cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: CrimsonPigII on June 21, 2011, 09:12:25 pm

Title: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: CrimsonPigII on June 21, 2011, 09:12:25 pm
First post - I know this info isnt not part of CRPG but F&S are getting 2 types of thrust from a pike!

Could this mean a possible mod to allow this for CRPG??

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?543322-Mount-amp-Blade-With-Fire-and-Sword-Changelog-1.141

Could it be

1) Normal underhand thrust (as normal)
2) Chest height thrust OR
3) Couch position




Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Argoth on June 21, 2011, 09:47:49 pm
:O
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Voodoox on June 21, 2011, 09:48:31 pm
:O
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: [ptx] on June 21, 2011, 09:54:22 pm
O:
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: BlackMilk on June 21, 2011, 10:01:52 pm
 :shock:
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: gazda on June 21, 2011, 10:09:28 pm
i dont see its use except for pikeman formations, who i never see in crp battles, maybe strategus
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 21, 2011, 10:18:05 pm
i dont see its use except for pikeman formations, who i never see in crp battles, maybe strategus
Doesn't hurt, besides if they could be useful to stab over fences/low walls. A bit stupid that a fence is the best defence against a pike, while 2h and 1h can easily poke over them. Would like to see the animations first, tough.

ZOMG! From the steam update list!
Quote
Damage type of Ranged Weapons is now determined by the type of ammunition rather than the weapon itself. Basic arrows for bows do cutting damage but it is possible to buy more advanced ones with piercing damage.
THIS! Makes so much sense and I would love having it!

EDIT: I am reading the changelog and I'm loving this more and more :D All the WFaS haters can go home now. As I said, just give it some time to fix stuff and change some design mistakes and it will all be good. Wasn't like Warband was perfect at release either!

Quote
You can no longer kick during tavern fights.

NOOOOOOOOOO! The only thing I don't like with this patch  :(. Although it does make sense...

Quote
horses can not be looted
Lol. I was always wondering why I never got any horses xD
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: gazda on June 21, 2011, 10:21:19 pm
i would like to see that bows influence only shoot speed, arrows would be main dammage determiners , ad1257 mod has done like that
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on June 21, 2011, 10:26:50 pm
interesting. I'm also curious about that crouching.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 21, 2011, 10:28:52 pm
interesting. I'm also curious about that crouching.
Probably gonna be like in Mount and Musket or Vikingr mod. Still very useful, especially for musketmen. Dunno how useful it will be here, but ambushes are always nice! Just, please let us be able to move, even if it makes us stand up. Being rooted in place is just stupid.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Peasant_Woman on June 21, 2011, 10:46:39 pm
Crouching in WFaS is a great feature, it means you can actually make use of low cover like fences and small walls. It seems to let you reload slightly faster too, any movement makes you stand up immediately and if used in the open you are a much smaller target.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: rustyspoon on June 21, 2011, 10:51:09 pm
The pike mechanics are just plain awesome. The overhead goes right for the face and can only be blocked by an upwards block. It would be great for replacing the terrible overhead we have now. It would also be fantastic for spears!

The couching works pretty well too. You can turn in any direction, though if you turn too fast your pike isn't set. Takes about a second to set it again. If you move in any direction you immediately stand up. Also, you can still thrust when in the couched position. So after you get the horse on it's initial charge you can keep on thrusting.

It's also cool in that you can make multiple lines of pikemen. The couched group in front and a standing group in back doing the overhead thrust. We need this in CRPG!
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Polobow on June 21, 2011, 10:56:45 pm
The spears in WFaS do not have the overhead stab?
EDIT: Oh, seen a video. It's a overhead stab, holding the pike in the middle with 2 hands, thrusting. Can't you edit it a little for a one hand overhead stab, using a shield?
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2011, 11:03:07 pm
I already see how 2 pikemen can take out anyone by just having a different thrust ready  :twisted:
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 21, 2011, 11:52:05 pm
Seriously we need this NOW! Gonna go play WFaS now and see all the new changes!
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: rustyspoon on June 21, 2011, 11:57:39 pm
I already see how 2 pikemen can take out anyone by just having a different thrust ready  :twisted:

I know! If something like this came to pass people may have to ::gasp:: use tactics!
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Dexxtaa on June 22, 2011, 12:00:46 am
3) Couch position

Give anyone with >=9 athletics the ability to couch their pike when running
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Kenji on June 22, 2011, 12:16:43 am
If these are implemented in cRPG, a dark, gloomy future awaits the cavs.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: [ptx] on June 22, 2011, 12:34:18 am
Naw, cav wouldn't be affected. Unlike 2h/pole users, that would be helpless against the long spear hordes.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Panoply on June 22, 2011, 12:40:18 am
I already see how 2 pikemen can take out anyone by just having a different thrust ready  :twisted:

Haha, would this be so drastically different from two pikemen, one with thrust and one with overhead ready, as it is now?

I'm all for this. :)
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: [ptx] on June 22, 2011, 12:47:45 am
An overhead thrust would be
a) easier to hit someone with
b) far more damaging
than the current overhead.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: bilwit on June 22, 2011, 12:48:01 am
Crouching in WFaS is a great feature, it means you can actually make use of low cover like fences and small walls. It seems to let you reload slightly faster too, any movement makes you stand up immediately and if used in the open you are a much smaller target.

We already can crouch! Hold down left attack and look down :lol:
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Penitent on June 22, 2011, 12:56:01 am
If a different thrust animations requires you to block it differently (with an up-block?) it would be VERY hard to block...hard to see the subtle differences in animation.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Digglez on June 22, 2011, 01:50:07 am
If these are implemented in cRPG, a dark, gloomy future awaits the cavs.

nah, just switch longspear & pike back to 3slots.  leave bamboo 2sloter
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: rustyspoon on June 22, 2011, 02:01:29 am
If a different thrust animations requires you to block it differently (with an up-block?) it would be VERY hard to block...hard to see the subtle differences in animation.

It's actually pretty obvious in the animation. The attacker holds their arms up really high or down low.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 22, 2011, 02:19:10 am
These new animations looks epic in formations! I couldn't get that many pikemen yet but here are some screens if you want to see. I also made some showing off the different animations. I especially like the new attacks for the musket in melee mode :D
   Some of the images are from SP with looters/brigands chargin so I didn't have that much time to set them up and find a nice position to take the screen. Sorry about that. Btw, setting pikemen in a group by themself and form a tight group and you have one EPIC pikewall! Works like hell!

(click to show/hide)

Also that peasant pikeman in the second picture wouldn't crouch. Maybe only higher tier units can do it? Awesome!

An overhead thrust would be
a) easier to hit someone with
b) far more damaging
than the current overhead.
Actually the overhead stab is really slow and has a very small hitbox. You need to hit with exactly the tip and you can't move the animation up or down at all. I tried it out on a guy standing still on a hill slightly below me. I had to go backwards quite a bit and then around him so he stood higher up than me before I could hit him. So it's not a very OP move, but good for going above fences/teammates.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 22, 2011, 02:37:01 am
I might just buy fasw....

this looks amazing. I hope crpg can get the coding to work in warband.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Banok on June 22, 2011, 02:49:59 am
the ninja in me wants to know if I can crouch to dodge arrows mid flight

gotta love in pvkii how you can dodge arrows and even sword swings by jumping over them and crouching under them. in warband you can sometimes dodge and overhead but its really lacking.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 22, 2011, 03:15:36 am
Yeah, you probably can dodge an arrow or two. Too bad the animation has a slight delay before you can do it tough. Also for all the people who raged about how WFaS was lacking. Well duh, they needed some time to fix shit and find out whta works and not. And while that's not an excuse for a AAA game, this is Mount and Blade. It was created on paid beta and community mod integration in the main game. Of course it needed to run for some time before it turned gold (and gold it is :D)
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: WaltF4 on June 22, 2011, 06:18:01 am
hope crpg can get the coding to work in warband.

A two-handed overhead thrust for polearms is already in the native .brf files. You can change the action.txt file to use it. The problem is that doing so replaces the overhead attack animation for all weapon that use the current polearm overhead animation. This would mean that weapons like the long maul and poleaxes would have a high thrust instead of the downward overhead slash. One possible solution would be to make all of the "thrust first" polearms (long spear, pike, awlpike, etc.) weapon use the modified polearm overhead thrust and make all of the slashing/crushing polearms use the current two-handed weapon overhead attack. However, the use of the two-handed weapon animation would increase the range of the overhead attack of many already powerful polearms by ~30 cm.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Gorath on June 22, 2011, 06:37:01 am
FUCKING LOVE THIS!  I hope cRPG adds these features.  I actually want to buy WFaS now just to have fun crouching and being a pikeman.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 22, 2011, 07:59:52 am
A two-handed overhead thrust for polearms is already in the native .brf files. You can change the action.txt file to use it. The problem is that doing so replaces the overhead attack animation for all weapon that use the current polearm overhead animation. This would mean that weapons like the long maul and poleaxes would have a high thrust instead of the downward overhead slash. One possible solution would be to make all of the "thrust first" polearms (long spear, pike, awlpike, etc.) weapon use the modified polearm overhead thrust and make all of the slashing/crushing polearms use the current two-handed weapon overhead attack. However, the use of the two-handed weapon animation would increase the range of the overhead attack of many already powerful polearms by ~30 cm.
I'd be ok with that. That seems like something worth testing.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Vibe on June 22, 2011, 08:07:47 am
Hm nice, hope this brings some population back to WFAS, last time i checked the MP servers it was quite dead (for EU).
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: 7000bc on June 22, 2011, 08:25:24 am
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTT AAAAAADDD THE PIKES CHAOS WILL HAVE AN ORAGASM
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 22, 2011, 01:46:24 pm
FUCKING LOVE THIS!  I hope cRPG adds these features.  I actually want to buy WFaS now just to have fun crouching and being a pikeman.
Well to put it like this. For the first time ever I am gonna make a SP character that is pure footman. PIKE FTW!
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Kafein on June 22, 2011, 01:50:55 pm
Haha, would this be so drastically different from two pikemen, one with thrust and one with overhead ready, as it is now?

I'm all for this. :)

You forget the real macho Pike-of-I-can-hit-you-through-a-wall (the 300 reach one) only got the thrust attack.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: ManOfWar on June 22, 2011, 06:36:50 pm
I hope taleworlds does not see this as ripping them off :/
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Dezilagel on June 22, 2011, 07:23:47 pm
Sorry for spoiling your fun, but I really don't see a reason to buff long spear vs. infantry, it is already one of the best melee weapons in the game.

Sure the overhead thrust is quite obvious to spot in a duel vs. a pikeman, but pikes have never been an issue in duels, and this would be a significant buff for them in group combat, which is their main turf.

Couching pikes (standing still!!!) sounds awesome though, just as long as it doesn't get exploited to death (if it staggers at low speed i.e infantry, it would make for insane camping).
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on June 22, 2011, 07:27:03 pm
Sorry for spoiling your fun, but I really don't see a reason to buff long spear vs. infantry, it is already one of the best melee weapons in the game.

Sure the overhead thrust is quite obvious to spot in a duel vs. a pikeman, but pikes have never been an issue in duels, and this would be a significant buff for them in group combat, which is their main turf.

Couching pikes (standing still!!!) sounds awesome though, just as long as it doesn't get exploited to death (if it staggers at low speed i.e infantry, it would make for insane camping).
i agree it would mean a lot rebalancing so that its effective no buff, would be awesome nonetheless. Someone here also said the overhead is very difficult to land in Sword + fire.

are we talking about couching or crouching? i thought of crouching.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 22, 2011, 07:32:52 pm
Sorry for spoiling your fun, but I really don't see a reason to buff long spear vs. infantry, it is already one of the best melee weapons in the game.

Sure the overhead thrust is quite obvious to spot in a duel vs. a pikeman, but pikes have never been an issue in duels, and this would be a significant buff for them in group combat, which is their main turf.

Couching pikes (standing still!!!) sounds awesome though, just as long as it doesn't get exploited to death (if it staggers at low speed i.e infantry, it would make for insane camping).
Been playing a some MP with the pike now and while the new animation was a bit hard to recognize at first, it didn't really take that much time. And in melees it is still just like the overhead, a second attack except that it makes more sense, is harder to hit with, but is not as telling as swinging that 245cm long thingie like a club over your head. Overall a nice improvement. It's easy to distinguish the difference between the upstab and the old lowstab.

i agree it would mean a lot rebalancing so that its effective no buff, would be awesome nonetheless. Someone here also said the overhead is very difficult to land in Sword + fire.

are we talking about couching or crouching? i thought of crouching.
Yeah it's a bit more difficult to land because of the hitbox, but not that much less than the overhead. And also there is no couching with it. Sadly. (BTw on foot it would be bracing not couching)
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Dezilagel on June 22, 2011, 08:08:10 pm
Been playing a some MP with the pike now and while the new animation was a bit hard to recognize at first, it didn't really take that much time. And in melees it is still just like the overhead, a second attack except that it makes more sense, is harder to hit with, but is not as telling as swinging that 245cm long thingie like a club over your head. Overall a nice improvement. It's easy to distinguish the difference between the upstab and the old lowstab.
Yeah it's a bit more difficult to land because of the hitbox, but not that much less than the overhead.

If you are right then (and I have no reason to believe you aren't  :wink:), then I welcome this.

And also there is no couching with it. Sadly. (BTw on foot it would be bracing not couching)

Oops, double fail on my part xD

Pike bracing would still be a cool feature tho imo, but I guess this is not the thread.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 22, 2011, 08:16:07 pm
If you are right then (and I have no reason to believe you aren't  :wink:), then I welcome this.

Oops, double fail on my part xD

Pike bracing would still be a cool feature tho imo, but I guess this is not the thread.
NP: Although people will think it is OP in the beginning because they wont be used to the animation. I fucked up a lot of blocks because I thought "pointy end towards me means stab, downblock" even when the animation was totally not the lowstab. Had to stop and think. Stab has to attacks, up and down, down I'm used to so anything that doesn't look like that means up block. It just takes a bit to get used to and many people will whine first and not wait for it to be common. Pretty much the same as with manual blocking in the first place. You just have to get used to it.

If you played Native Expanded in the original mount and blade they had a ok bracing system. Was a bit stupid with the hitboxes (you could ride at them from the side and still be hit) but the bracing itself was ok.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: MouthnHoof on June 22, 2011, 08:45:13 pm
A two-handed overhead thrust for polearms is already in the native .brf files. You can change the action.txt file to use it. The problem is that doing so replaces the overhead attack animation for all weapon that use the current polearm overhead animation. This would mean that weapons like the long maul and poleaxes would have a high thrust instead of the downward overhead slash. One possible solution would be to make all of the "thrust first" polearms (long spear, pike, awlpike, etc.) weapon use the modified polearm overhead thrust and make all of the slashing/crushing polearms use the current two-handed weapon overhead attack. However, the use of the two-handed weapon animation would increase the range of the overhead attack of many already powerful polearms by ~30 cm.
Using 2H overhead animation for polearms looks reasonable. The main difference is which hand is infront of the other (right forward in 2H, left in poles). Polearms are a kind of weapon in which the grip is often and rapidly changed and this is neither unrealistic nor awkward looking.

In terms of game balance, if the reach is excessive (I seriously doubt it), these weapons can take a small damage nerf. The current situation in which a 2H sword reaches as far as the swiss halberd is not exactly balanced either. The long Maul whose main attack is the overhead for the crushes can simply be shortened (also the 3D mesh).

The other problem is that if the overhead damage becomes pierce, it will be pierce for side swings as well. Not so good for implementing on the likes of the war spear, so 4-way polearms cannot have a second pierce attack. Will really help the forks, ashwood/awl pikes, long spear and even the boar spear may become more attractive as a 2-thrust spear.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: BigRick on June 22, 2011, 09:05:40 pm
in WFAS you can also use a small-sized round shield while using a bow... now that would be OP!
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Richter on June 22, 2011, 11:21:16 pm
I am interested.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Kafein on June 22, 2011, 11:29:44 pm
I am interested.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


It's really sad the morion really looks bad ingame.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: rustyspoon on June 23, 2011, 12:28:28 am
It's really sad the morion really looks bad ingame.

That's my biggest complaint. A lot of the models look like shit.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Vibe on June 23, 2011, 08:12:39 am
Was the melee buffed any? Because last time I played it, it was down right shit.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: rustyspoon on June 23, 2011, 02:11:34 pm
Was the melee buffed any? Because last time I played it, it was down right shit.

It was actually. All the weapon speeds were increased and they increased damage across the board. It doesn't take a day and a half to swing a 2 hander anymore. Rifles are incredibly deadly now too.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Vibe on June 23, 2011, 02:28:05 pm
It was actually. All the weapon speeds were increased and they increased damage across the board. It doesn't take a day and a half to swing a 2 hander anymore. Rifles are incredibly deadly now too.

Hm good to hear that. Then the few euros I spent on WFAS wasn't a complete waste :)
Altho I do admit getting multikills with grenades was fun.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: _JoG_ on June 23, 2011, 05:57:21 pm
Rifles are incredibly deadly now too.
WAIT WHAT?

Back on the topic, pikes already rape everyone in a group melee. Due to the most awesome polearm spinthrust you can stab with your pike even if your opponent is facehugging you. If you add another pike thrust animation (especially the one aimed directly at your opponent's head! Lol, another instakill animation), they will become a bit OP. The current overhead animation STAGGERS your opponent, the new thrust animation will KILL him. Do you guys see the difference?
And... I predict further increase in the number of archers and other ranged classes, since it would be the only viable countermeasure to long polearms.
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Erathsmus on June 23, 2011, 06:53:05 pm
lol, when I first bought WFaS, I was going to kill something because it was sooooooooo bad. I remember multiplayer quite well, it was like everyone was swinging like they had been using guns for too long XD Great to see they implemented some stuff that is almost worthwhile. *still not worth the 15$ imo* If that mod was $15, when c-rpg is fully released it will cost $15,000 (because it is 1000x better).
Title: Re: M&B F&S has update for Pike - 2 types of thrusting!!!
Post by: Jarlek on June 23, 2011, 07:16:21 pm
WAIT WHAT?

Back on the topic, pikes already rape everyone in a group melee. Due to the most awesome polearm spinthrust you can stab with your pike even if your opponent is facehugging you. If you add another pike thrust animation (especially the one aimed directly at your opponent's head! Lol, another instakill animation), they will become a bit OP. The current overhead animation STAGGERS your opponent, the new thrust animation will KILL him. Do you guys see the difference?
And... I predict further increase in the number of archers and other ranged classes, since it would be the only viable countermeasure to long polearms.
Actually facehugging works really well against pikes. no matter how much spinthrusting they do they will still not hit you. Remember that we are talking about the 300+ pikes and not the longspear. These pikes have their hitboxes way too far off. This is also the reason that they can hit through allies since they are facehugging them. Still, you only need a tad more space and you can do it if you time it right (but hey, if you get hit by a very slow attack, which is one of 1 or 2 attack directions, then it's not the game being bad.). The overstab is not Op ether. It is a bit slower than the normal lowstab, can't be aimed up or down, and has an even smaller hitbox than the lowstab. And of course rifles are deadly. Why should they not? Altough armor really needs a buff.