cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Gorath on June 13, 2011, 07:17:15 am

Title: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 13, 2011, 07:17:15 am
Full plate + Great maul + ability to manual block = wut do?

Ideally I would LIKE to dodge out of the way so I can continue fighting them, however we all move the same fucking speed all the time.  Coincidentally this speed is slower than a person can spin their mouse/aim in a circle.

When you dev guys get that nifty crpg program that lets you change hardcoded stuff, can we PLEASE have a bound sprint instead of auto-sprint-fail (dunno why they had that idea in M&B as it's terrible design) and/or double tapped dodges.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 13, 2011, 07:24:28 am
sounds like they were dracul enough to go to shopping maul
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Tzar on June 13, 2011, 07:28:51 am
lol someone just got smacked in the head by a great maul and came to the forum and made a whine thread  :lol:

Gorath where you.

A. Asleep when you encountered him  :?:

B. Busy fighten someone else  :?:

C. Holding upward block  :?:

D. Or unable to swing your weapon back at him cause of being in a tight spot  :?:

E. Are you a full STR build lacking ATH  :?:

F. Not aware that backpedal and spam kills any great maul user reason being that is has 68 range and weighs a ton and has 80 attack speed :?:
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 13, 2011, 07:31:12 am
lol someone just got smacked in the head by a great maul and came to the forum and made a whine thread  :lol:

It's not the first time, and it won't be the last until either:
A)  We get some kind of sprint/dodge that works
B)  Crushthroughs don't go through chamber blocks (which is retarded).

In fact this is probably my 1200th or so bitch/moan post about crushthrough weapons since I've been playing M&B.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Malaclypse on June 13, 2011, 08:53:29 am
I'm for getting rid of crush mechanics overruling chamber blocks, that is incredibly lame, agreed.

But why dodge when you can kick?
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Ylca on June 13, 2011, 08:56:58 am
It's not the first time, and it won't be the last until either:
A)  We get some kind of sprint/dodge that works
B)  Crushthroughs don't go through chamber blocks (which is retarded).

In fact this is probably my 1200th or so bitch/moan post about crushthrough weapons since I've been playing M&B.

Why shouldn't crushthrough go through a chamber block. Does it make any sense to block that much weight in any way shape or form?  It's lucky crushthrough is on chance, because honestly getting hit with a maul in any serious capacity would most likely break one's arm or at least cause serious battle-ending injury.

Crush through is the anti-turtle, as a shielder they are my worst nightmare- and that's fine by me.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Lady_Cicilia_Rosewood on June 13, 2011, 02:47:13 pm
It's the movement mechanics of the characters, not much to do unless hardrecoded
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 13, 2011, 11:17:05 pm
...Or just buff the stats of crushthrough weps to make them less gimmicky, but make CT affect shield blocks only. Problem solved.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: zagibu on June 13, 2011, 11:21:56 pm
...Or just buff the stats of crushthrough weps to make them less gimmicky, but make CT affect shield blocks only. Problem solved.

Yeah, because it makes a lot of sense that you can crush through a massive shield, but a whimsical short sword can block you.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Bulzur on June 13, 2011, 11:27:47 pm
Crush through is the anti-turtle, as a shielder they are my worst nightmare- and that's fine by me.

It makes you wonder why there's some weapon such as the axe with strange things called "bonus against shields".  :rolleyes:

Then again, if you remove thoses, it will be a pain to deal with the good blockers, since you just can't hit them, and they're too aware to get kicked. Crushthrough is the one solution when footwork/feinting/chamber blocking doesn't work.
If you make them disapear, the game won't be as interesting.

Oh, and btw, crushthorugh is a 2h, so he gets owned by range. With all the xbows i'm seeing now, i'm sure it's not much of a problem.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Camaris on June 14, 2011, 02:41:23 am
Crushtrough should result in a situation like a kick and not damage you.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Team_Jacob on June 14, 2011, 04:41:49 am
It makes you wonder why there's some weapon such as the axe with strange things called "bonus against shields".  :rolleyes:

Then again, if you remove thoses, it will be a pain to deal with the good blockers, since you just can't hit them, and they're too aware to get kicked. Crushthrough is the one solution when footwork/feinting/chamber blocking doesn't work.
If you make them disapear, the game won't be as interesting.

Oh, and btw, crushthorugh is a 2h, so he gets owned by range. With all the xbows i'm seeing now, i'm sure it's not much of a problem.

Crushthrough is fine, the weapons that have it are slow as hell and require a lot of str. Someone wearing plate and using a crushthrough weapon should be easily destroyed by using good footwork.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Rumblood on June 14, 2011, 04:52:38 am
Why shouldn't crushthrough go through a chamber block. Does it make any sense to block that much weight in any way shape or form?  It's lucky crushthrough is on chance, because honestly getting hit with a maul in any serious capacity would most likely break one's arm or at least cause serious battle-ending injury.

Because it shouldn't. Nobody is going to try to block a huge weapon. There is no need to do so. All you have to do is deflect the arc of the swing to the side and let it crushthrough right into the ground. When fighting a bigger opponent charging me, I don't try to lock horns and stop their attack. I sidestep and push into their momentum with a little trip to help them to the ground. A block is the equivalent of trying to take the brunt of an attack. A chamber is the equivalent of changing the attack vector enough to be brushed aside. You don't have to stop that crushing blow when deflecting its angle of attack is just as effective. A chamber takes more skill, and is therefore exactly in line with what it would take.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 14, 2011, 06:12:42 am
Crushthrough is fine, the weapons that have it are slow as hell and require a lot of str. Someone wearing plate and using a crushthrough weapon should be easily destroyed by using good footwork.

Except if the crushthrough user can block ONCE when within range to counter attack.  Sorry but characters, unless 8+ athletics ZERO armor gimmick builds cannot move and strafe faster than you can spin your mouse to track them.

This is of course barring the castor swing trick in order to break the attack/block/attack timing paradigm of the game.

Quote
Then again, if you remove thoses, it will be a pain to deal with the good blockers, since you just can't hit them, and they're too aware to get kicked. Crushthrough is the one solution when footwork/feinting/chamber blocking doesn't work. 

This is a pretty lame argument for crush through mechanics.  It essentially boils down to "Crutch-through is the one thing I can do to render my opponents RMB and skill useless".
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Rumblood on June 14, 2011, 07:11:30 am
I agree with you on this one Gorath. One thing that would fix this and lolthrusts is for spin to be disabled during the animation for thrusts and overhands. They can still spin and thrust, but once they release that left mouse button, they are committed to that direction (same for overhands)
That would of course change the gameplay drastically, and perhaps not for the better.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Kafein on June 14, 2011, 07:52:50 am
F. Not aware that backpedal and spam kills any great maul user reason being that is has 68 range and weighs a ton and has 80 attack speed :?:

I've yet to see any decent mauler guy fall for this trick.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 14, 2011, 08:20:20 am
I've yet to see any decent mauler guy fall for this trick.

Yeah, I think Tzar is just trolling tbh.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: zagibu on June 14, 2011, 11:28:33 am
Maybe don't disable rotation completely after a swing has been released, but restrict it to some 30° or something.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Cup1d on June 14, 2011, 12:48:43 pm
Full plate + Great maul + ability to manual block = wut do?

Call for friendly ranged, if you can't handle it yourself.
Also it called - «Balance» and «Teamplay»... yea, funny wordz

And this «Call for friendly ranged» is answer for other «wut do?»
Open field + HA = wut do?
Open field + armored horse + couching lancer = wut do?
Town map + Roof + xbowman\archer = wut do?
Siege map + Ladder + Flanking archers = wut do?

And many other «wut do?»
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on June 14, 2011, 02:33:41 pm
All weapons should have a chance of crushthrough based on their weight, speed/physics effects, the wielder's str, the blocking weapon's weight, and the foe's str. Most of the time, weapons would not crushthtrough, and blocking would go as normally, but a great bardiche against a short sword would not go well for the swordman. Also, thrusting a lance/spear from horseback would often go through an opposing downblock due to the speed/force behind the thrust.

A complementary idea would be if simply clicking attack/block was less powerful/resistant than holding the button longer. This, way the players would have more control over the prevention of crushthrough, or its execution.

The great maul should perhaps be limited to overhead swings, although that is a bit extreme
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gurnisson on June 14, 2011, 04:15:40 pm
All weapons should have a chance of crushthrough based on their weight, speed/physics effects, the wielder's str, the blocking weapon's weight, and the foe's str. Most of the time, weapons would not crushthtrough, and blocking would go as normally, but a great bardiche against a short sword would not go well for the swordman. Also, thrusting a lance/spear from horseback would often go through an opposing downblock due to the speed/force behind the thrust.

A complementary idea would be if simply clicking attack/block was less powerful/resistant than holding the button longer. This, way the players would have more control over the prevention of crushthrough, or its execution.

The great maul should perhaps be limited to overhead swings, although that is a bit extreme

Would destroy the fun of melee combat.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 14, 2011, 04:49:38 pm
lol   :rolleyes:

Yeah, nerf blocking and chambering.  How dare people crutch on SKILL.

ffs.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Tzar on June 14, 2011, 05:02:10 pm
lol   :rolleyes:

Yeah, nerf blocking and chambering.  How dare people crutch on SKILL.

ffs.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on June 14, 2011, 05:04:38 pm
Would destroy the fun of melee combat.

Why? Did I say blocking no longer works? NO. Plus, I even suggested a way that crushthrough can be countered, by holding a block down, instead of clicking it.

This naturally makes sense. Quick, light weapons will basically never crushthrough, so only have to be blocked by a tap. Slow, heavy weapons will often crushthrough lighter weapons and weak opponents, but this can be prevented to some extent by a firmer block.

The fun of melee combat is destroyed for me when people are able to block unrealistically.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on June 14, 2011, 05:13:11 pm
This could be a good idea, but i don't even imagine how it would be hard to shoot a guy that constently dodge, it's hard when ppl zig-zag so it would be impossible with dodge.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on June 14, 2011, 05:59:49 pm
This could be a good idea, but i don't even imagine how it would be hard to shoot a guy that constently dodge, it's hard when ppl zig-zag so it would be impossible with dodge.

Make zig zagging/direction switching harder. Backpeddling and strafing are too easy/fast
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gurnisson on June 14, 2011, 08:31:15 pm
Yeah, nerf blocking and chambering.  How dare people crutch on SKILL.

That's why. You shouldn't be hit by strikes that you block, even if you do have a smaller weapon. A smaller weapon have enough disadvantages when it comes to large weapons. Why make it worse? If you're skilled at manual blocking, why should you still suffer for it, just for not getting the great long bardiche or similar huge weapons?

I see your point regarding the realism, but as I've always said, gameplay over realism any day of the week. And, yes, it would hurt gameplay.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 09:31:35 pm
Crushtrough should result in a situation like a kick and not damage you.

I like this idea! It doesn't kill the crush-through weapons, and its not overpowered either. Good thinking.


Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Malaclypse on June 14, 2011, 11:28:55 pm
Stock photo

Please add something relevant to the conversation or otherwise dispute the points posited therein instead of posting stuff from your /b/ folder all the time.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Native_ATS on June 15, 2011, 02:15:11 am
Full plate + Great maul + ability to manual block = wut do?

Ideally I would LIKE to dodge out of the way so I can continue fighting them, however we all move the same fucking speed all the time.  Coincidentally this speed is slower than a person can spin their mouse/aim in a circle.

When you dev guys get that nifty crpg program that lets you change hardcoded stuff, can we PLEASE have a bound sprint instead of auto-sprint-fail (dunno why they had that idea in M&B as it's terrible design) and/or double tapped dodges.
you told me once that you can head shot people so easy with war darts... just head shot him.  :lol:
but rolling or jumping might get lame really fast
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: zagibu on June 15, 2011, 02:26:02 am
Rolling, o please god no...
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 15, 2011, 07:28:29 am
you told me once that you can head shot people so easy with war darts... just head shot him.  :lol:
If I was playing talking about ranged combat this would apply.  However I pretty much assumed that the melee combat part of the post was implied.  Derp.
but rolling or jumping might get lame really fast

Not really talking about rolling or jumping.  Talking about lunges/withdraws mostly.  HOWEVER if I had my way we would have a complex double tapped system along with a working stamina system, crouching, shift-sprinting + variable modifiers for sprinting (sprint + crouch = slide.  sprint + jump = dive.  etc), an off-hand key + variables (for shield bashing, grappling, using a weapon in off hand to parry/attack such as side sword + long dagger, etc).

One can dream after all.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Team_Jacob on June 15, 2011, 07:42:47 am
Sorry gorath, but you are obsessed with realism so we can't have people rolling around in armor unless you want to make it so that every time you roll, a piece of your armor gets stuck in the ground or get's stuck in the wrong position and possibly comes off.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 15, 2011, 08:01:13 am
Sorry gorath, but you are obsessed with realism so we can't have people rolling around in armor unless you want to make it so that every time you roll, a piece of your armor gets stuck in the ground or get's stuck in the wrong position and possibly comes off.

Too bad you don't know realism because it was quite possible to cartwheel and somersault (aka: rolling) in plate armor.  Go read a book before typing please.  Hell, I'd even settle for internet studying at this point.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Team_Jacob on June 15, 2011, 08:08:32 am
Too bad you are like a child and think you know everything because it was quite possible to cartwheel and somersault (aka: rolling) in plate armor and get your shit, like articulating pieces (go read wikipedia or a book if you want all of them, because I don't want to list them), stuck and tangled on themselves and other shit. They even made weapons to abuse the articulating pieces of plate armor.  Go get some intelligence before typing please.  Hell, I'd even settle for DeVry at this point.

Fixed.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 15, 2011, 08:16:36 am
Broken, though I'm going to claim fixed even though there's many videos and even produced documentaries about medieval arms/armor that disprove your "pieces getting stuck" bullshit theory.

At this point I'd settle for something other than a flaming pile every time you post.  Even a runny pile would be a nice change of pace.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Team_Jacob on June 15, 2011, 08:30:10 am
At this point I'd settle for something other than a flaming pile every time you post.  Even a runny pile would be a nice change of pace.

Unlike you, I have seen many versions of plate and have actually had the chance to wear a reproduction. I can tell you that yes, you can get up off your ass fairly easily if you get knocked down, which is contrary to what a lot of people would think. As for rolling and cartwheeling, hell no. There's a chance that I will lose my weapon and there's a chance that I may injure myself with my weapon. All of the loose bits that cover vulnerable areas like the armpit and other articulating areas like the elbow and pauldrons have fairly large areas where they can easily get caught on something in the ground or on themselves. Not to mention that there's no way I would want to be rolling on uneven terrain, especially a dive roll like you are talking.

At this point I realize that you are completely devoid of anything resembling intelligence and will just leave you to wallow in your stupidity. Reading your posts amused me at first, but now it's just banal.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 15, 2011, 08:35:29 am
blah blah blah I'm an idiot blah blah blah

 As for rolling and cartwheeling, hell no.

blah blah I'm a moron blah blah

Yup, you're full of shit.

Btw, cartwheeling in plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg

Oh, and rolling/somersaulting in plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kKLgSTkCEo&feature=related

You're a fucking tard every which way you slice it.  Go to bed boy.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: [ptx] on June 15, 2011, 08:48:01 am
On my shielder alt i practically never have had much trouble with great mauls. I can either backpedal/spam, simply spam or, if they are agi-heavy build - block them or suffer only minor damage from CT.
Really, most of the time a mauler doesn't stand a chance against a competent shielder. They rape pikemen and such, though.
Actually, maulers seem like a support class to me.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Team_Jacob on June 15, 2011, 08:49:40 am
Yup, you're full of shit.

Btw, cartwheeling in plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg

Oh, and rolling/somersaulting in plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kKLgSTkCEo&feature=related

You're a fucking tard every which way you slice it.  Go to bed boy.

First video, the guy doesn't have a weapon, nor a helmet, and still has issues doing a cartwheel. You can also see, near the middle of the video, one of his buddies putting one of the thigh pieces back on.

Second video, again, no weapon. He is also wearing the smallest breastplate I have ever seen and it still takes him quite a while to complete a roll because he cannot get the sufficient forward momentum to complete the roll without a running start.

Show me a guy with a polearm, wearing full plate, doing a quick roll/cartwheel "dodge".
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Vibe on June 15, 2011, 09:54:30 am
Oh, and rolling/somersaulting in plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kKLgSTkCEo&feature=related

Lol where the hell did they film this, it looks like Tibet
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Tzar on June 15, 2011, 11:00:48 am
Lol where the hell did they film this, it looks like Tibet

Thats in Goraths backyard at Castle BullshitStein
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Lady_Cicilia_Rosewood on June 15, 2011, 12:17:36 pm
You're looking for excuses jacob. Any damage you claim it does to armour is complete circumstancial, as a matter of fact....only the Milanese plate could have that kind result. That is, if it's poorly constructed.

But the point is, I dont think it's possible to have the dodging mechanics with current hardcoding.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Diomedes on June 15, 2011, 02:34:43 pm
Crushthrough only ever breaks my block when it's an overhead (is this normal?  I dunno).  If this is standard then there's already the possibility of dodging left, right, and backward.  Also, as an unbalanced weapon, most crushthrough have a period in their swing during which they can no longer block and must continue their swing till the end.  I find this is the best time to hit them, or during by aggressive over-feinting.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Casimir on June 15, 2011, 02:48:44 pm
can you just imagine half your team rolling towards the battlefield, i can, it would be stupid.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: zagibu on June 15, 2011, 03:01:15 pm
can you just imagine half your team rolling towards the battlefield, i can, it would be stupid.

Hahaha, this would almost be a reason to actually implement it! A rolling army of tincans...hilarious.
Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: Gorath on June 15, 2011, 03:24:23 pm
can you just imagine half your team rolling towards the battlefield, i can, it would be stupid.

Why the fuck does everyone get caught up on this idea of rolling around like a ball?  When did I ever say that we should have rolling?  In fact I already clarified this:
Quote from: Gorath
Not really talking about rolling or jumping.  Talking about lunges/withdraws mostly.

lol, bring up double tapped dodging and suddenly everyone thinks immediately to doing gymnastics across the field.  I think you all watch too much cirque de solei or something.   :rolleyes:

Title: Re: PLEASE can we have some kind of dodging?
Post by: ArchonAlarion on June 15, 2011, 05:53:05 pm
I think you all watch too much cirque de solei or something.   :rolleyes:

They whack off to it probably.