cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: DaFrog on June 21, 2011, 04:07:02 pm
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I created a thread into the suggestion corner but it looks like than not a lot of people read it (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,7565.0.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,7565.0.html))
Anyway i really do not understand why you guys do not want to add some sort of automated punishement to TA and TK ? Most of RPG game where you can kill you own team have some sort of consequences but in cRPG there is absolutely nothing.
I'm tired about getting some arrow in my ass, about people who just spam with 2 hand without paying attention to there mate or horseman who just do not care to charge you. This is just the top of the icecream as there is a lot more way to be annoyed by TA or TK like people who just kill your horse for the lolz.
From what i read most of you do not want reversed TK and even if i do not agree with most of you i can understand your point of view as it will affect gameplay in some way. Anyway looks like some kind of admin/dev say they will never use reverse TK into cRPG, fine but reverse TA and TK is not the only way to deal with it.
A penalty to EXP/GOLD can be a good punishment to deal with TA and TK as most player will be affected by it. This kind of penalty will not affect directly the gameplay but at least people would be a bit more careful and do not hit there mate for the lolz.
Seriously there is many way to deal with TA and TK so just pick the one you want but do something about it.
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+1! each hit could be -25 gold and each kill -250 gold would add up quickly if your just indiscriminately swing and wouldn't be too big of a penalty if you do it on accident
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In a game where intentionally getting someone else to TK you is as easy as here, this is a terrible idea.
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250 is nth, i can tk all day :twisted:
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Well, there is a punishment for TK and TA: if you Tk some1, your team might lose because of that. However, I think it is not very fair. TK is a personal business, and for that there should be personal responsibility, not collective.
I've played cRPG since the very beginning, and for those of you who came only recently, I can say there was a severe punishment for TKs before. 1 TK would cost you about 3-4 hours of grinding...AND I AM NOT KIDDING.
Due to the heavy whine (in my opinion) this hard measure was abandoned. Though I would still suggest Devs to return it. Maybe not so severe (Though I never complained about it), but still teamkillers AND ESPECIALLY TEAMWOUNDERS should be aware that for their actions there will be automatic punishment, so we don't have to waste time explaining what happened to admins.
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A punishment system is way too easy to abuse. If you want to grief just run around in light armor and dive in front of friendly cav, or in front of any friendly for that matter. There are instances where the person wounded or tk'd was actually the one 'in the wrong' because they positioned themselves in the way of someone's mid-way swing or something else (not often but occasionally).
There already are punishments built in for TA & TKing; a decreased chance to win the round, which translates to reduction in gold and xp. For intentionally TA & TKing there are built in punishments in the form of admin punishments.
Honestly anything built in to punish tkers is going to be a double-edged sword. It works fine as is - people who don't apologize for tking or who tk a lot are known for it and generally less respected for it.
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boo hoo. Just try to be careful.
THere should be a punishment for team horse-killing though.. :evil:
I complained when someone came up to me and team-killed my horse...while I was just standing there..so blatant. He said, "it's just a horse." Dude, that's my equipment! WTF! It happens kind of often...
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The horse killing is bannable on some servers if you can screenshot it.
As for tk punishment, with this game, accidental tks and hits are just a part of it. Most people do not purposely try to hit their teammates but its gonna happen when 10 people are trying to kill one dude. I'm sure the OP has hit a teammate before. Would you want to be kicked or get that damage reflected back for those accidents? Fuck no.
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The horse killing is bannable on some servers if you can screenshot it.
As for tk punishment, with this game, accidental tks and hits are just a part of it. Most people do not purposely try to hit their teammates but its gonna happen when 10 people are trying to kill one dude. I'm sure the OP has hit a teammate before. Would you want to be kicked or get that damage reflected back for those accidents? Fuck no.
No I would hate that. It's fucking annoying on those servers that have it in native. But I would not mind a gold penalty, maybe not even a exp one. Because if you accidentally hit someone and lose, I don't know, 2000 gold your gonna go "oh shit I gotta stop", but if you teamattack someone to troll, your gonna have to use a lot of swings and lose quite some gold. Btw, the 2k gold is a bit of an exaggeration, but making it too light would also be too bad.
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The problem I see is that there is no way to differentiate between legitimate accidents, which I don't see as a problem, and plain old carelessness or intentional killing.
Mistakes happen - it really doesn't bother me if someone just accidently kills me. I always say I'm sorry when I do it, and I always accept apologies no matter how dumb the mistake was.
But, what bothers me is for instance, in the middle of a 1 v1 melee fight - you hit the guy twice and right before you finish him off a 'friendly' archer shoots into the fight, hitting you in the back and killing you, just hoping to get a lucky and grab a killshot.
Or, some idiot with a sword jumps in the middle of the fight at the same time and causes you to hit them, and instead of one of you killing the guy when he was vulnerable, both of you end up dead just because they wanted to get the killshot. Then the jerk gets mad at you for his own careless, greedy mistake and revenge tk you, double screwing you over.
Or if I was cavalry, someone hitting my horse for no reason would bother me as much as when 'friendly' cavalry charges over me, knocks me down and causes me to die (these two behaviors might have a positive correlation).
If there were an automated way to distinguish between these team hits and true accidents, then this idea would be feasible, but the only way to do that is case by case, and that is what they do currently through the use of admins.
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Lets see how quickly this gets shot down :mrgreen:
How about increasing gold/xp penalties for both the TKer and the TKed? E.g. each successive TK you are involved in during a 24 hour period, gets double the fine. After 24 hours it gets reset. That only hands out very minor punishments for true accidents but hits repeated offenders hard.
I say both the TKer and the TKed because people who get TKed all the time are clearly doing something wrong and therefore just as guilty as people who TK all the time. So either Punish them both or leave it as it is.
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Lets see how quickly this gets shot down :mrgreen:
How about increasing gold/xp penalties for both the TKer and the TKed? E.g. each successive TK you are involved in during a 24 hour period, gets double the fine. After 24 hours it gets reset. That only hands out very minor punishments for true accidents but hits repeated offenders hard.
I say both the TKer and the TKed because people who get TKed all the time are clearly doing something wrong and therefore just as guilty as people who TK all the time. So either Punish them both or leave it as it is.
Hmmm. This actually look like a good idea. Although I can think of one way to abuse this (a clan makes everyone spawn in a server and hit one guy once each, thus giving him a huge penalty while only getting a slight one themselves) it isn't actually that bad. And that would also be very easy to document as all of them would have to teamhit so one should easily figure it out and start making screens.
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How about increasing gold/xp penalties for both the TKer and the TKed? E.g. each successive TK you are involved in during a 24 hour period, gets double the fine. After 24 hours it gets reset. That only hands out very minor punishments for true accidents but hits repeated offenders hard.
THIS! +1
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Hitting team mates is just part of the war imo.
Just add a timer to the start for example 20-30secs when you get somekind of punishment when you tk/ta. One solution could be that you get twice the amount of damage you do. Theres always kids trying to piss off people, admins just have to catch them.
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It almost always happens by accident in the chaos of battle, no punishment necessary.
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Automated kick after x amount of TK's. This is possible, have seen it in use on some native servers. Allows for accidents, punishes intent.
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I've played cRPG since the very beginning, and for those of you who came only recently, I can say there was a severe punishment for TKs before. 1 TK would cost you about 3-4 hours of grinding...AND I AM NOT KIDDING.
I remeber those days, but from what I remember you lost the amount of gold you would earn when your team won a good round. Ca 70-100 gold.
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I remeber those days, but from what I remember you lost the amount of gold you would earn when your team won a good round. Ca 70-100 gold.
you also lost a percentage of XP. It was a very small percentages, but to people who had played for hundereds of hours, it came out to a very large amount.
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I would be in favor of some sort of incremental punishment, as long as it was either to my gold or xp. Not in favor of kicks or reflective damage. It would definitely keep some people from just wildly swinging or shooting into a melee and punish those that do it often.
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First i can definitely not agree with people who think than the currently system with no personal punishment is fine. The current system is by far the worst i have ever seen in any rpg game with friendly fire. People who TK or TA are most of the time not punished but the worst thing about the current system : it is TK friendly. As it work now the current system do not discourage team killing at all. In fact the current system is supporting team killing/TA and team killer/TA.
Admin are currently useless to do anything most of the time as you have no proof than someone have TA or TK you intentionally. If you do not run FRAPS at all time you will just not have any proof. Pretty easy to TA or TK someone and just run away like nothing happens admin can do nothing about it and are doing nothing about it.
But that's not the worst part of the current system. The worst is than "not intentionally" TK or TA are not personally punished and this do not make sense at all. TA and TK are personal business and it do not matter that much if it was intentionally or not it should be punished. Why ? Because without punishment people will not care about it and this kind of system will be supporting TK and TA.
I have seen today an archer trying to kill an enemy who was fighting with 3 guys from the same team as him, did i have to tell you how it end ? One of the 3 guys was TKed and by the way that's considered as not intentionally team kill...
That's exactly what's the current system is about why would someone not try to kill an enemy even if there is a high risk than one of is mate will be wounded or team killed ? Who care ? This archer was unlucky and killed a mate instead of just wound one of his mate which cost him...nothing. But that's not only related to archer obviously and this apply to every situation.
The point is even if there is a high risk to wound one of his mate people as it is now will take the risk to wound or TK there mate to kill an enemy as there is no punishment anyway for it.
Secondly as i say previously it dosen't matter if TK/TA was intentionally or not, it should be punished. The only differences should be than intentionally TK/TA should be a banable offense. There is currently a lot of players who are not even able to do a whole map without TK or TA one of there mate. Why the hell are we supposed to support player who are not able to do even a map without TK/TA someone ?!
The most important thing in a teamplay game with friendly fire is to learn to avoid TK and TA. But in this game as it is now the amount of TK and TA in each round is completely amazing. Today i have even seen some player from the higher part of the scoreboard doing like 3 TK in the same round...People should learn to play without TK and TA. It's not like it's that hard to avoid TK and TA, this game is not that much fast and as long as you pay attention to you environment and anticipate just a little bit it's easy as hell to avoid TK/TA especially as you can stop your swing at any time.
So i don't know if EXP/GOLD penalty is the best punishment to deal with TK/TA but it would be obviously better than no punishment at all as it is now. By the way just pick up the kind of punishment you want and add it into the cRPG. Looks like the old one was pretty fine by the way.
At the end i do not see any valid reason for people to do not agree to add some sort of punishment for team killing and team attack because as long as they play carefully it's easy as hell to avoid it. Only usual team killer/wounder can disagree to get some punishment for it.
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Here is a selection of threads talking about the subject, and it is not exhaustive, there are plenty of thread like this (this does not tell you that you should not have post) but you see more response and thoughts, well, I think if the admins had wanted to do something that would be done.
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2794.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1362.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,7717.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1324.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2565.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1388.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2246.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,4144.0.html
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,969.0.html
Imo, Tk/Ta are not a big deal, and are already punished by removing tickets and chances to win for the team ( i don't speak of grieffers which are dealt in a different manner with ban thread and admin actions).
Also, "collateral damage" have always been part of the war, that's may be one of reason armies have uniforms, battles of the past show that sometimes there can be mistake like a cavalry charge in the wrong regiment, artillery fire on your own position, and archer volley in the back of your charging infantry (even now with technology, we saw American Helicopter shooting at British tank in Afghanistan, even on reporter, oh no, sorry there it was on purpose!).
We can always find a system to punish tker, but every system can be abused and it only brings new problems
I remember the old system, and tbh, it doesn't change anything, there were as many Tk as now, even if at that time losing 100 gold + xp was loosing almost the entire gain of the round (around 100 and 200 gold)
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First i can definitely not agree with people who think than the currently system with no personal punishment is fine. The current system is by far the worst i have ever seen in any rpg game with friendly fire. People who TK or TA are most of the time not punished but the worst thing about the current system : it is TK friendly. As it work now the current system do not discourage team killing at all. In fact the current system is supporting team killing/TA and team killer/TA.
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But that's not the worst part of the current system. The worst is than "not intentionally" TK or TA are not personally punished and this do not make sense at all. TA and TK are personal business and it do not matter that much if it was intentionally or not it should be punished. Why ? Because without punishment people will not care about it and this kind of system will be supporting TK and TA.
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That's exactly what's the current system is about why would someone not try to kill an enemy even if there is a high risk than one of is mate will be wounded or team killed ? Who care ? This archer was unlucky and killed a mate instead of just wound one of his mate which cost him...nothing. But that's not only related to archer obviously and this apply to every situation.
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I quoted sections of your post. You seem to believe that the current system makes no sense and no punishment exists. Here is why I disagree:
1) Currently punishment exists in the way of public embarrassment and loss of respect if someone is clearly negligent and tks/tas recklessly. It tells other people "hey - this guy isn't that great of a player" or "this guy has no awareness" or "this guy wouldn't work well in a team/clan". Being ostracized from a gaming community that depends on teamwork is a pretty harsh punishment if you ask me. People remember.
Case in point: I've heard many times from players that "BlackRose is known for tking". Yet if you go to nacrpg.net only 2 BlackRose are in the top 125 for tks, none of which are in the top 25. The belief that BlackRose tks at a significantly higher rate is untrue, however the "taint" from players no longer in the clan sticks with the community.
2) As I said before, there is always an inherent punishment for TKing (unless it's the end of round) which is you are hurting your team's chances to win by making yourself outnumbered. The more you tk the harder it will be to win, which means less gold and xp through multipliers.
3) Putting a money/xp value on TKs would actually probably cause players to care less than they do now. Frankly, I have plenty of gold, and I'm sure many others have even more. It then becomes "oops I tk'd. Oh well I paid some gold and now I'm absolved". It cheapens the crime, and people care much less about gold in game then they do their image, I can guarantee you that.
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That is unnecessary. If a player intentionally tks they will receive a kick or a ban. To be frank, 250 gold is nothing to a lot of people and so it would only work to further agitate new players into quitting CRPG because they cannot gain money with all their accidental team, hits.
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If there needs to be a TA/TK punishment system (I personally believe there is no real need for it) I would just redirect the damage back to attacker, like on some native servers.
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Your talking about punishing unintentional tks as well? :lol:
That's just plain dumb. We already have a vote kick option that, if you post a reason, and it's obvious the person is tking, then they will get kicked. Or admins will do it. There's no need to put in a system that will punish purely accidental tks, because, lets face it, we get a lot of them. The majority of people apologise straight away. Anyone who does it to me always apologises, as do I. Even if I put 1 arrow in someone I apologise, even when it doesn't kill them.
You also can't compare this game to other MP rpgs. What other rpgs are in reality a first person medieval warfare game with even a similar system to Warband/cRPG. I can't think of any.
If someone is obviously trolling ect, then the current system means they will get kicked. If you can post proof of it, they will serve a ban. I think that's a fair system. Any in built system will quickly lead to protest by archers, HA, 2h, polearm users, hell, anyone who is liable to accidentally tk.
Be polite. Apologise. Accept an apology and be gentlemen. Even if it's a stupid mistake. Otherwise, intentional tkers will get kicked/banned.
As MrShine says, cRPG is a relatively small community. If you get banned on a server, you only have limited options as to where to go after that. Either you play in an empty server on your own, you join another server and play properly or you get banned from all of them. He also makes a good point that putting a gold value on it cheapens the crime. A small gaming community like cRPG can put enough pressure on trolls to make sure they don't hang around long.
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I'd agree that it's just part of the game, but I think the "shame" or mild consequences could easily go a bit further with some additional stat tracking. Specifically, the raw team damage caused should be tracked and pinned to each toon just as TKs are now. I'd also REALLY like to know who is in fact damaging me on my team.
Clearly, 90% or more of the TKs in the game are accidental though I'm sure MANY are the direct result of players overreaching and trying to get a kill to the detriment of an engaged teammate. Of course, I also know the vast majority of team damage comes from my two-handed brothers and sisters...I think 90% of my deaths are due to their inaccurate spam and I go into and come out of a good portion of my fights with significant team wounds.
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TBH I am affraid of fighting opponents if there are "friendly" 2handers around cos I always get teamwounded by them. I prefer to let the 2hander fight and die first, so I can come in and kill the enemy player safely.
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team wounds happen, you tend to realize which players are bad at fighting next to teammates, leave em be, go fight else where. Also if you add exp/gold loss to stop what? those guys that tk on purpose? they know what they are doing, and the funny thing is, their mind set is not giving a fuck atm, gold and exp loss? only affects the accidents.
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How about - every time you hit a friendly, your weapon drops on the ground? :)
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I said it already a couple of times:
I absolutely don't understand why you guys have so much trouble with tkers. I play this game since nearly two years, and have no trouble at all. Except in 1 single case there was allways a way to talk about it. But if you categorical need a punishment, I don't care.
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It looks like nacrpg.net doesn't track TKs on siege (thank goodness), but I am an admitted frequent (unintentional) TKer. I probably average 2-3 TKs per map, and sometimes i've had 3 in one round. For reference, I wield a +2 (soon to be +3) Great Long Bardiche and I have 10 PS. Here are some of the reasons I TK so much:
-My weapon is unbalanced. If a teammate kills an enemy mid-swing, I can't feint to stop from hitting him.
-My weapon is long. I kill people in my backswing all the time, and I had no idea they were there.
-I'm uncoordinated. Sometimes I am hitting a door with a bunch of teammates, and I accidentally execute a right swing instead of an overhead,so dead teammate.
-I put team objectives ahead of avoiding TKs. i.e. If I'm on flag and we're getting swarmed by attackers, I'll spam swings while spinning like a lunatic. Sometimes this buys my team a few precious seconds, but I've killed teammates this way too.
-I'll be fighting 1v1 with someone, and a facehugging teammate will run up between us trying to 'help'. I assume they know the risks and I continue swinging.
I already get mocked in chat for my TKing deeds, which is pretty humiliating. No gold, XP, or reflective damage penalty will affect how many TKs I cause due to the above. Maybe if you forced me to wear a peasant dress for the next round...
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There was a system long time ago, it sucked for several reasons. The main problem is that counting only teamkills is bad idea because the actual problem is teamwounding, which goes completely unnoticed by the scoreboard. It might not even be actual hit but just a glance which throws you ouf of the block and causes your death. Same for cavalry idiots, who horsebump teammates just to try to steal the kill.
The only viable solution I've found so far is axe to the forehead next round. Works well.
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The only viable solution I've found so far is axe to the forehead next round. Works well.
If you do that then you're the kinda guy that gives this game problems. Not unintentional tkers or wounders.
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I dont think we need a punish of loosing XP or Gold.
Just remove the Team Damage! and add mirror dmg instead!
That means if u hit a friendly player u get the dmg instead, and the friendly player doesnt get harmed!
Same for horses, if someone hits a friendly horse he gets the dmg instead. Same for teambumps with horses, the horse rider gets the dmg for the bumping.
With that system only the one who does teamdmg gets punished a little bit, but the one who received the teamdmg does not get punished.
Loosing Gold or XP would count as a double punish. For the one who hits his teammate, and for the teammate who gets hit and then probably looses a fight because of low HP.
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I dont think we need a punish of loosing XP or Gold.
Just remove the Team Damage! and add mirror dmg instead!
That means if u hit a friendly player u get the dmg instead, and the friendly player doesnt get harmed!
Same for horses, if someone hits a friendly horse he gets the dmg instead. Same for teambumps with horses, the horse rider gets the dmg for the bumping.
With that system only the one who does teamdmg gets punished a little bit, but the one who received the teamdmg does not get punished.
Loosing Gold or XP would count as a double punish. For the one who hits his teammate, and for the teammate who gets hit and then probably looses a fight because of low HP.
I'm so grateful the devs already said this will never happen. Mirror damage is horrible.
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Sadly, a balanced system of tk/tw will never be possible since every situation is unique.
For examples, really stupid and annoying tk/tw situations include:
- ANY intentional tk/tw (ofc!)
- Friendly couch whilst in melee
- Friendly lance whilst in melee
- Friendly bump whilst in melee
- Friendly arrow in melee
- Obviously careless swings in melee (this one is abit vague, but if someone spams sideswings in a friendly clusterfuck chaseing etc...)
- Friendlies killing the ladder ur on
...and more, but point is all of these situations deserve some form of more severe punishment imo.
Now, some situations that imo would not call for punishment:
- Stray arrow
- Someone stepping infront of a swing (as said, melee is more vague, but you get the idea)
- Unintentional bumping whilst not in melee
- Killing the @sshole that is intentionally repetedly tk-ing/tw-ing you.
...And many more.
Also:
If someone does someething stupid, and apologizes for it, it just makes it SO much easier to just wanna let it slide. ("Soz bro, that was stupid. Wanna try my +3 xxx next round?")
I can't stress this enough, a good apology makes up for almost any unintentional tw/tk imo.
(On the other hand, if you do a really stupid tk, don't whine about it if you get abit of flaming!)
There are so many things going on that simply cannot be measured by the server, and NOT punishing the good guys is WAY more important than punishing the @rseholes.
Besides, we do have admins, and kickpolls (the latter abused enough already), so inventing some ultra-advanced tk/tw punishment system should not be high at all on the dev "to do list" (STRATEGUS!)
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Dezi, I hadn't thought of the "offering the heirloomed weapon next round as an olive branch" idea, I'll try that next time I TK a fellow pole user. Would be easier if siege didn't auto-switch half the players every round, though.
This obscure thing called "Real life" often offers a good example of how to handle most problems in video games. If you make a mistake in the real world that harms a friend/coworker/family member/teammate, you apologize and move on. If you intentionally harmed them, then you generally end up fired/divorced/kicked off the team etc.
Strangely enough, that's how the system currently works in CRPG! If someone is frequently, intentionally TKing, it generally doesn't take long for them to get banned.
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A punishment system is way too easy to abuse.
Instead of a PUNISH system I'd go with a REWARD system. Say if you don't have any TKs at the end of the last round you get a little gold/xp bonus. That way players who TK a lot can still do what they do yet those who don't TK get rewarded.
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Actually this would be a nice idea.
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Instead of a PUNISH system I'd go with a REWARD system. Say if you don't have any TKs at the end of the last round you get a little gold/xp bonus. That way players who TK a lot can still do what they do yet those who don't TK get rewarded.
That... makes perfect sense! And how can people abuse this? By leeching, which is banable and easily noticed too!
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I'm so grateful the devs already said this will never happen. Mirror damage is horrible.
good
then handle with the system these days! then we dont need a gold/xp punish system....
let it stay what it is
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Instead of a PUNISH system I'd go with a REWARD system. Say if you don't have any TKs at the end of the last round you get a little gold/xp bonus. That way players who TK a lot can still do what they do yet those who don't TK get rewarded.
How to avoid accidental TKs? Hide away from your teammates, spread out, dont play tactical.. or hide!
Also, this will punish the TKers by not giving them the reward, as you will get the reward most of the time, it will feel like a punishment.
What do you do when some ass**** jumps in front of you after you started to swing your inbalanced wep against the enemy? You kill him because of his action, he gets the reward, and you dont.
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How to avoid accidental TKs? Hide away from your teammates, spread out, dont play tactical.. or hide!
Also, this will punish the TKers by not giving them the reward, as you will get the reward most of the time, it will feel like a punishment.
What do you do when some ass**** jumps in front of you after you started to swing your inbalanced wep against the enemy? You kill him because of his action, he gets the reward, and you dont.
Me personally I almost never TK and I currently play 2 of the most TK prone classes (archer and thrower). When I play melee it's very easy for me NOT to TK. I'm not swing/kill happy and I'm always aware of those surrounding me and what they are doing or likely to do. I see all the time 3 or more guys going after one guy and all teamwounding or killing each other in the process. Sorry, that's just bad playing right there. If a punish only system is put in effect then people will whine about that too. Someone will always be upset about something.
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I agree, im annoyed also by getting ta's and tk's, so your suggestion of xp lowering / gold is great IMO.
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most of the time i TK is when im fighting a guy 1 on 1 and someone jumps in front of me to try to kill or they stab the guy im fighting in the back and my swing hits them instead :P punishment for that is harsh. As for ranged well i do get unlucky with my xbow char and i shoot and someone walks round the corner into the bolt ^^. I do say sorry even if its the other guys fault as its only polite :D
Most of the time im TKd however is people with pikes stabbing me in the back :D
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Some classes are prone to getting teamhits and teamkills more often than others - throwing is always getting me teamhits (actual TKs not so often) because the slow speed of the weapon means there's plenty of time for an ally to jump into its path before it hits the enemy. On the other hand, how often is anyone teamkilled by a pikeman? Then there's the "ragdoll" kill where the TKer is blameless, but just happened to attack a tiny fraction of a second after an ally: the enemy dies and the blow goes through the ragdolling enemy and hits a friend.
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Not to mention the overhead back kills :D
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How to avoid accidental TKs? Hide away from your teammates, spread out, dont play tactical.. or hide!
Also, this will punish the TKers by not giving them the reward, as you will get the reward most of the time, it will feel like a punishment.
What do you do when some ass**** jumps in front of you after you started to swing your inbalanced wep against the enemy? You kill him because of his action, he gets the reward, and you dont.
Pretty much what i was going to write.
Sadly, a balanced system of tk/tw will never be possible since every situation is unique.
For examples, really stupid and annoying tk/tw situations include:
- ANY intentional tk/tw (ofc!)
- Friendly couch whilst in melee
- Friendly lance whilst in melee
- Friendly bump whilst in melee
- Friendly arrow in melee
- Obviously careless swings in melee (this one is abit vague, but if someone spams sideswings in a friendly clusterfuck chaseing etc...)
- Friendlies killing the ladder ur on
...and more, but point is all of these situations deserve some form of more severe punishment imo.
Now, some situations that imo would not call for punishment:
- Stray arrow
- Someone stepping infront of a swing (as said, melee is more vague, but you get the idea)
- Unintentional bumping whilst not in melee
- Killing the @sshole that is intentionally repetedly tk-ing/tw-ing you.
...And many more.
Also:
If someone does someething stupid, and apologizes for it, it just makes it SO much easier to just wanna let it slide. ("Soz bro, that was stupid. Wanna try my +3 xxx next round?")
I can't stress this enough, a good apology makes up for almost any unintentional tw/tk imo.
(On the other hand, if you do a really stupid tk, don't whine about it if you get abit of flaming!)
There are so many things going on that simply cannot be measured by the server, and NOT punishing the good guys is WAY more important than punishing the @rseholes.
Besides, we do have admins, and kickpolls (the latter abused enough already), so inventing some ultra-advanced tk/tw punishment system should not be high at all on the dev "to do list" (STRATEGUS!)
This list is crap. If you, as an archer, see two people with equal skill and equipment fight, you should always shoot unless tehre is a better target around.
Reason? if there is a bigger chance of hitting the enemy than the friend (which we assume since the archer aims for the enemy and is hopefully not a total retard), it will statisticly help your team, increasing he chance of winning.
Same goes for lancers in terms of lancing and bumping.
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This list is crap. If you, as an archer, see two people with equal skill and equipment fight, you should always shoot unless tehre is a better target around.
Reason? if there is a bigger chance of hitting the enemy than the friend (which we assume since the archer aims for the enemy and is hopefully not a total retard), it will statisticly help your team, increasing he chance of winning.
Same goes for lancers in terms of lancing and bumping.
What kind of logic is that? This is not about statistics, this is about humans, and I think all can agree that getting tk'd sucks balls.
Btw, if you really wanna go down that route, you're still wrong.
If I fight in melee, and notice that enemy archers are firing at me, I will ofc adjust my playstyle to that. I will twist and turn in time with their volleys and try to position my enemy between me and the archers. Also, I will play on the defensive, so that if I do get hit, I'll probably not die to my enemies next swing. Point being, if I see it, and expect it I will do my best to defend against it, vastly incresing my chance of survival.
On the other hand nobody expects the spanish inquisition a friendly arrow in the back, and as such they are much more likely to get me killed.
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What kind of logic is that? This is not about statistics, this is about humans, and I think all can agree that getting tk'd sucks balls.
Btw, if you really wanna go down that route, you're still wrong.
If I fight in melee, and notice that enemy archers are firing at me, I will ofc adjust my playstyle to that. I will twist and turn in time with their volleys and try to position my enemy between me and the archers. Also, I will play on the defensive, so that if I do get hit, I'll probably not die to my enemies next swing. Point being, if I see it, and expect it I will do my best to defend against it, vastly incresing my chance of survival.
On the other hand nobody expects the spanish inquisition a friendly arrow in the back, and as such they are much more likely to get me killed.
Well you are assuming that a) you DID notice the enemy archer and b) your split attention won't put you at a disadvantage against the person fighting you in your face.
This is a tangent, but I actually agree with Torp to a point. If you are a good archer you'll hit the enemy player much more often than your friendly, which would tip the "win %" into your teammate's favor from a 50/50 chance.
I'm certainly not advocating "hey archers fire into melee indiscriminately!" but when I roll an archer gen I shoot into melee all the time and as long as you pick & time your shots appropriately you'll assist far more kills than team deaths.
Pulling this back to topic, it does totally suck when you get bumped/shot by a friendly just when you are about to land a shot on the enemy, or right before you are blocking a swing, but skilled players who are careful and take calculated risks probably should be acting this way... it's the careless/greedy/unskilled friendlies that you should watch out for :)
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Well you are assuming that a) you DID notice the enemy archer and b) your split attention won't put you at a disadvantage against the person fighting you in your face.
This is a tangent, but I actually agree with Torp to a point. If you are a good archer you'll hit the enemy player much more often than your friendly, which would tip the "win %" into your teammate's favor from a 50/50 chance.
I'm certainly not advocating "hey archers fire into melee indiscriminately!" but when I roll an archer gen I shoot into melee all the time and as long as you pick & time your shots appropriately you'll assist far more kills than team deaths.
Pulling this back to topic, it does totally suck when you get bumped/shot by a friendly just when you are about to land a shot on the enemy, or right before you are blocking a swing, but skilled players who are careful and take calculated risks probably should be acting this way... it's the careless/greedy/unskilled friendlies that you should watch out for :)
This is not about statistics
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Dezilagel, I do very often contribute to melee fights with my archer, and truth be told it works as the enemy rarely notices until I fire my second or third arrow or hit him, of which I can then move on to a new target while leaving him heavily distracted or wounded.
There is a difference between shooting into a duel of two nutter 2 hander dancers, and simply donating an arrow or three to help out a melee who is giving you clear firing lanes.
I hate to say it, but more often then not my opponent does not notice me shooting at them until it is too late, and a MasterWorked Warbow shoots an arrow fast enough that if I am anywhere close to my target they don't have time to dodge if already "wrapped up" in a melee. It also helps that my clanmates (as well as members of clans that fight with us often enough) have an unspoken agreement and understanding to step properly in the melee fight to allow us better shots.
Considering more often then not I have been helped more then hindered from an archer helping me out when meleeing, I am ok with people shooting in to help me even if I get hit every now and then, especially when I consider that I have been TKed more often from a melee then a range weapon.
For clarification, Torp is not saying "take potshots and damn the consequences" he is merely saying that opportunistic fire often works if the archer has half a brain and just shoots with care and avoids potshots.
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Maybe a better system would be tk forgiveness/punish system. Like if you get tked you press ! To penalize them if it was inentional, 2 to forgive if it was an accident. Yeah people would probably abuse it, but it would at least let the people who were killed on accident and are nice a chance to forgive you
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Maybe a better system would be tk forgiveness/punish system. Like if you get tked you press ! To penalize them if it was inentional, 2 to forgive if it was an accident. Yeah people would probably abuse it, but it would at least let the people who were killed on accident and are nice a chance to forgive you
Yes, this is done in various games and works correctly.
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Yes, this is done in various games and works correctly.
It's good, but it does not deal with the common situation where you strike back at someone who is repetedly teamhitting you...
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Yes, this is done in various games and works correctly.
Yeah, I can't remeber the game I did this on I think socom 2 on ps2, and it worked well
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It's good, but it does not deal with the common situation where you strike back at someone who is repetedly teamhitting you...
Isn't revenge teamhitting/killing just as much against the rules as intentional teamhitting/killing?
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There is some native servers that got a great solution for this problem.. If you TA you will get the damage instead of the dude you were hitting.
Seems like a fair solution imo
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There is some native servers that got a great solution for this problem.. If you TA you will get the damage instead of the dude you were hitting.
Seems like a fair solution imo
Reflective friendly fire is also in crpg, server admins rarely turn it on though.
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Isn't revenge teamhitting/killing just as much against the rules as intentional teamhitting/killing?
Not revenge, but when someone is assaulting you repetedly you have the choice of either killing him, or letting him kill you (and continue killing your mates). In that situation I do think it should be "ok" to teamkill.
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Not revenge, but when someone is assaulting you repedetly you have the choice of either killing him, or letting him kill you (and continue killing your mates). In that situation I do think it should be "ok" to teamkill.
This mentality is a fast track to get banned.
Revenge TKing is against the rules, and will get you banned.
EDIT: As a former admin, I have to support the rule as is. It can be impossible to tell "who started it" and as much as it sucks getting TKed, it will be much easier for us to ban the individual for TKing you if you do not defend yourself. Otherwise, quite often we don't know who started it and have to ban both of the people as it is a "He-Said She-Said" and it takes time to clear up who actually strted it.
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This mentality is a fast track to get banned.
Revenge TKing is against the rules, and will get you banned.
EDIT: As a former admin, I have to support the rule as is. It can be impossible to tell "who started it" and as much as it sucks getting TKed, it will be much easier for us to ban the individual for TKing you if you do not defend yourself. Otherwise, quite often we don't know who started it and have to ban both of the people as it is a "He-Said She-Said" and it takes time to clear up who actually strted it.
I know, under the current rules I do ofc not strike back, but IF a system was implemented that would allow me to do so - I would do it.
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Not revenge, but when someone is assaulting you repetedly you have the choice of either killing him, or letting him kill you (and continue killing your mates). In that situation I do think it should be "ok" to teamkill.
As much of a pain in the ass as they may be, I have seen people get kicked/banned for revenge friendly fire or killing. Just press I to report it to admins or collect screens/videos and post it in the ban request forums for the appropriate server, and an admin will lay down either a banhammer or warning/lookout for that player to see if they persist. Its much more enjoyable knowing that they will not be on the server to keep it up. Also if they are enough of an asshole they can just screencap you hitting/killing them and post it, and you may be the one getting in trouble! Don't stoop down to their level because they want to be an asshole.
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As much of a pain in the ass as they may be, I have seen people get kicked/banned for revenge friendly fire or killing. Just press I to report it to admins or collect screens/videos and post it in the ban request forums for the appropriate server, and an admin will lay down either a banhammer or warning/lookout for that player to see if they persist. Its much more enjoyable knowing that they will not be on the server to keep it up. Also if they are enough of an asshole they can just screencap you hitting/killing them and post it, and you may be the one getting in trouble! Don't stoop down to their level because they want to be an asshole.
I'll refer to my previous post :)
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Make a poll about it in here.
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Why are so many people against reflective friendly fire? Sure, trolls can jump in front of your attacks, but they can't force you to attack once you notice them. TKers can attack you even if you spend the rest of the round running from them. Reflective friendly fire is significantly more difficult to abuse than the current system. The main reason I see to be against it is if you end up team wounding people on a regular basis. In which case, you should probly be doing something different. Even if you have a strategy of tricking team mates into wounding each other on accident, somebody would still get wounded with reflective friendly fire.
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how bout you tk 3 times and the server kicks u automatically get kicked from server 5 minute ban (regardless of whos at fault learn to control your weapon) each consecutive ban adds 5 minutes (second time is 10 minute ban) 24 hour reset timer
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how bout you tk 3 times and the server kicks u automatically get kicked from server 5 minute ban (regardless of whos at fault learn to control your weapon) each consecutive ban adds 5 minutes (second time is 10 minute ban) 24 hour reset timer
You want to kick somebody, just jump on his weapon!
What i said earlier is that this question has been asked thousand times since january patch, devs make the choice to not implement a penalty on tk.
Why? i guess simply because they didn't find a fair way to do it, and as you know devs try to keep the fairness over everything (otherwise noobs will be powned by lvl 45 plated charger knight, those who play before the patch know what i mean).
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Reflective damage is bad, because even top players hurt team-mates at times and accidents happen... If some top-tier player accidentally hits me, I still don't want to lose round because that top guy got killed from that reflective damage and can't help our team to victory. It's just "np" and things go on. If some jerk is TK:ing a lot, people usually know it and votes will happen.
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Reflective damage is bad, because even top players hurt team-mates at times and accidents happen... If some top-tier player accidentally hits me, I still don't want to lose round because that top guy got killed from that reflective damage and can't help our team to victory. It's just "np" and things go on. If some jerk is TK:ing a lot, people usually know it and votes will happen.
I'm also all for more skilled players to go on living while I take the bullet. But think about this logically. Which is going to happen more often? The highly skilled player accidently hitting a team mate or a team mate accidently hitting a highly skilled player? I'm betting they get accidently TKed (and definitely purposefully TKed) a lot more than vice versa. Even for this situation, reflective friendly fire seems to be advantageous.
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Well reflective damage still means that if someone is hitting teammates till he dies, you can't stop that action at all. If I want to be super annoying TK:er, I would just hunt down best player in my team and he can't hit me back because he damages himself.
And I really don't see THAT much TK stuff going around. Only autoreleases and such at times.
Oh... and I surely would block someone in corner with my horse, or block some corridors and such so no-one can move through it without hurting me (and themselves).
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Well reflective damage still means that if someone is hitting teammates till he dies, you can't stop that action at all. If I want to be super annoying TK:er, I would just hunt down best player in my team and he can't hit me back because he damages himself.
And I really don't see THAT much TK stuff going around. Only autoreleases and such at times.
Oh... and I surely would block someone in corner with my horse, or block some corridors and such so no-one can move through it without hurting me (and themselves).
Why would you care if somebody attacked you till they died? They would mostly just end up dead. Even if you block somebody on a ladder, kicking somebody barely hurts if it hurts at all. Though granted, I don't know if it's possible to kick a horse. But since horses aren't technically on either team, chances are reflective friendly fire would let you kill it without punishment. Don't know how the built in function works though.