Cav builds have less health and points to spend for combat skills than infantry. They also pay an obscene amount of money each round to use the fragile instrument of their build. Cav are not OP as a class, though the plated charger may be a bit OP as an individual horse.
just make the horse LOUD AS FUCK so they can't troll around catching people unaware like stealth bombers
Stealth bombers are loud as fuck, you can hear horses from anywhere on the map, the problem is you are always hearing horses.
The problem is sound isn't really well done in this game and horses will be ontop of you before you actually hear them. Making them louder would only make you shit your pants whenever a teammate comes up behind you after spawning in.
and someone just gave me a - awesome point.
Yeah, let's nerf cav by making them less effective when dismounted.
Great idea, totally unbiased.
tldr; Cav is the best pub stomping class.(click to show/hide)
No one may dare oppose the glorious 2hander/pole infantry master race. If a filthy peasant cav kills one of the glorious master race infantry on foot we must nerf thier class into uselessness for even having the audacity to consider it before more of the peasants forget thier place.
enemy cav sound different? eh, what the ...? horse is horse.
Cavalry good on and off horses? You must be talking about dragoons, or mounted infantry, or man on horse, not real cavalry. Dragoons split their points, including the very dubious riding AND athletics builds, and thus can do decently on foot and on horseback. Unfortunately, they often become fodder to pure cav, who let's face it, often hunt horses first after picking off the low hanging fruit (afks etc). Assuming they survive the inevitable dismount due to lower ride, infantry duelists can outdance them due to having lower athletics or outlast them due to dragoons having lower armour, since horses are so expensive, especially compared to the cost effectiveness of heirloomed armour all ground pounders wear now. The sacrifice that dragoons make to be Ok on horse and on foot is that they do nothing very good, and must compensate for that with an overwhelming advantage in reflexes or Ping (mostly ping). Pure cav can be deadly cav hunters or crunchy squashers, but are not that hot off horse. Dont forget the potshot window of opportunity that happens if they get dismounted.
Yeah, poor cav, they are so useless. Last time I've seen a cav player score a kill was 2/3 months ago!
@ dehitay, trampling someone DOEs reduce speed of horse. There is a very noticeable unnatural drop in speed in crpg after hitting someone, and is the reason you cant ride through an infantry clump even if no one hits you. There is horse speed reduction in native too, but it is not as blatant as the one in crpg. The speed drop is so bad I often think it is a lag spike.
First of all, when judging how powerful cav are, lets not even bother to count kills against players who wander around alone in the open not paying attention, or standing out in the open shooting their bow or xbow. The power of cav has nothing to do with it, and they will get killed as long as cav can move and attack. Likewise, getting attacked in the back isn't something that is related to cav power, unless you are talking about improving the sound in the game, which is a fine change if it is possible. But you can't possibly expect to nerf cav to the point where you won't be attacked in the back while you fight some infantry in front of you, at least not unless you plan to make cav so useless that nobody plays as cav...
Cav speed seems to be near minimum. Remember, much of what you see is the fastest horse (courser) with max heirloom and high riding skill. At low levels with the slower horses (Sumpter, steppe), an infantry can actually block the attack then slash the horse before it completes the pass, especially if the terrain is anything but perfectly flat. The lance many times will even glance off heavily armored foes at the low max speed of the slower horses. Even successful couch attacks, if you can get enough speed to do them, will not instantly kill armored foes. If you slow down the rest of the horses to these levels, it's going to be pretty ridiculous.
Cav maneuver could have room to be reduced without utterly breaking cav, but I don't see the need. An heirloomed courser with high riding still has a high turning radius at high speeds and must slow down a lot to make 90 turns into even into rather large corridors. At low speeds, they are still making passes (going in from one direction, exiting to another) rather than bouncing in and out from mostly the same direction like high maneuver cav can sort of do at slow speeds. For the high maneuver cav, that's all they have got going for them. They are much weaker and easily taken down by arrows (often making them a liability that will get you dehorsed in the middle of enemy territory), and less deadly because of less speed bonuses (and the weak lances depend heavily on speed to be effective).
Where I agree with "nerfing" is with the cav's ability to block attacks with a shield or weapon. The blocks extend too low, blocking some attacks that are clearly aimed at the horse and not the rider (or just the rider's legs). If it is impossible to change the hitbox size for blocking on horseback, maybe it is at least possible to raise the whole thing higher into the air when on horseback?
All in all, cav aren't doing anything that is overpowered to get kills. If they are doing well in a particular round, it's due much more to the infantry's failure to defend properly. It's kinda rare to see a pikeman defending a bunch of allies. Awlpikes do help a bit, but they aren't really meant for cav defense and won't protect a large swath of allies anyway. And then when there actually is a decent effort to fight together and have someone on anti-cav duty, there's still probably going to be some allies that only focus on their next kill and don't pay attention to their positioning.
If I get dehorsed and my team is still evenly matched, I feel quite comfortable using just my slow heavy lance to defend allies from cav. If I find a long spear or similar that has such a significant length, speed, and damage advantage over any cav, then any allies near me should be pretty darn safe from cav. If you guys have watched Walt_F4 play, he defends quite a large swath of allies from cav, either discouraging their charges or killing the ones that do charge, and he still manages to aggressively contribute to the fight against infantry at the same time. When he's not actively fighting infantry or protecting a particular group of engaged allied infantry, he's probably in a good spot that anticipates the path that cav will be using. For example, you know cav are going to run along the edge of a group of your allies and take a swipe... Walt is usually waiting in the spot just beyond that (or around the corner in city maps) where the horse has to travel on the follow-through of the charge.
Stick together, protect your allies, and cav are mostly target practice.
Don't tell crap, any player who is in retire loop play about 85% of time in endgame with high enough ridding skill and ps to be unaffected. Cav speed and maneuver is way too high and need to be lowered by fair amount (43 maneuver/speed top), but lesser horses should be imo less affected (but still affected - 1/2 points decrease would be good approx).
Cav can safely engage any infantry with non-long polearm weapon, without risk if he play it right. If he made a mistake he deserve to get hit and even die.
My Italian Sword disagrees with you. Even when I played without sound, with an exceptionally limited threshold for anticipating cavalry, I was able to kill many charging horses or riders with a stab. Chalking this up to the riders "making a mistake" is disingenuous to the fragility of light cavalry and the unique flexibility of M&B's close-combat mechanics.
Made us statistics are fun. Seeing as level 31 is double of 1-30. That would mean that players in the retire loop are playing 50% of their time at full level/end game. Not 85%. So perhaps obey your own rule :rolleyes:24+/27+ (class dependent) is endgame.
And cav is always target practice, unless the archer sucks. Nothing funner than shooting down horsies as an archer. Problem is pubby archers seem to think shooting peasants is more useful to a team than shooting horsies.
24+/27+ (class dependent) is endgame.
How so? I'd say only when you've gotten full stats can it be said as endgame.
How so? I'd say only when you've gotten full stats can it be said as endgame.
Diomedes, yes you can dehorse a horse with a 1h stab, but does it happen often? I can easily chop down a horse when i overhead them or left swing, but rarely is that possible because of the incredible maneuverability of horses, allow them to abort a charge when i spot them. You probably can get kills with it because people don't expect a 1h to be able to kill a horse, but if you had a sign that said "i can stab really well" do you think you'll be able to pull off the same results? When you're a 2h or polearm, Cav are much more weary of you compared to if you were a 1h.
I only have issues with MW heavly lances 1 hit killing without actually couching, other than that cav is mostly fine.
Doesn't even need to be a MW lance.
doesn't even require a whole lot of PS either. Light lance + 3 or 4 ps + courser=1 hits.
Yup, regardless of what I am using, my 5PS 9 Riding Courser Gen 1 character can one shot anything shy of a STR build in Black armour or some other such thing, but aiming for the head and/or couching solves that rather easily. Or if I want to be a jerk, Bump/Lance, the latest NA jerk move that is out-doing bump-slashing in popularity.To hit people you got to risk a lot. If they are backstabbing you, well, than thats the same with any other melee class: you are dead.
To hit people you got to risk a lot. If they are backstabbing you, well, than thats the same with any other melee class: you are dead.
If they charge you head on, they can't couch nor can they hit you if you downblock. If they try to bumpslash/stab you, than they are close enough to get meleed.
But cavalry can backstab easier thanks to HIGH SPEED. To hit people you don't risk a lot if you can play lancer. They can couch head on. If they bumpslash/stab and have dWhat's this bullshit? Couching is one of the easiest moves to dodge, not to mention how easily it is to kill the rider while youre at it.onkey reflex they hit you before you chamber the attack.
What's this bullshit? Couching is one of the easiest moves to dodge, not to mention how easily it is to kill the rider while youre at it.
They cant bumpslash you if you attack them first, if you are a onehander, well, it's harder, but thats only normal, because onehander/2hander cav is your worst nightmare.
Couching is not that easy to dodge when fighting skilled coucher with proper build and horse, it's not to easy to kill rider either. It's matter of proper positioning and awareness too.Bumpstab wont do much damage at all.
They can't bumpslash, but they can bumpstab. As 1hander i fear bumpslash the most, even more than lance cavalry.
If u add the weight penalty to the riders equipment should greatly reduce the number of heavy cavs out there. Make the archers and HAs easier to shoot down lancers. The heavier the armor you wear, the slower the horse goes.Wait, now it's suddenly heavy cav thats the problem? Wut?
If u add the weight penalty to the riders equipment should greatly reduce the number of heavy cavs out there. Make the archers and HAs easier to shoot down lancers. The heavier the armor you wear, the slower the horse goes.
Bumpstab wont do much damage at all.
And about couching: it's easy as hell to dodge, either move away from the horse or get in the middle of it, works like a charm. Or just stab the horse/rider, even easier.
Wait, now it's suddenly heavy cav thats the problem? Wut?
Scanning now, please wait....(click to show/hide)
Hello,
in my opinion, the main problem is cav's damages.
Indeed, most of lancers can one-shot almost everybody with a simple hit (in other words, not a couched lance hit), even if they are not at their full speed (and even if you have a heavy armor). Moreover, lancers use very long weapon, so most of inf can't do anything against them. So for me cav, and in particulary lancers, are OP.
Besides, i don't know if it's the same in NA, but in EU, the number of cav increased a lot those last months. So it's not rare to see like a dozen of cav (and 75% of those cav are lancers) in the same team, which is a bit unplayable for inf who don't have any way to protect themselves.
As far as i'm concerned, the only way i found to protect myself against lancers was to become a 1h cav. In this way, i can flee ennemy lancers ><. Of course, i can one shot many poeple (with a mw military cleaver and at full speed i can), but 1h/2h cav take much more risk than lancers, because they are vulnerable against 2h sword, most of polearmes, and 1h sword (if they know how to jump slash or if they know how to use a thrust).
So in my opinion the main problem of cav balance is the fact that lancers do so much damages in compare to other class. And the high number of cav is due to this problem, because we often see lancers with 35/45 kills at the end of a row, so poeple want to do the same and become lancers.
PS: Sorry if i did grammar mistakes, i'm not english so i still have difficulty in writting english correctly ^^
PS2: And please don't say me that lancers do many kills because they are skilled, maybe 10% of them are, the rest just use a (herloomed) sarranid warhorse + (herloomed) heavy lance and one shot everything without taking any risk
PS3: Siiem, you're realy luckie if you're one shot only by lancers who have mw heavy lance xd
I can only think Magikarp is just really bad cav that he doesn't see this as they are the main ones having trouble getting more than a 2:1 k/d. We keep k/d stats on NA - if you ignore gravity -> 1st place, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th - cav lancers, all but Rohypnol use champion courser with MW heavy lance and he uses champion catatphract with mw lance. Out of a dozen cRPG classes, cav have come to completely dominate NA battle servers on EVERY map, no such thing a s a cav and non-cav map anymore. It takes 5-7 arrows to take down a champion courser nowadays and they get stopped all the time by pikeman and still ride away (i've seen them do it sometiems twice in the ssame round). They make no noise and will often kill as amnay as 8 in 8 seconds as they 1 shot every single person they hit.
Yeah, let's nerf cav by making them less effective when dismounted.
Great idea, totally unbiased.