Effective skill maximums as they pertain to melee

[Zisa]

I tried a 9/33 3-6-11 agi wpn master build. 198 wpf.
faster because of the athletics, the wpf is kind of a waste. And yes, easily can get first 3 hits in, then die to one.

Agi builds allready get screwed from game mechanics - such as getting slowed down by a carpet? REALLY? Other stupid terrain modifiers - like wood, my ninja gets all clumsy from walking on boards? huh. People who hate getting out footworked will lobby to keep this so.

Currently my thrower build can do ok with 3 athletics, though 4 would be bettter. wpf for throwing is not showing much at 117. Funny though, getting lots of kills with... 31 polearm.

Weapon speeds are bullshit, relying on the 'numbers' in this game is a sure way to frustration. To top it off, my polearm of choice is gimped by too short a hitbox.

IronFlesh - all or nothing they say .. hmm..I don't buy it, but ultimately (2skills to one attribute) trade 3 hp from IF to 1 hp from extra str, and str for more power is a compelling argument. Even 1 IF is 2 hp, potentially the difference  between a black health bar and spectator mode.

Most skills are diminishing returns.

[Spawny]

I've been trying some weapons lately with my main: 21/15 all wpf in 1h.

I picked up a bec in some siege game. Colonel was nice enough to tripple heirloom it for me.
I was surprised by the speed I could swing it with and it wasn't difficult at all to keep up with the polearmers/2hs I fought. They weren't able to outspam me at all and I ended the round at 8:0 having used only that bec with 1 wpf.

So next retirement I'm trying a 24/12 build and I'll see what happens.

[Dreakon_The_Destroyer]

just to add my .2 cents I have noticed a small difference in maneuverability going from 7 ATH to 5 now. such as my backpedal dodge while dueling.

[Heroin]

just to add my .2 cents I have noticed a small difference in maneuverability going from 7 ATH to 5 now. such as my backpedal dodge while dueling.

Yeah, I'm fairly sure that if you want to be able to backpedal and use footwork to dodge effectively, essentially allowing you to skip your "blocking phase" and move directly to your next attack phase, the magic number is 8 athletics and very light equipment. With this setup, you will be able to outmaneuver MOST people in a duel. Short of this, I really don't see much point in going over the previously stated 4 athletics. IMO, athletics 5-7 is only a stepping stone to the truly effective levels of athletics.

[EponiCo]

Currently, armor values are so low and people hit so hard with small weapons that everything you are interested into is sheer speed. Strenght build might be succesful, but usually either the player behind is skilled or the char is crushthrough oriented.

Thing is strength build once breaks through to oneshotting (or needing one less hit). That's a huge difference, for one thing you get a free kill on everyone you attack without him reacting. Mostly small weapons that hit hard are heirloomed, but this also makes it easy to oneshot everyone with str build.

[Engine]

This is an interesting thread, thanks for starting it. I've been dissatisfied with my 15str/21 Agi build and am trying a more Str oriented build next retirement. I'd prefer to play an Agi-based character, there's so little improvement ingame that I'm thinking 21/15 or 24/12 are going to become everyone's next default build.

Why the hell does Athletics not have much effect on heavier armor? I can understand a reduced effect, but it's miniscule now.

[Matey]

So after playing many many builds (I currently have 3 "mains"@ level 30 and 13 "alts" 20+) throughout c-RPG I figured I'd get everyone's views on optimized skill point maximums.

Skill name:  Max points (followed by reasoning)

Shield:  4     
     Having played shielders for quite a while (pre-patch I was very heavy into sword and board combat for style) the effect of the shield skill seems to boil down to extra shield HP only.  Sure, supposedly it seems to have an effect on the "speed" of your shield, but I have never noticed any.  Currently my shielder has 8 shield skill, pre-patch I had 9.  In both cases I never noticed any real increase in speed from the guys who stopped at 4 to use a Huscarl.  Sure my shield rarely broke but with a huscarl or heavy board shield that doesn't happen much anyways.  Hell, in most battles if you put it away vs axemen and only use it for people without axes even heater shields last quite a while.  Guys like Cyranule only have 4 shield skill (and 12 agi) and are no more slow than my 8 points (almost double).  Conclusion:  Just get the 4 points if you're going to be a shield and then stop wasting your skill points.

Athletics:  3-4
     Currently I have 7 and 8 athletics on my mains (depending on which one) and wear light-medium armor.  I have noticed consistantly in battle AND duel servers that strength builders such as Goretooth, Cyranule, Wallace, etc are able to keep movement speed pace with my characters even though they have far less agility, less than half my athletics skill and wear twice as much weight as I do.  Sure you notice a difference if you're naked, but if you plan to wear armor at all it seems that the tangible benefit of the skill stops after 3 or 4.  I have made it a point to ask people in the duel server their athletics value and get their thoughts and the general consensus has been that other than getting from point a to point b faster if uninterrupted (yeah right, with all the ranged spam?) that athletics for the most part is worthless.  Save yourself some skill-points and stop at 3-4.

Pure build WM:  3
     This is pretty subjective however I find that if my main melee wpf is at 130 I never feel like it's too low vs anyone of any build (str or agi) in order to be able to block and counterattack properly.  With this in mind you can achieve 132 wpp in a single weapon by level 30 with only 3 WM points.  If you're a pure build, this would be the number I would shoot for and stop.  After this point you are basically spending a skill point for 10 (or less) WPF points each time, which the effective benefit from doesn't seem that great to me.



The other skills all seem to retain a use for higher point values, but these three are the ones that after playing c-RPG all this time have really shown themselves to not be worth higher skill point investments than what I've laid out above.  Coincidentally this has also been consistant with the greater value of a str-build vs an agi-build currently.

Share your thoughts and findings.   

having done 10 generations of shielder...

You can go STR shielder in which case all the max skill levels you list are just fine. you will kill players real good... and yes if you put the shield away against axes itll last longer. but... you wont be able to run around solo very effectively. soon as you run into 2 decent opponents with equal or greater run speed... you are very likely to be dead.

OR

you can go AGI shielder. in which case you want 7-9 shield, 7-9 athletics, and 7-9 weapon master. the shield skill does not JUST add hp to your shield. im not actually sure it does add hp at all. my understanding is that it increases the shields resistance value... which means it takes less damage per hit. with 8 shield skill your shield is very durable (and far far more so when you have a masterwork huscarl ). as for athletics... i usually wear the gambeson, sometimes i go a bit heavier (tunic over mail) or ligher (peasant gear). regardless of what i wear, i have a huge advantage in mobility over most opponents, especially if i am in the gambeson or lighter. ask wallace how easily he keeps up in a duel... i usually dart in an out of his reach while smacking him in the head with an axe. also, with my high athletics if i find myself facing 6 opponents... im not automatically screwed. I can backpedal to safety while engaging one or two at a time, often causing them to friendly fire a lot. and lastly... weapon master... when you go high agility, you obviously go low strength... as a result... you want as much wpf as possible to make up for as much damage as you can, as well as to get all the speed increase that you can. (according to vargas melee damage calc... with 12 str, 4ps, 172 wpf, and a 40c 1 hander you would do a minimum of 17 and a max of 36 against an enemy with 40 armour.) compared to 23-43 with 21 str, 7ps and 130wpf. not that big a diff...

anyways... overall... if you want to wear lots of armour and take a beating before you go down, and if you want people to really feel any hits you land... then STR may be for you.
if you want to run around ninja-ing people, pissing off archers, outmanuevring people, and dying instantly 90% of the time you make a mistake... go AGI.

they both have their purposes. i think agi is a better team build, and more useful for manipulating enemies and distracting... but str is nice and straightforward and its easier to rake in kills when you only need to land 1-2 hits instead of 1-4

[Formless]

I am really enjoying this thread.

+1 awesome point to Gorath for starting it (not that I think he will ever climb back to a positive score  )

[Gorath]

the shield skill does not JUST add hp to your shield. im not actually sure it does add hp at all. my understanding is that it increases the shields resistance value...

Well according to the native mechanics the shield skill reduces the damage your shield takes by 8% per point of shield skill.  So unless c-rpg changed this mechanic...
Anyways, that damage reduction is what I mean when I say it effectively adds hp to your shield.  Change the word HP to durability if that helps. 

I used to think the same as the rest of your post, which is why I always went with more of a balanced build, or an agi-focused build for my shielder if I had to have uneven stats.  Figured with how much a shield slows you down that the athletics, shield and wm skills would really help.  But, and not only with my shielder, my OP is what I've been noticing as the norm on the field and in duels with such str based guys as Gore and Cyran for the best examples.  Both are decked out in armor FAR above the weight of my own, with agi that's less than half of mine (and skill points to match) and yet I can't see any discernable speed difference in my favor when dueling them.

Not sure how you're reaching 9 points in athletics, shield and wm though.

That'd be a:
Strength: 9
Agility: 27

Converted: 2
Power Strike: 2
Shield: 9
Athletics: 9
Weapon Master: 9

build @30.

Given the low str and only 2 PS I'd dare say the only way you're going to really kill anything is if you're running around with a masterworked top tier 1h like the side katana.  And even then it seems like it's going to take you a dozen hits.

Sure it all boils down to preference and playstyle, but efficiency wise I'm just not seeing the value.

[Matey]

i usually go 12/24. 4ps 1if 8shield 8ath 8wm

my current build... well i kinda fucked it. i was planning on 9/30 but changed my mind and went for 9/27... but id already traded for 2 stats... so im sitting on

10/27
3ps 9ath 9shield 6wm

i should have done
9/27
3ps 9ath 9shield 8wm

anyways. i still 1 shot people pretty often. the thing is... you cant run around slashing guys with swords and expecting to top the team. you might be ok with a masterwork sword.. but not a regular.
i do quite well in duels and battle with this build though, which is interesting because i was mostly trying it as a joke. last gen i tried 24str 15agi and did not like it at all. it drives me insane not being able to out-manoeuvre people. sure i could rake in the kills easy enough, but i found i was getting a bit lazy since i could take more hits, and i was totally screwed whenever i ran into 2 good players with more athletics than me.
its true that in a 1v1 it takes more effort to kill good players with agi build... but i manage ok. me and cyranule are pretty evenly matched. if he brings an axe he might have an advantage, but if he doesnt have an axe, i have the advantage. of course it takes me 2-6 hits to kill him, and it takes him 1-2 to kill me... but still, we are pretty even.

[Gorath]

me and cyranule are pretty evenly matched.

I don't doubt it.  He an I are pretty even in duels as well but I'm just using him as an example for the speed differences.  Do you really notice that you're that much faster than he is?  Footwork wise and the speed of your shield blocks/counterattacks?  As an outside view when you and I fight I'd never guess your build was what you just laid out, you really don't seem that fast at all when we're fighting.  *As an aside, I assume that's the reason you're rocking the steel pick alot with that low of str and PS*