Author Topic: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion  (Read 11460 times)

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Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2014, 07:53:06 pm »
+1
Never thought id upvote a xunt post.

You'll regret that

Honestly don't want to see fatties moving around like ninjas

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2014, 09:06:45 pm »
0
If this suggestion was inspired by rich Darksouls PvP combat, clearly M:BG wont be a complete game without cartwheeling ninja-flipping Havels. Cant wait to see all the pole and 2hand heroes leaping back and swinging endlessly vs shielders or 1handers. It's just throwing an arcade element ontop of the existing combat mechanic, in theory dodging makes sense irl ofc, but are we there yet in terms of mechanics to make it look actually good or realistic or balanced in a game? I've yet to see a dodge mechanic that didnt look jarring and shit.

On the plus side it will be good to know what direction M:BG will take before buying it.

Throwing ideas out there is not a bad thing, sure it may be hard to make but why shouldnt they try? Inspired doesnt mean i want to port over the same dodge mechanics, too much for a meathead strwhore to understand im sure. Warband always was pretty arcadey, and thats what made it great. They could add cartwheel flipping for all i care, as long as it fits the game and is a balanced and good addition to the game.

I dont give 2 shits about realism at all, im playing crpg after all. But i realise the game is probably going to be more realistic than crpg atleast, and so i adapt my suggestions to what would fit within that. A dodge is not impossible to make.

Tbh they should just remove agility as a whole, lets make everyone move at walking speed. One giant blob fight in the middle, no actualy skill involved just a massive beatdown, im sure this would be great.
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Offline jtobiasm

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Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2014, 09:19:43 pm »
+1
One giant blob fight in the middle, no actualy skill involved just a massive beatdown, im sure this would be great.

Having everyone at the same speed would probs make it even more skill based and competitive but that  ruins the rpg side of it and the fun of custom characters.

Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2014, 10:42:09 pm »
+1
Imagine that, a melee fighting game without any sort of dodge mechanic, such a game would surely be totally shit and skilless i'm sure you'd never play it. On an unrelated note what mod for what game are we on the forums regarding?

Yes, my suggestion of not implementing a crappy and unnecessary dodge mechanic is exactly the same thing as making everyone move at walking speed. Congrats on your powers of deduction. Ok, i dont trust that the sarcasm is coming through. Tell me, when you play crpg do you join a server and think 'SHIT! No dodge mechanic, guess i'd better toggle the 'walk' button and walk towards the enemy in a big blob cos it's the only way to play, such a skilless game, if only there was a way to fight other than walking...'.

In your perfect imagination of this feature, it sounds a lot like you can easily imagine yourself having this amazing dodge power to run rings around and backstab all the hollows, and not that you're picturing a server full of 100 people dodging and spazzing about. You came dangerously close to to your usual ''pffff, why dont you just kill variety because you're against X feature'' argument, the one where me being against a particular mechanic means i hate 'variety', i reiterate the fact that if YOU get dodge so does everyone else, this isnt anything to do with agility or any particular builds (unless your next suggestion after 'dodge' is 'only agi-characters should get dodge'). When you're talking theoretically about how shit it would be to not have this feature, you also seem to be forgetting that you really enjoy Warband and Crpg which dont have this feature.

Afaik there is a dodge roll in crpg, last time i checked that is.. im not sure maybe its gone, i havent played the game in a day so..

Funny how you react so much on me pulling the over exaggurated card of removing agility, when you were the one to start it with implying that i want cartwheel flipping havels.

The variety thing, wtf where did you get this shit from all of a sudden, adding a feature surely isnt killing variety is it now?

Also why are you so upset? We're discussing a new mechanic that could potentially be a great addition to the new game, and all ive heard from you except for all the childish overexagurated (allthough funny, not really adding much) arguments was that it would probably be hard to make and would maybe look stupid because no other game has done it well as of yet.

I do enjoy crpg which doesnt really have anything that compares to what im wanting for the new game, but the new game is also a new game, i dont want it to be exactly like crpg, i want it to be different. Movement in crpg is definitely the biggest part that needs changing to the new game and so im adding my opinions on how it could be enhanced.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussino
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2014, 11:44:41 pm »
0
Devils advocate, since devs are interested to hear our thoughts on the subject and you want the mechanic, i want to demonstrate that not all of us want this to be a mechanic. That's my main motivation. Outside of that, since this is theoretical discussion over a game that hasnt been released yet i dont have any greater stake, for you it started as a feature you'd be interested in seeing as an addition (though more recently in this thread you seem to have convinced yourself that any game without it will suck). For me, a feature like this is a dealbreaker, for me it misses the spirit and 'feel' of the combat system in warband and crpg that inspired M:BG and everything i've heard about it so far. As i said, i have no greater stake other than giving the feedback that at least for me i would hate this to be a feature, it will be the main thing i'll check when the game is released before i buy - if i wanted to play chivalry i'd play chivalry.

I react to your overreaction about removing agility because it's the exact same overreaction you always use and tbh it's getting boring. If we propose an increase in armour difficulty to scale with weapon difficulty it's 'pfffffffffff, you might as well just remove agility and kill variety', i'm not Xant enough to go through the history of every time you've made that ludicrous exaggeration, but it seems your standard response to anyone who has an opinion you dont like - even in topics like this where it has *nothing* to do with agility or variety.

In a nutshell this expresses why we'll never see eye-to-eye on this matter. I simply wouldnt buy a game claiming to be a medieval combat/battlefield experience if it had cartwheel flipping in it, it could even be the most beautifully animated, balanced and well implemented feature in gaming history and maybe i'd be missing out on that - but i wouldnt ever know or care because i'd have never got the game or played it. It wouldnt fit the aesthetic i'm looking for in a medieval battleground, particularly not in something that took inspiration from M&B combat and sought to improve upon it.

It's not an exaggeration to say that this is a concept from another genre of game that would drastically change the emphasis on other mechanics, such as blocking. Havel flipping was an exaggeration in response to Xant's bullshit, it's a game we like to play with each other, though me and Xant bromance aside it did underlay my personal opinion that DarkSouls PvP isnt exactly the best rolemodel for polished and well executed competitive play.

So far everything else i've heard from M:BG has been encouraging me that we're on a similar wavelength in terms of what we're looking for, i'd prefer devs to not have spent most of their time in working on an in-depth combat system to suddenly through something in at the last minute that even if it manages to not look tacky, completely devalues blocking and makes the game a dodge'n'spam gankfest. In a dodge'n'spam gankfest there is no skill, but at the very least it'd be very accessible to newbies who only have to learn 2 buttons.

I see.

As i see it, the directional combat is what makes warband so glorious, movement is passable and not bad, but also pretty boring basic. Im just for changing it up, to me it would in theory footwork would still be basically the same, but slower backpeddaling, no darting backwards then forwards then sideways all withing a few seconds and at incredible speeds. Instead you have to manage one major step to keep control the are where you are fighting, and making it tougher for another enemy to be able to get to you because you are always positioned so that he has to walk around the other guy you are fighting. Everyone would pretty much be on equal grounds as far as how fast you move outside of that.


Sorry if my reactions are getting boring, cant say im trying to mix it up either. Allthough this has nothing to do with killing variety, previous threads have. But i can only remember the armor difficulty thread though where it actually was legit, im not sure where else i have said similar things. I think you are overreacting and still upset since last thread we argued in, and so overexaggurating what arguements i used there because they may have been similar to this one.

To be expected though, im a full out agiwhore, you are a strcrutch. Two different world collide, it aint pretty.
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Offline Jacko

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Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2014, 06:29:59 pm »
+2
Just to clear some stuff up, we are not doing Dark Souls like dodges/rolls. What we're really looking into is deepening the movement mechanics to be on pair with the actual fighting, instead of just circling around each other.  Think minor, repositioning movements.

And yes, crouching will be in. Probably stationary at first but we'll iterate on it and see where we end up.
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Offline Eugen

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Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2014, 07:55:35 pm »
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Hooray!!!    :oops:  Crouching!!!    :mrgreen:
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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2014, 08:46:45 pm »
+1
Please add Liu Kang kicks.
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2014, 09:44:57 am »
0
Just to clear some stuff up, we are not doing Dark Souls like dodges/rolls. What we're really looking into is deepening the movement mechanics to be on pair with the actual fighting, instead of just circling around each other.  Think minor, repositioning movements.

Yeah that is what I tried to get at completely. That a few steps during your swings can make you hit much harder or weaker, and have effects like concussive polestun, staggering in a direction, knees buckling. Steps during swings and blocks that are made to counter each other so you don't buckle from big heavy overhead smashes. Replace the fucked up speed bonus system in Warband combat with angles of impact and foot positioning to determine the power of swings.

Using a great maul shouldn't be auto crush throughs. It should be reflecting massive weight and force in a small smashing impact, where you don't need much space to accomplish the force of a poleaxe. Unless a shielder does crap like hold and release RMB to "shield bash" in a certain direction while stepping into, or away, from the impact while catching the maul high up in the swing before the power maxes out, they will be forced to a knee and be have to do their next block or attack from a real compromised situation. So with skill you avoid it, or can recover. But the attacker is able to follow up with an even better aimed crushing blow, at an angle that he thinks is almost impossible for you to deflect, and continue bashing the shit out of you in a "combo" that gets more and more damaging and brutal looking based on physics and "overwhelming the defenses." This basic scenario can be done with any weapon, modeled based on the physics of various weapon interactions.

So you can't just hit RMB and flick your mouse and do perfect blocks. You need to do that but more timing on tapping, holding, and possibly releasing RMB after weapons or shields collide, and move your WASD in a way to best counter theirs at the same time, and have big weapons collide and be used in aggressive parrying maneuvers just like shields, where you can step one way with WASD for footwork and your mouse for your arms in another and create advantageous collisions and releases of weapons and shields, attacking or blocking, based on redirecting force and stuff. Moving WASD aggressively during blocking to force your foe back, using WASD defensively or passively to give ground in a controlled way, or attempt to withdraw from combat. Don't use WASD at all to redirect the force of swings and you get pulverized eventually.

Like the direction you move WASD, or "step" in, while your mouse determines how your arms/weapon/shield move in, are combined to determine where you and your enemy's weapons or shields will end up after colliding and force players to stagger and compensate around to recover and properly block or attack again. Determine the pro-factor at point of impact and any followup footwork/release of two people engaging and make it easier for the one starting off good to follow up stronger, the scrub struggling to reclaim equal pro-factor calculations by adjusting for the next collision of combat objects. Someone real good at controlling their steps and swings to maximize force against some noob who can't keep up will look real flashy and dominating in gameplay, creating a dynamic but real entertaining "combo" system.

I'm thinking of this as more like 3d open map fighting/boxing gameplay, where choosing a left hook or an uppercut or whatever and how you both move, influences what kind of block or attack will be done next, where skilled ppl keep up with each other but a pro can do all sorts of pro crap to capitalize on missteps and viciously overpower someone.

Like a proper boxing/MMA game. But with hundreds of players. And instead of gloves they have hilarious tools of killing, maiming, and crushing.

Make armor and weapons interact like shells and armor in tank combat simulations too. So you use the actual tip of weapons with actual consideration into your aim. Give swords, spears, multiuse polearm heads, actual purpose instead of re-skinned lightsabers like Warband. So spearmen are actulaly using footwork to stab ppl with the end of a spear, and lolstabbing causes big glances based on observable physics instead of RNG shit.

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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2014, 11:51:18 am »
+2
Basically make it impossible to circle each other while attacking unless the attacks are being deflected in a certain direction feeding into a spin. Let directional combat control movement more so you only free move while fighting if you continously strike or deflect attacks in the opposite direction of your movement. Locking weapons locks movement or makes it more dependent on combat actions. Instead of adding general  movement options, add combat interactions that unlock situational gap closers or circle stepping in to a flank while skillfully deflecting a crappy swing.

Warband example if you left block with a shaft you get jerked to your right unless you absorb the shock. The attacker can keep his weapon locked on your block and both players movement is restricted on the physics of this hold until the blocker shoves off or attacker yields. Colliding swings work like parries  with bursts of force on weapons and movement in opposite directions. Controlling the forces let's you move relatively faster and be more aggressive. Let strength stats control force or endurance of these holds and collisions so strength is about control and agility is about avoiding being locked up and controlled.


Darth Vader is a strength build relying on controlling his enemy's movements with his attacks, Luke is a balanced build. Darth wins in Empire Strikes Back by holding Luke's weapon in place with his, while walking up to him into grapple range to drop and potentionally execute a disarmed Luke. A combat maneuver easily realized in a melee game with advanced blocking and weapon collision I'd think.


Darth is literally defeated in Return of the Jedi by trying to S key while blocking until Luke gets a dominant position, cuz Darth only reacts defensively with his S key instead of trying to counter the spam by locking swords and repositioning with his superior strength. Watch Darth hold a pathetic up block until Luke angles himself to knock away the RMB turtle noob upblock with a swing and finishes the battle as the perfect example of overwhelming defenses I keep posting about.

Footwork should be part of the combat system, not independent of it.

And I know Star Wars isn't realistic medieval combat fighting manuals lol, but its a great depiction of stylized melee combat and distinct fighting styles with easy to follow pacing and footwork.

And I guess everyone in the prequels were before the devs decided to nerf agility
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 12:32:02 pm by Smoothrich »
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Offline Eugen

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Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2014, 05:37:15 am »
0
Another proposal for movement improvement:
Running with key-command and stamina bar
Running as key-command (ctrl+w) accelerates forward movement and is the same speed for everyone only influenced by equimpment weight and terrain-factors.
Running drains the stamina bar as well as extended blocking. Athletics will reduce the drain for running and shieldskill will reduce that drain for blocking with shield.
Running towards an enemy and attacking depletes the staminabar but deals extra damage (more then raw speedbonuns). This is the Chargemove!
Normal movement can differ by athletics value. Normal movement is walking and fighting speed, with faster sidesteps, when holding the run key in melee.

Desired effects of Running with Stamina Bar:
- Charge as a group should be possible, with more damage output as advantage but with depleted stamina bar and therefore bad blocking as disadvantage.
- Moving Shieldwalls at walking speed
- No backpaddeling with runningspeed - only forward acceleration
- Melee moves in walkingspeed. Fast sidesteps and also forward and backward launches with run button. This need some kind of melee detection. No running whilest attacking, with exception of the first strike = Chargre Move.
- Kiting should be very hard, becouse running speed is same for everyone - except of weight. Speed difference through high athletics in basic walking speed should definitly always stay below the slowest runningspeed.

Thats a very basic idea. Still I hope its in the game.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 06:26:36 am by Eugen »
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Offline Eugen

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Re: Melee: Battlegrounds Movement Discussion
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2014, 06:29:06 am »
0
err
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