cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: tankmen on June 23, 2011, 04:22:56 am

Title: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: tankmen on June 23, 2011, 04:22:56 am
Pure strength, by this I mean 27 strength at the least. For the most part this build is slow but only needs the enemy to make ONE mistake, and in most circumstances they get killed in one swing. Where as the pure strength user is able to make numerous amounts of mistakes in blocking and keep going.

18/18, Or any build that isn't 6-9 more than the other. For the most part these builds are average hitting, and can take a decent amount of hits, depending on there higher attribute. In other words the enemy they are fighting could make a few mistakes and still survive, and the user could survive a decent amount of hits as well, fair both ways.

Pure Agility, 27 Agility is the least one could have to be called Agility build. This build the user sacrifices the ability to "crutch". They can not use plate and if they mess up a block they die in one hit at the most. Their enemy can make numerous mistakes because the Agility user does next to no damage.

In simpler terms

Pure Strength = Easy mode
18/18 = normal mode
Pure Agility = hard mode

Just my thoughts on builds, there's a reason pure Agility builds don't top the score boards very often.

I'm open to others thoughts on this.

Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 23, 2011, 04:32:53 am
So true
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: tankmen on June 23, 2011, 04:38:34 am
i think you said that cause your agility build  :lol:
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Gorath on June 23, 2011, 04:44:49 am
So true

I'll say it then.  And I've played an "Average" build forever (18/18 or something akin to that) so I've seen the balance go back and forth rather well from agi domination, to current STR build dictatorship.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Socrates on June 23, 2011, 04:52:20 am
AGI truly use to be good in the old cRPG days.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 23, 2011, 05:00:00 am
i think you said that cause your agility build  :lol:
I have been playing mostly strength builds. The only actual agi character i have was a gimmick CanYouBlockDown. And Brunchlady this generation but i haven't played it enough to hit 31 in the past 3 months!
I duel with strength builds and they do the best by far. No downside in 1v1 combat except location of battle, which I would still have to choicefully chase an agi character, which I don't.
-->and they are even better in battle, and even BETTER in siege.

I'll say it then.  And I've played an "Average" build forever (18/18 or something akin to that) so I've seen the balance go back and forth rather well from agi domination, to current STR build dictatorship.
AGI truly use to be good in the old cRPG days.
We had generational wpf stacking back then. That was completely different. Some poeple hit 400+ WPF and had warp speed swings, but it was more generation than agi still. Also, less % of the population could manual block back then. Now 80+% of NA can manual block at the least 5 hits if they aren't just playing on autopilot and actually are conscious.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Christo on June 23, 2011, 05:15:12 am
Pure Strength = Easy mode
18/18 = normal mode
Pure Agility = hard mode

I have to agree with you.

I always used a 18/18 build, and after every patch I saw how other people got stronger, or weaker. 18/18 will always remain the "normal" mode as you stated it, because it has best of both worlds. (and I can be cav and footman at the same time, woo.)

So, +1.

There were days when agility was the king, though, and STR was mediocre, but now it's the total opposite since the WPF nerf.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Keshian on June 23, 2011, 05:15:24 am
Now 80+% of NA can manual block at the least 5 hits if they aren't just playing on autopilot and actually are conscious.

I think you overestimate the typical cRPG player... most are not conscious.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Digglez on June 23, 2011, 05:30:24 am
raising the STR requirements on weapons was a bit mistake.  they need to lower many of them back down.  I would love to see AGI based requirements on weapons or have certain ones get AGI based dmg bonuses, say thrusting weapons in particular.

frankly the game needs a 3rd stat: constitution, to even builds out.  So dumb that STR contributes to HP and resiliency
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Thomek on June 23, 2011, 05:35:41 am
Agree..

Since wpf started to get taxed/capped so aggressively we don't have the 200+ wpf agi chars anymore. My most fun char was my 10 Athletics Jarid-throwing superfast Ninja at lvl40.. Of course that wasn't fair for new players.

Nowadays, heavy STR-builds frequently one-shot me, and people in much heavier armor, with greatswords.. It feels a bit like being cheated. IMO it should be balanced so you could take at least 1 hit before you go down in most cases. I would accept it for the heaviest and most unwieldy weapons, but not for all-rounders like greatswords.

I'm also for softening the wpf penalty at higher levels a little bit, or make the curve a bit flatter. (Too much would require rebalancing of everything once again)

Anyway, I would say AGI is still more fun to play, as you get many more tactical options rather than jogging to the battle and start spamming.

* Diggles - No, having str-requirements is very important to not let agi-chars get the flambies i.ex. Long, extremely powerful weapon + much more wpf is deadly, and perhaps unbalanced. But having STR-requirements, when STR is currently the most powerful choice defeats the point. Buff agi pls!

edit - Also want to say that the weight influence on running speed needs to be leveled a bit higher. Now your athletics gets eaten up almost entirely if you have as much as 12-15 weight. I thought the idea of it was to get the tanks, not everyone not in a T-shirt.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: bilwit on June 23, 2011, 05:40:15 am
I've been dancing around balanced type builds and it really seems like the more strength you give up, the less utility you get in return. My first gen was 21/18 and it definitely served me a lot better than the 15/21 build I used after retiring. The marginal benefit of 7 WM and 7 ATH is not enough to justify 5 PS. I'm going for 18/18 now. I feel like I could fight better with 21/18 but I like the versatility of having an extra 5 skill points to dump into riding.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Socrates on June 23, 2011, 06:49:56 am
We had generational wpf stacking back then. That was completely different. Some poeple hit 400+ WPF and had warp speed swings, but it was more generation than agi still. Also, less % of the population could manual block back then. Now 80+% of NA can manual block at the least 5 hits if they aren't just playing on autopilot and actually are conscious.

Not that. Older days. There was no requirements on anything. IE holding a long bardiche with 15 STR was viable while rest AGI. Also WPN Master worked as in early stages. Got WPN Master early more points you got to spend. Also it costed less points for 1 point of proficiency in the higher levels than now. IE like 150+ is like a lot of points not sure the exact numbers, but back then it was way easy to go over 150 with the old Weapon Master point calculations.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Kenji on June 23, 2011, 06:55:57 am
I think you overestimate the typical cRPG player... most are not conscious.
Or they get battleweary too soon, and lost the will to fight on.

Often happens in my case :?.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Tor! on June 23, 2011, 07:04:30 am
Pure STR is also powerful in the way that it is extremely boring to fight sometimes  :mrgreen:. So boring that you try something stupid / crazy and end up getting oneshotted cus you already fought a whole minute in slow motion, and just want to get it all over with  :|
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 23, 2011, 07:14:04 am
I think you overestimate the typical cRPG player... most are not conscious.
I qualified it by saying if they were conscious :P
But yeah, so many players are just on autopilot grind mode... it is sad that crpg is that way. they aren't enjoying the battle, they are 'putting up with it' as they grind.
Pathetic. Should never be that way.
Instant level 30 is the best thing to have happened to this mod imo. Grinders can grind past for heirlooms and levels, ok. Sure. They can 'play' on autopilot and zone out too...
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: icejaff on June 23, 2011, 07:16:43 am
Im basicly an agiltiy build 24 agility, but my 15 strength gives me the power I need to overpower my enemies :D
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 23, 2011, 07:18:44 am
Blocking is for n00bs.

I just ran my 24/5 poleaxe character for a few hours at that or worse in stats, and I was still somehow rocking a 4 kill 2 death on most maps... and I have been awake for a little over 40 hours now. Just ignore that half of those kills were cav players, and I rest my case!

Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: tankmen on June 23, 2011, 07:38:33 am

But yeah, so many players are just on autopilot grind mode... it is sad that crpg is that way. they aren't enjoying the battle, they are 'putting up with it' as they grind.
Pathetic. Should never be that way.
Instant level 30 is the best thing to have happened to this mod imo. Grinders can grind past for heirlooms and levels, ok. Sure. They can 'play' on autopilot and zone out too...
i didn't put up with it when the exp wasn't capped at bullshit low
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Dezilagel on June 23, 2011, 08:59:15 pm
Balanced builds are ftw imo, but atm pure str is much more powerful than pure agi idd.

I think that removing the hp gain from str, buffing if, and increasing the power of ath would go a long way towards making agi more attractive.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Thucydides on June 23, 2011, 11:41:22 pm
Balanced builds are ftw imo, but atm pure str is much more powerful than pure agi idd.

I think that removing the hp gain from str, buffing if, and increasing the power of ath would go a long way towards making agi more attractive.

god no, please don't buff athletics or speed, we don't need bundle of sticks archers running away and kiting even more than now.

Agi is weak, but thats because of the backpeddling spammers and kiting archers who actually crutch on their speed like how STR users crutch armor. However, STR builds actually get hit and they stand their ground to fight, unlike agi builds who run as soon as they get into trouble. This would lead to even MORE range spam since melee would be a last resort since everyone has enough WPF and speed to run away+have a range weapon.

If you really want to buff AGI then buff WPF, but do not, under any circumstances, buff the speed of AGI characters.

hell you could even add damage bonus to agi or something, i don't care.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Gorath on June 24, 2011, 07:51:28 am
god no, please don't buff athletics or speed, we don't need bundle of sticks archers running away and kiting even more than now.


Then add a tag to bows that makes people run slower while they're in the inventory.  Some of us would LIKE to use speed and dodging combined with our blocking skills in melee instead of insane HP and massive heavy armor.  Some of us would like to wear medium armor as a melee fighter as our "heavy" armor and be noticably faster than str builders.

I do see your point however.  Fucking ranged players ruin EVERYTHING once again.   :evil:
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Dezilagel on June 24, 2011, 12:13:20 pm
god no, please don't buff athletics or speed, we don't need bundle of sticks archers running away and kiting even more than now.

Agi is weak, but thats because of the backpeddling spammers and kiting archers who actually crutch on their speed like how STR users crutch armor. However, STR builds actually get hit and they stand their ground to fight, unlike agi builds who run as soon as they get into trouble. This would lead to even MORE range spam since melee would be a last resort since everyone has enough WPF and speed to run away+have a range weapon.

If you really want to buff AGI then buff WPF, but do not, under any circumstances, buff the speed of AGI characters.

hell you could even add damage bonus to agi or something, i don't care.

Point taken (f***ing f@gchers...), but I think it could be solved.

Buffing weapon swing speed is not the way I think, since fooling someone just by having an extremely fast weapon is also a form of "crutching", and movement speed is where I would really like to see agi chars have the upper hand in combat.

Maybe decrease default damage and increase the power of PD?

I dunno, but somehow I think this needs to be adressed.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Tristan on June 24, 2011, 12:21:40 pm
It might be considered making the wpf tax somewhat less in order to make weapon master more attractive.

Or make Weapon Master skill itself add some speed bonus to swings...

Dunno...

But I went from 18/18 to 21/15 or 24/15 as shielder. And most people I know have lowered agility in favor of str.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Osiris on June 24, 2011, 01:04:48 pm
hmm most of the people topping the eu lists are afaik running 21-18 or 18-21 O.o (cav excluded) and when i went on an NA server with 60 people i only saw 2 plate guys and most were in normal armour so i must be missing something
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Goretooth on June 24, 2011, 01:52:31 pm
Balanced builds are ftw imo, but atm pure str is much more powerful than pure agi idd.

I think that removing the hp gain from str, buffing if, and increasing the power of ath would go a long way towards making agi more attractive.
a buff for me? thank you sept wouldn't that make us run faster then cav?
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: john_pullinger on June 24, 2011, 02:27:28 pm
Lexor is my agility build. He whiffles ever so much with his hammer or light spiked club. It takes about 6 hits on a thinly armoured guy for me to actually kill him, and I'm not the best melee fighter so they usually chop my arm off before that ever happens. x_x

Cobalt is my strength build. I've had a lucky spree with him a couple of times just spamming his axe and wading into the enemy, but his swings are slow as heck and he can't get a very high weapon proficiency. I created him for the sole purpose of blowing up shields in one hit, he only has 6 agility and is going for 12 power strike by level 30.

Lexor gets at most two kills on a good map and usually gets none. I've had over 9 with Cobalt before. STR builds have an easier time in melee, for certain.

-John
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: EyeBeat on June 24, 2011, 02:45:47 pm
STR builds are dominating mostly because they have the same speed as anyone with athletics while back peddling.

Also they can jump backwards and swing at the same speed as anyone with athletics.

To fix it they need to buff athletics by making them improve both of those things (backpeddling and jumping).  And nerf pure str builds from using it so effectively like they are now.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: marco1391 on June 24, 2011, 03:22:31 pm
I would add a bonus on agi like it is in native, something like +8 wpp to spend for any point in agi above 12
 
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 24, 2011, 03:26:07 pm
Backpeddling and jumping backwards should never be a viable tactic in melee combat.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Goretooth on June 24, 2011, 03:34:08 pm
No one does well doing that.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Polobow on June 24, 2011, 03:41:33 pm
No one does well doing that.

Actually, as a hoplite it is quite usefull.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: marco1391 on June 24, 2011, 04:29:00 pm
cut
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Kafein on June 24, 2011, 04:37:38 pm
The unique reason to put more points into str than before is because people are starting to get ridiculous armor heirlooms so bounces really become frequent when they should not (I consider a 1h sword with 6 PS shouldn't bounce all the time...). When only weapons were heirloomed, agi was way better.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Spawny on June 24, 2011, 04:46:52 pm
The unique reason to put more points into str than before is because people are starting to get ridiculous armor heirlooms so bounces really become frequent when they should not (I consider a 1h sword with 6 PS shouldn't bounce all the time...). When only weapons were heirloomed, agi was way better.

Should be fixed with the new soak/reduce values for armour. You deal about the same or a bit less damage against heavy armour, buy you clance less.
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Thucydides on June 24, 2011, 07:08:15 pm
No one does well doing that.

Backpeddling works against me. You should backpeddle more goretooth
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Thucydides on June 24, 2011, 07:19:23 pm
Then add a tag to bows that makes people run slower while they're in the inventory.  Some of us would LIKE to use speed and dodging combined with our blocking skills in melee instead of insane HP and massive heavy armor.  Some of us would like to wear medium armor as a melee fighter as our "heavy" armor and be noticably faster than str builders.

I do see your point however.  Fucking ranged players ruin EVERYTHING once again.   :evil:

I would love to see a speed nerf to archers even without the agi boost, but the natural counter to agi builds are range or teamwork. I wonder if a buff in AGI would lead to even more legolas archers because of the ability to 1-2 hit those speed demons, since a str build would be left in the dust because of the crazy speed. 

I find that in battle, high agi toons run away and try to isolate people into 1v1 duels. This is annoying as fuck and not really what i consider a real battle, soloing people isn't fighting like soldiers.  I worry that this would be even more prevalent with a buff to agi, especially combined with the increased number of range.

I acknowledge that atm STR is better overall compared to AGI, but being a str build means you cannot retreat, and are limited tactically compared to AGI toons. At the same time, they hit harder and take more damage, they rely more on teamwork and brute force rather than movement to gain the upper hand
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: dynamike on June 24, 2011, 08:07:48 pm
I would love to see a speed nerf to archers even without the agi boost, but the natural counter to agi builds are range or teamwork. I wonder if a buff in AGI would lead to even more legolas archers because of the ability to 1-2 hit those speed demons, since a str build would be left in the dust because of the crazy speed. 

Archers have gotten enough nerfs in my opinion and are fine right now (no, I am not one of them).

Quote
I find that in battle, high agi toons run away and try to isolate people into 1v1 duels. This is annoying as fuck and not really what i consider a real battle, soloing people isn't fighting like soldiers.  I worry that this would be even more prevalent with a buff to agi, especially combined with the increased number of range.

I acknowledge that atm STR is better overall compared to AGI, but being a str build means you cannot retreat, and are limited tactically compared to AGI toons. At the same time, they hit harder and take more damage, they rely more on teamwork and brute force rather than movement to gain the upper hand

Sorry, but this is just plain false. Strength builds hit way harder than agility builds atm and can also take much more damage due to higher IF and the ability to wear better armor. Or did I misunderstand you there?
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Siiem on June 24, 2011, 08:29:37 pm
Sorry, but this is just plain false. Strength builds hit way harder than agility builds atm and can also take much more damage due to higher IF and the ability to wear better armor.

True, but agi builds can take advantage of weapon length and their athletics.

A) Backpeddle with a long ass weapon.
B) Lightly armoured and sidestep and hit past your opponents blocks (ninja style)
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Thucydides on June 24, 2011, 09:18:40 pm
Archers have gotten enough nerfs in my opinion and are fine right now (no, I am not one of them).

Sorry, but this is just plain false. Strength builds hit way harder than agility builds atm and can also take much more damage due to higher IF and the ability to wear better armor. Or did I misunderstand you there?

i was talking about str builds lulz

True, but agi builds can take advantage of weapon length and their athletics.

A) Backpeddle with a long ass weapon.
B) Lightly armoured and sidestep and hit past your opponents blocks (ninja style)

this, oh god this. Especially if the enemy lags and is a str build
Title: Re: just a thought on builds, the basics
Post by: Dezilagel on June 24, 2011, 11:44:58 pm
True, but agi builds can take advantage of weapon length and their athletics.

A) Backpeddle with a long ass weapon.
B) Lightly armoured and sidestep and hit past your opponents blocks (ninja style)

I just love it when agi builds try to backpeddle, it just makes killing them so much easier since they are nullifying themselves their biggest advantage (which is movement). 1 maybe 2 blocks and then ur set.

I would love to see more ninja style fighting tbh, atm there's too many 13 ps lolstab abusers with no footwork whatsoever doing really well since ath is so unimportant (someone posted somewere that 10 ath gives like 15% movespeed boost WTF?!), while agi builds who try to use the range just glance all the time due to the low dmg.

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