cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Keshian on June 03, 2011, 04:41:34 am
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Riding currently gives a much bigger boost than athletics ever since athletics was nerfed in January patch. So while 8 athletics might make you walk fast (never run), 8 riding will make your horse go from gallop to impossible warp speed (never trot). Just make the percentage boost the same (also with maneuverability) and this will help the blance a lot with movement speed differences and the benefits it brings.
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In theory, this sounds fair, but as I don't play cavalry I really have no idea. :|
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In theory, this sounds fair, but as I don't play cavalry I really have no idea. :|
I play cavalry and I can confirm almost nothing was done to balance the doubled riding skill points everyone got when the attribute requirement for it went from 6 to 3. Before January, you needed 18 agi to have 3 riding, and you could ride a tier 3 horse with that. No wonder there weren't JetPonies back then. Even the effect of 1 more riding skill is easy to notice. It's hardly the case for athletics.
I'm all for reducing speed and maneuver of horses, to increase the skill factor of this class. Currently it's too easy to go somewhere at full speed without caring because you know you can make an insta u-turn if you suddenly see a pike popping 5 meters ahead of you.
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I don't actually see much of a problem here, higher riding for me always meant a little extra (but still almost negligible) speed boost, but I always did it for the maneuver since I ride a courser. Besides, the small extra speed helps sometimes when I'm trying to catch those other pesky courser riders. And 8 riding is really out there, I can't think of any serious build that incorporates 8 riding. While I probably wouldn't notice a speed bonus reduction for the extra riding, I'd rather athletics be returned to its former glory since apparently thats what youre seething about.
And kafein, I don't know about you but I ride a courser and I rarely go anywhere full speed anymore because pikes screw me up ALL the time
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I don't actually see much of a problem here, higher riding for me always meant a little extra (but still almost negligible) speed boost, but I always did it for the maneuver since I ride a courser. Besides, the small extra speed helps sometimes when I'm trying to catch those other pesky courser riders. And 8 riding is really out there, I can't think of any serious build that incorporates 8 riding. While I probably wouldn't notice a speed bonus reduction for the extra riding, I'd rather athletics be returned to its former glory since apparently thats what youre seething about.
And kafein, I don't know about you but I ride a courser and I rarely go anywhere full speed anymore because pikes screw me up ALL the time
8 riding can easily be part of a 12/24 HA build. And on the last part, maybe you have trouble with pikes, but the point is that many lancers can just avoid them. The courser is not the best horse for this, it's the Arabian Undead-Gray JetPony.
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It shouldn't add speed at all, I mean, why should a horse run faster with a more skilled rider? Maybe accelerate faster, but not higher top speed. Maneouverability increase is alright, though, although maybe too excessive ATM.
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It shouldn't add speed at all, I mean, why should a horse run faster with a more skilled rider? Maybe accelerate faster, but not higher top speed. Maneouverability increase is alright, though, although maybe too excessive ATM.
I agree with this.
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Aye my Cav alt agree lol..
But for god sake dont increase the agi needs for riding it was horrible back when we needed to have 1 billion agi points per riding skill :rolleyes:
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What is the athletic nerf from January? I'm curious.
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It shouldn't add speed at all, I mean, why should a horse run faster with a more skilled rider?
The rider is paddling faster if he is skilled.
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Only cRPG horses are more like this:
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The rider is paddling faster if he is skilled.
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Only cRPG horses are more like this:
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Nice picture. Lol.
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What is the athletic nerf from January? I'm curious.
There wasn't. Everything just feels slower, like game speed slowed down.
Also, kesh had 14 athletics prior to the big patch.
Also, the speed difference between cav and infantry changed, since cav has higher riding skill now, making them much faster than before, even after some speed nerfs.
Basically, infantry are slower compared to cav NOW than before. He used to run around sumpter speed. Which you can in real life, so that makes sense.
Now even on a gimmick 3/39 build you can't come close to a sumpter.
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Riding points are noticeable but not as huge as you are making them out to be. Everything would be fine if your previous suggestion to make the deviation in the horses speed tighter, bringing the arab/courser down some and slower horses like warhorses up some.
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lol keshian i dreamed of that problem this night and had same idea, just wanted to post it as i saw this threat...
+1 for that it just makes sense
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makes sence. Wanted to vote yes, but I hate these polls with implemented opinions.
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I agree. But i won't vote since i really don't like thoses kind of polls that are useless anyway.
I don't know if it's really possible to lower the effect of riding, or to increase the effect of athletics.
And we can all agree that having 5 ath is enough, even with a 24 agi build, whereas for riding, it's always interesting to have more. I hate having 7 athletics, medium armor, and not be able to catch up with an archer with 5 ath who stops me back to normal speed everytime he shoots. And even when he missed, i can't really catch him that fast.
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A tip for the future: If you feel like making a poll and want developers to take it serious, at least 'try' to put up non-biased answer choices.
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Riding currently gives a much bigger boost than athletics ever since athletics was nerfed in January patch. So while 8 athletics might make you walk fast (never run), 8 riding will make your horse go from gallop to impossible warp speed (never trot). Just make the percentage boost the same (also with maneuverability) and this will help the blance a lot with movement speed differences and the benefits it brings.
wanst that the reason why all the horses got -2 speed -2 maneuvrability back than ?
really you and a couple of other people just keep whining and whining, and all the good ideas are lost in the sea of your tears
i think you should create a group with a cool sounding name like "Hardcore anti-four legs league", than you kafein seawind and others could make a brainstorm and come up with ever more whining threads and more creative ways to reach your goal
dont get me wrong you guys are doing excellent job, we got a pike with 300 reach that enables you to attack trough teammates and walls, can you ask for more ? of course you can!
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And here comes GK, defending the horses for the sake of... defending their playstyle. :rolleyes:
Edit : You don't need to try fixing anything Torp, you'll just fail. And i did say the poll was stupid and useless, no point there either.
Edit n2 : Yeah, i won't mind. Just saying that it's not because it already got nerfed that it doesn't need another one. Or a fix. ;)
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And here comes GK, defending the horses for the sake of... defending their playstyle balance. :rolleyes:
fixed - take a look at the poll
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And here comes GK, defending the horses for the sake of... defending their playstyle. :rolleyes:
Edit : You don't need to try fixing anything Torp, you'll just fail. And i did say the poll was stupid and useless, no point there either.
i stopped defending it a while back, as writing here changes very little if anything, and devs will do what they think is good for the balance, even if i dont agree with some changes i really dont think writing here will help
for me horses can be nerfed to shit and i wont really care, and when they are i dont think the whine will stop, well maybe if they are slower than inf
and i just posted here, to show the whining bunch that got no memory about the changes obviously, and they look like they are posting for the sake of nerfing playstyle they dont like (in before "im a cav i want it nerfed")
carry on, dont mind me ;]
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I play cavalry and I can confirm almost nothing was done to balance the doubled riding skill points everyone got when the attribute requirement for it went from 6 to 3. Before January, you needed 18 agi to have 3 riding, and you could ride a tier 3 horse with that. No wonder there weren't JetPonies back then. Even the effect of 1 more riding skill is easy to notice. It's hardly the case for athletics.
This is false, the speed and maneuver of all horses was reduced to compensate for the additional points in riding.
I think a lot of you are severely underestimating the capabilities of a horse.
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I personnaly think horses are good enough the way they are but the fact that the speed of some *cough courser cough* let them get you before you can even hear it coming is somewhat game/fun breaking. Im an ex cav but yeah, i dont think donkey team can really change the sound system failure of horses :$ right now even with 3d headset i cant know from where a cav is closing on me...
Edit: can they make it louder for example or would it be possible to fix the 3D sound so that we can hear where its coming from? Or am i asking too much donkey team? :S
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Edit : You don't need to try fixing anything Torp, you'll just fail. And i did say the poll was stupid and useless, no point there either.
i am not talking about the poll in this thread (agreed; utterly useless), i am talking about the 'official poll about what items need nerf and buff' poll - as i pointed out earlier, there are very few people who actually think horses should be nerfed - those who do just say it again and again so it feels like alot
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as a lancer, most of my damage comes from the speed bonus.
If i see a target, I am lucky if i can make one pass without getting damaged, if i have to stab him 3 times and take forever to ride away i am fucked.
Low Armor horses need their speed to do damage and avoid damage.
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as a lancer, most of my damage comes from the speed bonus.
If i see a target, I am lucky if i can make one pass without getting damaged, if i have to stab him 3 times and take forever to ride away i am fucked.
Low Armor horses need their speed to do damage and avoid damage.
Are you not using the heavy lance?? Most cav players I know can run roughshod through teams (no need for being sneaky) because they outrange all but pikes and long spears. They tend to ride just to left or right out of their range while 1-hit stabbing at a 90 degree angle with their lance. Seems quite effective with little risk. Also, what is your powerstrike? 6 powerstrike is usually enought to 1-2 shot skill with a lance's pierce damage with evena minimal speed bonus. Cav don't really need to be all that sneaky nowadays, its really hard to take down there horse as ranged and with good to high maneuverability they can easily avoid pikemen.
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as a lancer, most of my damage comes from the speed bonus.
If i see a target, I am lucky if i can make one pass without getting damaged, if i have to stab him 3 times and take forever to ride away i am fucked.
Low Armor horses need their speed to do damage and avoid damage.
Agreed.
Most cav has 5-6 PD. It allows to onehit people into HEAD, which is quite difficult (torso is much bigger than a head). So it's 2 or 3 hits. On low speed the damage is even lower. So i strongly disagree with nerfing the riding skill. It's not that fast - i could use more speed (honestly). And speed has it drawbacks too - a simple slash to my legs when i ride at 80-90% speed makes me lose like 50-60% HP.
Why do you want to buff athletics? You don't really want to outrun a horse, do you? :lol: Or you've got not enough fleeing archers and backshooting? :rolleyes:
P.S. There are hardly any jetponies - the fastest is courser and every other horse has a speed ranging from 42-44 (mid tier), which isn't fast even with 7 riding. Though champion courser has a 50 speed, which is quite fast - but that's not our issue, it's about heirlooming stats.
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Agreed.
Most cav has 5-6 PD. It allows to onehit people into HEAD, which is quite difficult (torso is much bigger than a head). So it's 2 or 3 hits. On low speed the damage is even lower. So i strongly disagree with nerfing the riding skill. It's not that fast - i could use more speed (honestly). And speed has it drawbacks too - a simple slash to my legs when i ride at 80-90% speed makes me lose like 50-60% HP.
Why do you want to buff athletics? You don't really want to outrun a horse, do you? :lol: Or you've got not enough fleeing archers and backshooting? :rolleyes:
P.S. There are hardly any jetponies - the fastest is courser and every other horse has a speed ranging from 42-44 (mid tier), which isn't fast even with 7 riding. Though champion courser has a 50 speed, which is quite fast - but that's not our issue, it's about heirlooming stats.
40+ speed sin't fast, but 50 is, lol, you are talking about 5-8% difference in speed. of course this gets vastly multpiplied by the riding bonus, whicha dds dramatically to both speed and maneuver. Most unarmored horses are at least 8x faster than infantry with a similar difference in acceleration rate.
One of the main issues is that its not only a higher percentage boost, but its also a much higher base speed and acceleration that is getting boosted by riding skill, so after 3-4 athletics compared to 3-4 riding it really starts getting ridiculously different rates of speed.
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Hm... what about this - athletics makes you faster free of charge (only skill points are spent). Riding by itself doesn't make you faster - you need to buy a horse and to pay upkeep for it :mrgreen:
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Hm... what about this - athletics makes you faster free of charge (only skill points are spent). Riding by itself doesn't make you faster - you need to buy a horse and to pay upkeep for it :mrgreen:
Ah ha, what about this: your armor slows you down, rain slows you down, longer weapons equipped slows you down, but nothing slows you down when riding.
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Not true - rains slow down horses too. And infantry can walk on stairs and roofs and ladders, while horses can't. Oh, and wpf reduction is still here.
I just can't get why do you want to make infantry faster? You can't outrun a horse, by no means you can. Dodging horse charge is pretty easy now (unless it's a arabian horse). Cavalry always had an advantage over footmen on open space - what's wrong? Horses are the most expensive items in crpg now, so i think it's pretty balanced.
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Not true - rains slow down horses too. And infantry can walk on stairs and roofs and ladders, while horses can't. Oh, and wpf reduction is still here.
I just can't get why do you want to make infantry faster? You can't outrun a horse, by no means you can. Dodging horse charge is pretty easy now (unless it's a arabian horse). Cavalry always had an advantage over footmen on open space - what's wrong? Horses are the most expensive items in crpg now, so i think it's pretty balanced.
Depends on the satirs and ladders, lol.
Easy to dodge, most people can downblock (which is useless against a couch or if you are ranged doesn't even exist, shots takes so long to draw back and fire and horses so fast hardly ever have time to switch to melee weapon), but since Janaury buff (3 agility per riding, everyone else had lower athletics from the level 30 cap), very few people can consistently dodge a lance of an average cav player (people that do dodge lances are because the cav player is pretty bad at lancing).
Just swoop left to right or vice vers and he huge hitbox will easily pick anyone up unless they have 12 athletics. Footmen have almost no time to dodge left or right anyway as horses move so fast that they are on top of them before the acceleration kicks in (that was another big nerf in january where you didn't just run fast as you were capable of given your weight and athletics, now you have a pretty serious acceleration phase that takes forever to get you moving at a decent speed, which makes dodging far more difficult).
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Depends on the satirs and ladders, lol.
Easy to dodge, most people can downblock (which is useless against a couch or if you are ranged doesn't even exist, shots takes so long to draw back and fire and horses so fast hardly ever have time to switch to melee weapon), but since Janaury buff (3 agility per riding, everyone else had lower athletics from the level 30 cap), very few people can consistently dodge a lance of an average cav player (people that do dodge lances are because the cav player is pretty bad at lancing).
Just swoop left to right or vice vers and he huge hitbox will easily pick anyone up unless they have 12 athletics. Footmen have almost no time to dodge left or right anyway as horses move so fast that they are on top of them before the acceleration kicks in (that was another big nerf in january where you didn't just run fast as you were capable of given your weight and athletics, now you have a pretty serious acceleration phase that takes forever to get you moving at a decent speed, which makes dodging far more difficult).
completely untrue. average cav lancer prob takes 5+ passes to kill 1 person, thats including passes where the target is UNAWARE of the cav. where as average shmo archer or 2h'er easily kills those cav foolish enough to fight them head on, its complete no contest. the only cav that get kills head on are the above average ones fighting below average infantry
you're living in a dream world & clearly you have some sort of hatred toward cav. the average cav player doesnt even come close to the average amount of kills by medium or heavy infantry, especially since so many maps are horrible for horses.
you seem to think every cav player is on par with spainard, huey newton or tommybyfire, which is clearly not the case.
arab and courser need to be nerfed and more expensive, thats how you fix cav, not raping the rest of the hardly ever used horses.
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He's got a point. It's far from truth that every cav. player make 30-1 per map. On EU i can call few names - Leed, Oda_Ujin, some T's guys maybe, some GKs. Average horseman (like me) gets about 2:1 kd or even lower (usually it's around 6-7:3). My total k/d ratio is 1.23, which is far from being big :mrgreen:
Sometimes, SOMETIMES (very rare) i indeed get like 20:4 or even 30:5-6, but it's not worth mentioning - it happened like 3 or 4 times. Ofc it was on random plains map with few hills. While super pro players like Leed (lol he's real beast with MW HLance and CHMP courser) gets 20+ kills per map every map.
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completely untrue. average cav lancer prob takes 5+ passes to kill 1 person, thats including passes where the target is UNAWARE of the cav.
That might be an exaggeration...
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Not all passes are complemented with attacks and hits. 3 hits at most. 4-5 at low speed.
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That might be an exaggeration...
Believe it or not, archers that don't stand still dodge my lance frequently, and I'm using a heavy lance with a courser. Even on low speed passes, archers can fake me out and get off with an almost harmless bump or nothing at all. If they're not using a longbow then my horse either moves on or dies. Of course if the archer is using a longbow and I charge him head on then my horse is probably dead.
And anyone who plays with me frequently knows how often my horse dies to arrow fire now that shot speed is back to laser mode for archers.
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And anyone who plays with me frequently knows how often my horse dies to arrow fire now that shot speed is back to laser mode for archers.
That may be more to the fact that you are a high priority target from your clan tag, and now have demonstrated enough of a threat that archers make you out for a priority target from player skill too. From our end, we have multiple misses unless we catch you on a dedicated attack run.
If I go Cav hunting, I waste a lot of shots even with laser mode.
I do play with you frequently, and I do make you out to be a priority target as I don't go peasant hunting (that is easier and more efficient for the melee characters to do). How does it feel to be loved? :lol:
You do bring up good points though.
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That may be more to the fact that you are a high priority target from your clan tag, and now have demonstrated enough of a threat that archers make you out for a priority target from player skill too. From our end, we have multiple misses unless we catch you on a dedicated attack run.
If I go Cav hunting, I waste a lot of shots even with laser mode.
I do play with you frequently, and I do make you out to be a priority target as I don't go peasant hunting (that is easier and more efficient for the melee characters to do). How does it feel to be loved? :lol:
You do bring up good points though.
It feels like Darkkarma's steel bolt lodged in my cranial cavity and a few arrows in my courser's ass. The love is often returned though :twisted:
After the first round of each game I usually hide from enemy archers as they tend to quickly develop an acute awareness of cavalry. I suppose general ranged horse killing is slightly distorted in my mind because my infantry characters use a xbow or throwing. It just astounds and sometimes pleases me that pub ranged characters rarely realize the importance of horse killing until they're dead.
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I have no problem with horse speed.. its just their ability to make sharp turns and slow or speed up unrealistically fast.
A galloping horse should be like a dive bomber
Swoop by
Stab
Continue out and take the time to make another run
not like the current bumper car strategy
- Swoop by / Stab / Turn around / stab / Run into a wall / Swoop by / Stab / 90 degree turn / Stab / see a pike in ur way / 90 degree turn
The ability of horses to rapidly charge directions and speed makes them able to go 0 to 60 in less than 15 feet
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And kafein, I don't know about you but I ride a courser and I rarely go anywhere full speed anymore because pikes screw me up ALL the time
Courser maneuver is so terrible I usually end up slamming right into the pikes.
Just swoop left to right or vice vers and he huge hitbox will easily pick anyone up unless they have 12 athletics. Footmen have almost no time to dodge left or right anyway as horses move so fast that they are on top of them before the acceleration kicks in (that was another big nerf in january where you didn't just run fast as you were capable of given your weight and athletics, now you have a pretty serious acceleration phase that takes forever to get you moving at a decent speed, which makes dodging far more difficult).
With the new lances, you cant really couch sideways very well, nor swing your lance back and forth quickly enough. I usually get 1shotted by some average footman who jumps ever so slightly out of my reach and stabs my horse. If you mean stabbing with a lance, I try to avoid doing that.
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yeh just my thoughts above. Cant give an unbiased opinion as cav is the only class that i havent played through a gen with
again i think speed is fine but the acceleration (going to full gallop in 10 yards) needs some fixing. It currently is easy to recover from otherwise MAJOR fuckups (IE hit a wall at 35 mph or get reared by a polearm)
another thought (again somewhat biased) is the health on coursers. For a horse of it's speed it really takes a lot of damage
as it stands the only unarmoured horse more durable than it is the destrier
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yeh just my thoughts above. Cant give an unbiased opinion as cav is the only class that i havent played through a gen with
again i think speed is fine but the acceleration (going to full gallop in 10 yards) needs some fixing. It currently is easy to recover from otherwise MAJOR fuckups (IE hit a wall at 35 mph or get reared by a polearm)
What youre referring to is high maneuver, that controls cav proficiency in accelerating/decelerating and making turns. I also recognize that high maneuver horses are problematic, even though they have been nerfed time and again in the past so that theyre slow and very fragile. Dodging everything on the battlefield is too easy with an arabian warhorse
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Personally I feel the courser should have its armour dropped from 18 to 15 or so. As it stands fairly robust considering how its supposed to be a hit and run sorta horse.
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i dont care about horses... i just want there to be a noticeable difference for each point you put into athletics. i had a guy with one handed axe who was consistently hitting me in the back whenever i would leave him behind to kill an archer... he had medium armour and 4 athletics compared to my gambeson and 8 athletics. if i get out of his swing range and start running... there is no way he should be able to catch up and hit me, but he did... 3 times.
ive chased guys with about the same weight as me, who had 7 athletics... it takes forever for me to catch them... each point of athletics is so damn minor... make them mean more!
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i dont care about horses... i just want there to be a noticeable difference for each point you put into athletics. i had a guy with one handed axe who was consistently hitting me in the back whenever i would leave him behind to kill an archer... he had medium armour and 4 athletics compared to my gambeson and 8 athletics. if i get out of his swing range and start running... there is no way he should be able to catch up and hit me, but he did... 3 times.
ive chased guys with about the same weight as me, who had 7 athletics... it takes forever for me to catch them... each point of athletics is so damn minor... make them mean more!
Thats kinda ironic matey seeing as how you use nothing but a short 1h and a huscarl.
But yeah, this. And then evading and dealing with cavalry will be more of a problem of how heavy or light your build is. I mustve said this at least a dozen times before but archers jump clear out of the way of my horse and lance all the time, and this is with nerfed athletics. With unnerfed athletics and some armor, infantry can do the same