Dear devs...

[CpTKiL]

Mod dead.

[Jarlek]

Yesterday me and 4 guys of meciless had somewhat called teamwork.
We decided to keep against an wall with our backs with some shieldwall and let an xbow and archer shoot.
And we went on a hill on the cav map, Thing is we LOST almost every fight.
BECAUSE we had 5 merciless working together 11 randomers, the 11 randomers just went to charge in to plain ground ground and got cav fucked.
Then we needed to kill 18 enemys by the 5 of us because teammates dont listen to tactics and just charge and die.

You forgot to mention that almost all of the enemy was a single clan (legio), with 6 horsemen and some ranged. We were only 4 merciless and the rest randomers. You also forgot to mention that when they finally started to stick with us, we actually won a lot of times. It was only when they charged lemming-like into the open that we lost.

@OP

I'm not gonna respond deeply to the APP/BPP (which I like the general idea of) and the 3 suggestions, because the REALLY BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION is the "Devs: How do you want cRPG to be like?" is something I really want to get the answer to. I've really close to ask this question myself a couple of times, but always doubted I would get an answer.


Just for the record:
Suggestion 1: This would be nice, especially in a short feature thing like you mentioned. We (the community) could also make a video with the "basics of M&B: Warbamd", "basics of cRPG" and a "the advanced parts of cRPG" thing that could be linked from the website, forum and wiki.

Suggestion 2: Dunno how it would work and if it even could work. Something would be nice, but I'm just pessimistic about it's chance of actually working (technically).

Suggestion 3: Only as a new gamemode. Not as a replacement. But I wouldn't mind having battle reworked a bit.

[Tristan]

A deathmatch like server other than siege might improve the conditions on the battleserver sorting off all the rushers and drunks and leaving those who wants tactics.

I am not one for deciding how people should have fun, and just because I don't mind 2 min of maneuvre before any battles doesn't mean everybody does.

George is correct that a clan consisting of some 10-15% of a server can't go off doing tactics alone, especially if they choose to camp.
What they can do is adjust their tactics according to the mob such as fast flanking, protecting the mob etc. etc. We often have good results with that in the Guards and I see that other clans too have (even) great(er) success with that.

@op: I only skimmed your post for it is very incoherent. You ask a valid question, what is the idea with this game, but then continues to answer a lot of other questions yourself, only vaguely related to the first. Your post would have had a far greater impact if you had left that sentence alone.
I can only agree with you that for any sort of project answering such a question is very valuable. There are however important things to consider:
It's a voluntary project done in free time only by personal motivation. Not everyone feels motivated following a strict vision and schedule.
Some feel motivated by improving bits here and there, getting new ideas trying them out. This does result in things that could be done to make the game more polished, but this is a mod.
(Important disclaimer: I am not stating how any particular dev. feels or acts. I am under no circumstances privy to such information. I am merely putting up a possible scenario).
What I do know for a fact is that all suggestions are being read, then rediculed, but then absorbed into the clay that shapes cRPG. While lacking initial responses to ideas might be annoying, sometimes devs have a counter idea or an opposite direction planned, but just sometimes they are being worked on and adapted.

[Toffi]

I read everything said in your first post joker, and I think it's easy to achieve the first point, helping new players to understand crpg.

About the other points.. they sound good, but we need to think about the way to improve that.

[Berplars]

I would really like the idea of an often suggested objective based gamemode, and by that i don´t mean Capture the Flag but something like the rush or Conquest mode of the Battlefield series.

Since Battle is all about killing and most likely grouping up as much as possible, thus not favouring any special tactis, except for group flanking or the infamous boring shieldwall, i would like to see some Gameplay that encourages small groups to do something, like cap a point.

I don´t think that the limited goal of Battle can be improved alot by a commander system, since there is always alot of random guys who just want the quick action of immediate engage and not running around the map to find a flanking spot or standing in a shieldwall for 4 minutes.

Due to that i´m pretty sure devs know this and would like to do a more objective based gameplay as mentioned in several other topics, but i think the amount of work that this kind of gamemode would need is just to high to realize it in a rather short time.

And no matter how many good features you add, it is all about the players and if they aren´t willing to change their playstyle no good feature gives you the statisfaction you want.

[Dezilagel]

A good battlefield is a dynamic battlefield imo.

This idea that forcing people to do "teamwork" (blobbing up i.e boring shit that doesn't require any skill to do) will make the game more fun just sounds like pure bollocks to me.

I mean which people do you want to reward; those who hang back with the group and just dart in to backstab or to hit without exposing themselves (on EU1 most of the players in the standard blob), or those who actually take initiative to push forward and create some momentum. Those who go and flank, who take the risks and do some crazy stuff or those who sit back and camp with the big group?

Teamwork is NOT hanging about in a big blob, teamwork is about coordination and the more a dynamic battlefield you have (i.e initiative and non-blobbiness is encouraged) the better teamwork you will have. Sure you can coordinate well within a big blob or while camping but it's not even a fraction as interesting as having the potential of dynamic large-scale teamwork/coordination.

And you must not forget the individual as well. Valuing individual skill is not the polar opposite of valuing teamwork as some here seem to think. For example: I was in a strat battle quite a while ago where we were attacking a village. We had a problem with an extremely tall roof full of archers that were inflicting heavy casualties on us and as such the commander moved the army out of the way. But he wanted to deal with the archers so what he did was that he ordered me and a couple of other able players to kill the infantry guarding the ladder and cut the ladder down, preventing their archers from moving or forcing them to suicide. The plan was swiftly executed and went almost perfectly. We died from the hail of arrows while retreating but we managed with our task, granting us a big advantage.

This was imho a great example of teamwork on a level that is usually not discussed. The commander knew he had these resources, called the attack and the players used their abilities to great effect, doing the whole army a big favour.

And you really need to value the individual player on EU1 since it lacks several features necessary for proper dynamic teamwork:

The first one being communication. You have 50 players on one team, from different countries and no voice comms. It's just not going to work for any interesting teamwork.

The second one is interest in teamwork. Most people who go to EU1 do not do so because they want to play really seriously, they do so because they just want to relax and have a good time. And that's really what I think the server should be for. You shouldn't really expect anything from teammates here. I just assume that every single friendly I meet is going to be about as useful to me as a sack of potatoes, and I'm fine with that. If you're constantly getting your ass handed to you on EU1 you shouldn't blame it on your teammates. (Even though sometimes they do of course get you killed)

If you reduce the impact of peronal skill then all you're going to see is blobbing and camping. Simple, trivial mass "tactics" which are the only ones you can really perform with 50 randomers.

We have excellent tools in C-rpg that promote teamwork, namely clans and Strategus. There's a reason the first thing I often tell new players is to join a clan, it adds so much to the game. If you're not willing to use these resources then that is imo your problem.

[Joker86]

To revive this thread... 


Dezilagel, I agree on most of what you said, about teamwork and skill not being polar opposites and having the problem of 50 random players on the server who are (mainly) not interested in teamwork and all the other stuff.

But there are two points I disagree:

- that this can't be changed, or at least that you shouldn't even try to change this

and

- that clans and strategus are "tools" for teamplay and that it is my own problem if I don't use them.

I already wrote about point one several times on other places in this forum, so I will keep it (rather) short.

- playing relaxedly doesn't mean you can't follow tactics. If you just want to have some random fights, would you mind so much to have them at the barn where you commander sends you, instead of next to the tower, where you wanted to run to initially? And even if you would mind, noone forces you to stay in the command system. Just press the right key and leave it.

- offering a reward for following tactics will hopefully create some interest in teamwork, although the motivation is the completely wrong one. My hope is that it develops as some kind of "bait" for the uninterested, to test if teamplay makes their gameplay worse, like they imagine it, or perhaps improves it, contrary to their expectations. And after some time they should be "used" to teamwork, and should have developed some good habits like always checking what the current plan of the team is and so on, and if we are really lucky, then they will even realize the benefits using teamwork brings to their game. In any case I strongly support removing the small rewards for following orders after some time. It's retarded, but I think in the current state of the game it's a necessity.

- with a community that uses tactics by default and with a good command system (in combination with a good commander) there is no reason why the commander can't send out the three or four best melee fighters to take out an archer nest while the rest of the team waits in cover. And again, it's not like you can't relax while doing so. Too lazy to block against the archer? Well, just try to outspam him, it's not like your clan loses a city if you fail. Bored to wait? Due to your understanding of teamplay and the changes on your gameplay you know the alternative would be to charge the archers, die, and wait even longer in spectator screen.

And to the suggestion of joining a clan or playing strat:

- I can't tell when I will be on, so no clan would accept me if they can't count on me when a fight is on the schedule.
- I hate using teamspeak.
- I want to use tactics all the time, whenever I play. I don't know any clan that always has members on EU1.
- And even if there was a clan, it's not like it could constantly represent at least 70% of my team to make using tactics fairly efficient.

[Kafein]

It is possibly heirloom might be huge problem when it's comes to balance. Why? Think about 3+ vs vanilla weapons (In other words, no heirloom) for example, both character has same exact skills say like 18/18 and their combat skills are same. They are both good blocking and counter-attack ect..... However, The one with heirloom has the upper hands and most likely will win the duel. I think Heirloom need a little nerf. Say removing heirloom speed bonus(+1 speed) will make huge difference and will most likely be balance with every other vanilla weapons. Just one advantage that heirloom has which is damages bonus and that's all they need.

Now that's just weapons balance. Let's talk about teamwork.

In order for people to do their teamwork. There must be something that encourage them to do some teamwork. Remember good old CRPG classic? The exp system really encourages players to do teamwork. But now we have this new exp system which encourages everyone including myself to go off and rambo. We could have one commander per team but who would listen? Majority of players are already a veteran which means they are pro and has very good blocking skills or Some just think they're good and think they are good as Aragorn. Only time people actually listens is when their team is losing or their opponents is unbeatable. Even when they listen their will be few people goes off and rambo. That happens all the time.

My suggestion to Developers is
1. Bring back old CRPG Exp system with some improvement.
or
2. Make a player as commander which I have huge doubt this will work.
or
3. Give bonus for being around the commander which will encourage players to do some teamwork such as giving small damage boost and HP boost.
or
4. Officially make a rule that anyone goes off RAMBO will be slay/kicked and must be within group of players

I think I found a girl on the internet.

My manly brains can't handle that amount of color.

[Mosquito]

There seem to have been a few of these posts recently where everyone generally agrees that more teamwork would be nice, I would say that the mob value results imo.

There aren't natural leaders for the clanless to follow so we follow the blob and hope:)

Joker i would ask do you try to lead your team sometimes? (i do agree that game isn't optimised with best tools to allow anyone to do so) as ppl stepping  forward is what it will take to promote some form of commander system and is from my observation something that barring a few well known exceptions doesn't happen nearly often enough.

Be brave, have a go, ppl might just  follow your commands.......if you win:)

[Joker86]

Joker i would ask do you try to lead your team sometimes?

I do. And I usually try to...

... stay kind and friendly
... formulate it as suggestion, not as order
... keep it simple
... tell the advantages my suggestion would bring ("from there our archers can shoot their backs")

It only sometimes works, if we get steamrolled really badly, people become willing to use their brain. Otherwise: wasted effort to type in chat. No one listens anyway.

[TheNeX]

Wanna improve the battle experience ?

Three steps.

1) Remove kill count (and valor).

Too many people care about it, and they shouldnt. Whats the point of being 40-5 when you are x1forever?
You should care that your team is the last standing.
Instead you see 4 people ganking one hoping to get a kill, ignoring the fact that their mates are currently outnumbered, so they can get valor.

2) Improve Balance.

Make people DECLARE what their job is, based on the skill they have, so you cant cheat. Then you have the system sorting lancers, infantry, archers and so on EQUALLY.

Next, you sort by gen. A gen 15 will have better items and probably better skill than a gen 2. So you sort the gens equally.

Add a minimum equipment. Meaning you have to spend at least xxxxx gold of items.

Punish the people who go spect, then join the winning faction.

REMOVE banner balance. Yep, very nice to play 1h with byzantium or such, means im gonna be 1x for 1h and there is nothing i can do about it, except go another server, and find grey, hre, pwning the siege -.-

If clans want to play together, they should face the right odds, against others clans, not a perma x5 vs unorganized mob.

3) Change maps

Some maps are unbelievably unbalanced, some are just unfit for battle.

The maps needs to have "zones" to capture, places of strategical impact which the team should try and capture, and those needs to be AT EQUAL DISTANCE from the spawn.

[Zerran]

I do. And I usually try to...

... stay kind and friendly
... formulate it as suggestion, not as order
... keep it simple
... tell the advantages my suggestion would bring ("from there our archers can shoot their backs")

It only sometimes works, if we get steamrolled really badly, people become willing to use their brain. Otherwise: wasted effort to type in chat. No one listens anyway.

Unfortunately this is exactly the case. Only one time can I remember seeing an entire team of pubbies work together, and that was after we got destroyed so badly that I think our team was averaging about 2-3 kills per round out of 70 or so people on. We won... and so they decided to just rush ahead again the next round, and so once again we got destroyed.

There have been suggestions to add some sort of buff for teamwork, but teamwork by its very nature essentially works like a buff. Teamwork wins matches. Random charging only works against random charging.

[Dezilagel]

- I can't tell when I will be on, so no clan would accept me if they can't count on me when a fight is on the schedule.

Yes. Every single clan requires completely serious reliable members who NEVER miss a battle and is constantly on standby for *service*, because winning this game is so important.

Get a grip, most clans play this for fun and if you'd ever come to TS you'd see how things really are.

- I hate using teamspeak.

But... why? You enjoy organized gameplay but shun probably the greatest tool there is for it.

- I want to use tactics all the time, whenever I play. I don't know any clan that always has members on EU1.

No... And that is because no one wants to play seriously 24/7.

- And even if there was a clan, it's not like it could constantly represent at least 70% of my team to make using tactics fairly efficient.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA.... MMMPHH... EHEHE... Eehhh... Aaaahhh... Ummm...

Sorry.

A good team of 5 players can easily roll an entire server.

...

I'm sorry, but to me this just sounds like you shooting yourself in the foot and then asking everyone else to slow down.

[Thomek]

Presumption 1. Everyone likes to win and will go far to achieve it, but never more than necessary (!)

Presumption 2. Biggest hurdle against teamwork is inconsistent teams.

Add PIN based teambalance NOW!

A PIN should trump banner balance, and last through a player session (kept between maps)

Would cause those that want to teamplay to easily find each other and develop teamwork through a whole evening. Would allow those that want to lead, and those that want to be lead(?) to work together. Would force the other team to straighten themselves up and organize or get raped the whole evening.

[Turboflex]

And no, I don't want to join a clan.

So you want better organization and teamplay in CRPG, but you refuse to join an organization that's actually driving for this? You can't have your cake and eat it too, you want to be a loner, but have advanced team tactics...uh-huh...

You might notice the larger and better organized clans running formations, and using advanced tactical maneuvers on public servers. These clans have commanders, and voice comm setups that are superior to ingame hotkey commands. They already have a reward too: winning more.