to hit the head/legs a good 2/3 of the time to see any sort of increase when compared to before the change. I tried using a flanged mace for a while and saw a few knockdowns. It's still only 15-20% so you'll only see it so often unless you try to get the proper hits every time. The head is harder than you think to hit if an opponent's moving. For me, it's easier to swipe at their legs unless my teammates give me a good left swing or overhead to the face.

On average it's probably lower if you don't aim for it. In a few maps of battle, I only knocked down 3 times. I think 1h blunt weapons might need to be heavier.