Author Topic: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's  (Read 6696 times)

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Offline IG_Saint

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2011, 01:04:28 am »
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Also, I replied to your other post by editing it into the post above.

So did I. I think actual numbers would sort this discussion out pretty easily. Have TKs gone up since the penalty was removed? If yes, reinstate the penalty, if no, you're right and the penalty wouldn't make any difference anyway.

EDIT: A little background info on Heroin: When I started playing cRPG, I was a complete noob to warband in general. I had only owned the game for a week. When I was playing in my first couple days, a guy wasn't careful an TKed me. As I had seen most people in the game apologize when they TKed someone, this guy didn't. So I said something to the effect of, "No apology?" The guy proceeded to kill me at spawn every single time I spawned for the next 2 weeks. Once I had learned to play, and semi-competently defend myself, he had his buddy join in with him to TK me. It was so bad that I could not even play the game if these two guys were on. And any time I said anything about it on chat, they would accuse me of attacking them, to make me look like the bad guy to the public/admins. I recall spending HOURS being TKed over and over by those guys, with nothing I could do about it, until I discovered the forums. That entire situation happened under the old-school XP penalty that you're asking for.

Wow, that sucks, I'm amazed you stuck with it. But like I said the TK penalty isn't meant to discourage assholes (because it won't, only admins will), it's meant to encourage players to watch their swings.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 01:15:03 am by IG_Saint »

Offline Heroin

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2011, 01:13:34 am »
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So did I. I think actual numbers would sort this discussion out pretty easily. Have TKs gone up since the penalty was removed? If yes, reinstate the penalty, if no, you're right and the penalty wouldn't make any difference anyway.

I agree. However, if the % is less than 10% more, I'd consider that NOT having gone up, since the forced swing/shoot at the end of the round probably accounts for at least 10% of the TKs that happen.

Oh, replied in previous post again, lol.

If a dev doesn't respond to this thread, I might be able to get some numbers, I'll see what I can do.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 01:15:12 am by Heroin »
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Offline Heroin

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2011, 01:18:19 am »
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But like I said the TK penalty isn't meant to discourage assholes (because it won't, only admins will), it's meant to encourage players to watch their swings.

I agree with you on this point, as well. Others, however, don't seem to. And that story was for them just as much as you.

EDIT: Sorry for double-post. Meant to edit into last one. Oh well.
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Offline Felagunda

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2011, 06:14:19 am »
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No, it won't. And no, it won't, unless the punishment is scary. Also, some of the most epic moments in this game occur when people take risk.

I totally agree with you.  I have always loved games with risk versus reward.  In the case you mentioned though you xbow a ninja in the head save a teammate okay that is a reward, saving a teammate, the glory of a risky shot well put that lead to a kill.  I understand that part but where was the risk.  What having to say your sry if you accidently shoot the teammate in head.  Not that you even need to say sry as long as it doesn't look like it's on purpose.  I don't understand your version of risk I guess.

Also,  (and sry I can't paste the quote i'm not to good at forum crap and don't know how to get quotes from different post) to make a general statement that the no one will watch their FRIENDLY FIRE (I say FF b/c when I made this thread I really wanted to punish FF and not just TK'S) because the penalty isn't severe enough  is deffinatly untrue.  I am certainly a SOMEONE and I used to watch my swings much more b/c I didn't want to tk and lose out on gold and xp.  So to say that it never held anyone back before and won't in the future is wrong.  It made people think more about firing into melee or throwing and it would again if reimplimented.

BTW just today I acidently killed a teammates horse.  I said sry he turned on me and hit me three times then stopped.  I didn't go crying to an admin I would have liked to.  If that guy had paid 1-2.5G per hp he took I woulda felt justified at least.  Now I know it's not a system to prevent these things that's what admins are for but maybe these things would happen less.

Also you see alot less of well you hit me for no reason without a sry so I hit you back (usually more often) type of fights start.

Offline Heroin

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2011, 07:47:00 pm »
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In the case you mentioned though you xbow a ninja in the head save a teammate okay that is a reward, saving a teammate, the glory of a risky shot well put that lead to a kill.  I understand that part but where was the risk.  What having to say your sry if you accidently shoot the teammate in head. I don't understand your version of risk I guess.

The risk is in accidentally shooting your teammate, and therefore losing that asset to your team's victory. No more risk is required.

I am certainly a SOMEONE and I used to watch my swings much more b/c I didn't want to tk and lose out on gold and xp.  So to say that it never held anyone back before and won't in the future is wrong.  It made people think more about firing into melee or throwing and it would again if reimplimented.

You are making strong assumptions, which would only be backed up by facts if the # of TKs were higher now than they were pre-patch. Again, I urge someone with access to statistics, if available, to post the numbers here so that we can properly evaluate the impact that no penalty has had.

Personally speaking, I get TKed less these days(because of my higher strength build), and TK others at about the same rate as I did with a penalty. Pre-patch, I wasn't worried about TKing people. I lost 1k xp and 50 gold? lol, it didn't happen enough to be scary. I still fired/threw into melee, and occasionally would TK people. But the fact of the matter is this:

#1) If I have a 50-50 shot of hitting a teammate OR an enemy, where the enemy will take 100% damage, and the friend will only take 50% damage, I'm taking the shot. It makes mathematical sense to do so, if you're playing the odds.

#2) If I consistently throw/shoot into melee, and kill an ENEMY 2 out of 3 times, and kill a friend the other 1 time, it still makes mathematical sense to take the shot.

#3) Firing into melee is worth it, especially if they are high priority enemies(cyranule, balbaroth, dan, singinintherain, etc), where their death could directly lead to my team's victory.

#4) I am less likely to fire into melee if the ally involved in the melee is someone who is dependable, and of high tactical importance to my team(cyranule, balbaroth, dan, singinintherain, etc).

Oftentimes, if I see such a high priority target engaged in melee with a peasant, or someone of little tactical value to our team, I will shoot/throw into melee with only a 50-50 chance of hitting the enemy/ally, simply because the value of killing the high priority enemy far outweighs the risk of TKing the peasant on my team.

Taking the above into consideration, if you were to add a 1k xp penalty, and a 50gp penalty to TKs, nothing above would change. I'd still follow the exact same formula for determining whether or not to fire into melee, and I'd still hit allies with the same amount of frequency.

Why? Because the formula above is all about WINNING, which is the driving force in the metagame right now. Adding a trivial penalty will not change that. So I get all the same odds as I got before, except I MAY be penalized by 1k xp and 50 gold if my gamble doesn't pay off? Who cares? If my gamble doesn't pay off, I'm likely losing MUCH more than that by losing my modifier, and if my gamble DOES pay off, I'm gaining FAR more than that by gaining a modifier.

So again, it all comes back to my main point, which has remained the same from the start: A small penalty(1-2k xp, 50-100 gold) will not have a serious effect on the number of TKs that happen. A large penalty probably will, however, if you guys are looking for support rather than opposition, a large penalty isn't the way to go. Nothing will bring out opposition to TK penalties faster than a large, scary penalty for accidents.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2011, 08:02:36 pm »
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#1) If I have a 50-50 shot of hitting a teammate OR an enemy, where the enemy will take 100% damage, and the friend will only take 50% damage, I'm taking the shot. It makes mathematical sense to do so, if you're playing the odds.

You're not taking into account the relative skills of those two players, and how valuable they are to their respective teams.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2011, 10:15:40 pm »
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You're not taking into account the relative skills of those two players, and how valuable they are to their respective teams.

You are not taking into account the rest of his post, like the fourth point...

He does address that...
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Offline Kharn

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2011, 10:46:17 pm »
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If you are TK'ed you shouldn't get a death on record.

Done. That's all that's needed.
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Offline Heroin

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2011, 02:40:38 am »
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You are not taking into account the rest of his post, like the fourth point...

He does address that...

I like you dude. You read.
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Offline Z_E_N

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2011, 06:45:48 am »
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I agree completely with heroin.

In my own experience, I rarely get tked if i'm playing seriously.

Ally swinging wildly? I let him fight until he dies.
Archers shooting at a solo enemy turning his shield into a pincushion?  I stay back and don't engage the guy.
Cav just got knocked off his horse into a mass of allies?  I don't try to dogpile.

Yes there will be the annoying situation where I have the upper hand in a 1v1 and I get shot by an ally, but its pretty rare.

Good players can not only avoid tking, they avoid situations that would get them tked.  I was on last night when someone said bks_rhade rarely gets tked, and as odd that that sounds it's true.  He doesn't get tked because he is experienced and avoids situations that get him tked.

Offline Rumblood

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2011, 10:26:26 am »
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Best TK penalty would be getting no gold/xp ticks for the remainder of the round after you TK'ed. This way tking at spawn or in the early clusterfuck is discouraged while accidental tk's in the end (at the equipment screen for example) don't get penalized.

+1 for goodness
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Offline La Makina

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2011, 12:04:25 pm »
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I like this idea too.

A gold penalty should not be based on the upkeep costs of others because this is unfair and could be abused; killing (full plate) friends at the end of the round to save them from their expenses. It could be a fixed amount (200 gold) or be based on the level of the teammate. Teamkilling peasants would then be quite cheap like I believe it would have been in the Middle Age.

Besides a penalty system, if the developpers could fix the etheral body of dead ennemies. You know when a hit go through the body of a dead ennemy and hit a teammate. That is so unfair.

Penalties for TK would be very wise to saveguard peace (!) on the servers: it would incite players to ragepoll less since they don't have to make justice themselves for (intentional or accidental) TK.

Offline Heroin

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Re: Reintroduce PENALITIES for TK's
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2011, 04:00:48 pm »
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Teamkilling peasants would then be quite cheap like I believe it would have been in the Middle Age.

If you want to use the "like it was" argument, then I must retort as follows: In the middle ages, if no one saw you do it, and you didn't admit it, it didn't happen. To hell with text on the screen that says otherwise. Furthermore, I suspect that TKs happened in the heat of battle, on accident, and the perpetrator suffered little penalty for it aside from possibly a hit to his reputation(people not wanting to fight too close to this berserker). Beyond that, while it probably wasn't common, I'm sure intentional TKing happened as well, and again, if no witnesses, it didn't happen. Nothing like a war to cover up murder.
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