cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: HeroZero on January 09, 2011, 10:45:26 pm
-
Let me get this out of the way first. I love this mod and furthermore the game that provides this mod's core gameplay. I think that both patches brought a lot of good along with the expected patch day stutters.
That's only loosely what this topic is about.
This topic is about the grind. The funny thing about grind is that it walks a very fine line between fun and engaging and absolutely soul crushing. Without grind the game will get boring and lose its flavor quickly as people reach their respective maxes. The game in this patch is now reaching its later days and players hitting the softcap of 30 are becoming more and more common, and with this comes a certain lethargy. Without retiring, and its benefits, what more is to do? Run around and destroy peasants? That's fun for an afternoon, but then it grows stale.
The grind is a necessary part of RPGish game, it births and maintains an attachment to the character that you've built with your own hands, with your time, with your skills. Without it, it might as well be Native, with too much we might as well play some Korean MMO with a cashshop and 6mil exp levels.
Bring back retirement soon, I can already see numbers in the NA servers dwindling.
-
and theres the problem. Is it more of an RPG or more of a Slasher??? what do WE want?? what does chadz want it to be?? its rly hard to say, I got feeling that some aspects of the mod went more in direction of slash game, and i mean the 30lvl soft cap, easy lvling and cheap equip for everyone policy, but on the other hand upkeep thing made it a bit more RPGish than before. But thats the problem, we go either full rpg or full slash native like gameplay, cose being in between is never good.
-
Without retiring, and its benefits, what more is to do? Run around and destroy peasants?
/facepalm
How about fight people your own level and gear, hone your skills, try to push the tide of victory into your teams favor, challenge that tin can with the 2her spamming away and see if you can bring him down, challenge yourself with less armor and a lower tier weapon vs the enemies... You know, actually fight and play the game? If all you can think of is crushing peasants then it kind of shows what your overall goal in the game was to begin with. Personally I'd rather look for the specific names out there of good players and try to take them out.
-
Well, what I'm experiencing is a huge inflation. In previous version i hardly grinded for my next retirement, but now...
-
I don't understand why there needs to constantly be something to "work" towards... the act of playing the game should be it. If playing isn't fun in itself, then something is wrong.
-
I don't understand why there needs to constantly be something to "work" towards... the act of playing the game should be it. If playing isn't fun in itself, then something is wrong.
Having something to work for is exactly what separates this mod from native. It's what keeps games fun for a long time.
-
Having something to work for is exactly what separates this mod from native. It's what keeps games fun for a long time.
I fundamentally disagree with you.
What makes this mod fun is customization, it is why we came here. You get to have good struggles with whatever you decide to go with, your pros and cons.
You also seem to fight people with much higher skill here than at native. You get much more of a good challenge and a more fun experience.
-
Nice
-
/facepalm
How about fight people your own level and gear, hone your skills, try to push the tide of victory into your teams favor, challenge that tin can with the 2her spamming away and see if you can bring him down, challenge yourself with less armor and a lower tier weapon vs the enemies... You know, actually fight and play the game? If all you can think of is crushing peasants then it kind of shows what your overall goal in the game was to begin with. Personally I'd rather look for the specific names out there of good players and try to take them out.
When I read your post ( not just this one, and not only on this forum ), i get a feeling you need to play Takken on a console. The original M&B WB is not a button smashing arcade beat'em'up. Its an RPG. Its about building you char.
Taken from M&B WB official page:
"There are no limits in Calradia, your story and game-play experiences are truly unique."
The pre-patched cRPG proved it!
One who is looking for a "competitive multi-player game" ( as one smart guy called cRPG ), with global scoreboards and such - will not buy Mount&Blade. He will buy CoD or Street Fighter. They are polished and offer more to one, who seeks that type of game-play.
Butt-hurt pre-patched peasants will reach lvl 30, smash buttons for few evenings, and move on. Even though not you, chadz ( concluded from his posts ), and many others care about it.
Whatever made cRPG unique - is gone. Upkeep? Xp/gold system? Lvl cap? I have no idea. But its not there anymore.
646 hours of cRPG played... I might push it to 666 just for the sakes of it hehe
-
/facepalm
How about fight people your own level and gear, hone your skills, try to push the tide of victory into your teams favor, challenge that tin can with the 2her spamming away and see if you can bring him down, challenge yourself with less armor and a lower tier weapon vs the enemies... You know, actually fight and play the game? If all you can think of is crushing peasants then it kind of shows what your overall goal in the game was to begin with. Personally I'd rather look for the specific names out there of good players and try to take them out.
I'm going to extrapolate an entire play style from one sentence! I'm Gorath!
-
I always aim for people in heavier armor/recognizable kit. If I see a PrideCrusher or someone similar I aim for them. It's more fun to fight someone that has the potential to absolutely crush you.
Recently I switched from 1h and shield to polearm (even though I have 1 WPF in it) and I'm having more fun. It's frustrating, because I'd love to retire my guy into a polearm user.
-
When I read your post ( not just this one, and not only on this forum ), i get a feeling you need to play Takken on a console. The original M&B WB is not a button smashing arcade beat'em'up. Its an RPG. Its about building you char.
I absolutely loved playing Tekken series on my old PS, SF series, etc etc. Many many FPS's as well.
I also enjoyed RPG's (both table top pen and paper ones from chainmail *pre-D&D, D&D from Gygax* onward)
However in a PVP game, and make no mistake about it - WB is a PVP focused game, skill-based combat is far > than spreadsheet based combat.
Yes M&B was/is about building your character, and cRPG still has that. However what really drew most players into the game was the combat. Yes archery and cav combat as well, but primarily the amazing melee system. A PVP focused game with skill-based combat doesn't need mindless grind for grinds sake. Spreadsheet online is completely counter to the idea of a competitive PVP game. All MMO's have proven this. WoW pvp is like this, and it's a joke. AoC is better, but still a joke, DarkFail= joke, WAR-joke. THIS is a good PVP RPG and it doesn't need grind because the gameplay itself is so fantastic. More MMO's should take note when they try to proclaim themselves "PVP" games.
-
I absolutely loved playing Tekken series on my old PS, SF series, etc etc. Many many FPS's as well.
I also enjoyed RPG's (both table top pen and paper ones from chainmail *pre-D&D, D&D from Gygax* onward)
However in a PVP game, and make no mistake about it - WB is a PVP focused game, skill-based combat is far > than spreadsheet based combat.
Yes M&B was/is about building your character, and cRPG still has that. However what really drew most players into the game was the combat. Yes archery and cav combat as well, but primarily the amazing melee system. A PVP focused game with skill-based combat doesn't need mindless grind for grinds sake. Spreadsheet online is completely counter to the idea of a competitive PVP game. All MMO's have proven this. WoW pvp is like this, and it's a joke. AoC is better, but still a joke, DarkFail= joke, WAR-joke. THIS is a good PVP RPG and it doesn't need grind because the gameplay itself is so fantastic. More MMO's should take note when they try to proclaim themselves "PVP" games.
Agreed.
-
I agree with Gorath.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
-
Without grind the game will get boring and lose its flavor quickly as people reach their respective maxes.
People still play Quake 3 Arena, Counter-Strike, Chess, and StarCraft: Brood War because the games had a grind. Oh wait.... no, people played those games for years or even dedicated their lives to them because they were fun to play.
Having something to work for is exactly what separates this mod from native. It's what keeps games fun for a long time.
Here's something to work on: getting better at the game! Only scrubs care about anything else.
-
YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN U GET TO LEVEL 30?
Buy a robe, a leather cap, some ankle boots and leather gloves. Find yourself a trusty staff and go out smashing people to shit!
Or grind to 31 and retire, m'kay?
-
Then what? This game is fun to play sure, but why not just play native? This mod is about becoming good while retaining a persistent character, or am I wrong about that? People want to continually approve, not just in skills but in some sort of measurable way. That's why the servers were constantly filled prepatch, because they all aspired to be not only good skillwise, but distinguished equipment wise as well.
I love how everyone is just resorting to thinly veiled ad hominem attacks. Come on guys, just because it remains fun for you doesn't mean that that's the case for everyone.
-
What I meant to say is try playing with different equipment, and in a different style, vary your weapons use different tactics. The brilliance of the mod is the diversity and the choice so use it.
Also you will be able to retire soon be patient.
-
I always aim for people in heavier armor/recognizable kit. If I see a PrideCrusher or someone similar I aim for them. It's more fun to fight someone that has the potential to absolutely crush you.
Recently I switched from 1h and shield to polearm (even though I have 1 WPF in it) and I'm having more fun. It's frustrating, because I'd love to retire my guy into a polearm user.
-
Yeah i read that...
Still my point stands, use different weapons from each tier you'll find they're all very different.
The difference between a poleaxe and a pike, the difference between a pike and a hafted blade or a staff. Its the variety that makes it interesting and the challenge that comes with using different weapons. You must have experienced it when you switch from 1h to pole arm so surely you will notice it if you just mix up your equipment choices each round.
Anyway like I said just be patient and wait for retirement. As I'm sure you've read chadz post by now you should know about it...
-
Yeah, I'm struggling with manual block.
-
Then what? This game is fun to play sure, but why not just play native?
Because native doesn't allow me to use a Langes messer, with a heater shield while wearing a klappvisor, leather boots, mail guantlets, and a red tunic over chain. Nor does it allow me to get rid of worthless stats for my playstyle and improve only the ones that suit how I play. I don't need throwing, nor do I need an excessive amount of 2her/polearm skill points when I use a 1h/shield or 1h no shield 90% of the time.
Native doesn't allow me customization, which is why during native I was a naked 2h user with 3 stacks of throwing "w/e the faction had to throw" 99% of the time.
-
I agree with the people stating that the draw of CRPG is having a customizable character, not just being able to grind until your stats are better than other people's stats. To me, the biggest draw about continuing to play this game is to get better. I enjoy becoming more skilled and being able to stand on even footing against people who previously stomped all over me. This is the way a PVP based game should work, IMO.
-
I agree with the people stating that the draw of CRPG is having a customizable character, not just being able to grind until your stats are better than other people's stats. To me, the biggest draw about continuing to play this game is to get better. I enjoy becoming more skilled and being able to stand on even footing against people who previously stomped all over me. This is the way a PVP based game should work, IMO.
I'm saying that there's a fine line between the two, yes, I think getting more skilled is great, but alone that's not enough in this case.
-
Native doesn't allow me customization, which is why during native I was a naked 2h user with 3 stacks of throwing "w/e the faction had to throw" 99% of the time.
That reminds me something from the siege server today... Ha-ha. Just an observation. Dont put them "troll points" on me!
I am actually pretty happy now, since New Patch Addon has been announced! A bone has been thrown in grinding public's direction, and i will happily chew on it! Can't wait! Nom nom nom!
-
I really don't understand the appeal in spending time not having fun for the sake of eventually maybe having fun. Character building doesn't have to mean number farming. It can also mean customization, tweaking, and practice until you develop your own play style and the best combination of values to complement it.
I started playing crpg because native didn't have much customization. Everyone except the top players was outfitted in the same stuff. There wasn't much flexibility. It was boring. I wanted a chance to explore a broader range of gameplay possibilities and hopefully end up finding a way to be more unique. Crpg gives me that chance. It's just unfortunate that I'm supposed to spend a bunch of time farming numbers first. I'm glad there's less emphasis on that now.
-
I'm saying that I want to customize further! I want to try out polearms, but I also want my benefits for putting so much time into this character.
-
Post-patch is starting to feel more and more like a grind then it ever felt like to me pre-patch between upkeep - level 31 retirement, slower xp gain since hotfix. I dont know if chadz has some idea that the harder it is to level up, the mor epeople enjoy it, but its a bit overkill to make level 31 as hard to get to as from level 1 to 30 and then makin retirement only at 31. Completely not worth the time for 1 heirloomed item. Does he realize he removed 90% of the benefits of retirement?
-
Post-patch is starting to feel more and more like a grind then it ever felt like to me pre-patch between upkeep - level 31 retirement, slower xp gain since hotfix. I dont know if chadz has some idea that the harder it is to level up, the mor epeople enjoy it, but its a bit overkill to make level 31 as hard to get to as from level 1 to 30 and then makin retirement only at 31. Completely not worth the time for 1 heirloomed item. Does he realize he removed 90% of the benefits of retirement?
I agree with this too. This is kinda crazy.
-
I'm saying that I want to customize further! I want to try out polearms, but I also want my benefits for putting so much time into this character.
So.... you want everything....
:rolleyes:
-
So.... you want everything....
:rolleyes:
I'd like to retire at 30. It takes over a week to get there playing realistically, so I think that's a good point to be at for retirement. However, 30 to 31 takes as long as making a whole character and getting it to 30, which seems excessive.
-
Maybe they could make it so you can retire at 30 but you only get the heirloomed item if you retire at 31. Just throwing stuff out there.
-
Look, there's a simple thing about the grind business. M&B has a great melee engine, and a guy who just spends all the time waiting to get xp will never learn to use it ... which simply means that a guy who just grinded to the top, who can still get a lot of kills through his boni and randomness and scares the shit out of you, is terribly afraid of a level 24 with a club, and when you can actually corner him a far more boring fight than a good player in mediocre gear.
And that's the entire point, you can either have a game with challenging interesting fights, or you can have boring fights against grinders, which just mostly feel like click-click-click-dead ... etc. ... oh, shit a random glance killed me.
-
Okay... THE SOFT LEVEL CAP, I REPEAT LEVEL CAP is 30, it makes no sense whatsoever that to retire you must reach a level HIGHER then the LEVEL CAP. Is anyone else wondering what chadz was thinking? Isnt the whole point of a level cap that people dont go past it (SOFT = vast majority dont go past it)? Yet you are rewarded with a heirloom if you try to break the level cap. Why didnt he keep it at level 30 like he mentioned before when discussing the patch in early dec./late nov.?
-
He is buffing heirlooms I believe. He is going to give you 1 heirloom for 3 former ones too.
-
Okay... THE SOFT LEVEL CAP, I REPEAT LEVEL CAP is 30, it makes no sense whatsoever that to retire you must reach a level HIGHER then the LEVEL CAP. Is anyone else wondering what chadz was thinking? Isnt the whole point of a level cap that people dont go past it (SOFT = vast majority dont go past it)? Yet you are rewarded with a heirloom if you try to break the level cap. Why didnt he keep it at level 30 like he mentioned before when discussing the patch in early dec./late nov.?
Aren't you gen 16 or something like that. Why do you care about retirement?
Personally, I agree with you. Lvl 31 is too much, even if you play a lot like me. But I don't see why is that concerning you. You already earn 2.5k XP per tick and that's on x1 modifier.
I think that chadz is worried that lvl 30 retirement will brake the balance he achieved with last patch. On the other hand he said that game wasn't fun, felt grindy. Lvl 31 retirement is grindy as it gets.
There is a way to keep the balance in line but that would hurt veterans too much. Retirement from lvl 15 like it was before but with one minor difference. When you pass lvl 30 and requirement for retirement becomes lvl 31 your max level will become lvl 31 until you retire again, then you'll have to reach lvl 32 but you won't be able to surpass it and so on.
-
Yes, level 31 is grindy as hell. That's why I set it there, for people who like achievements. For the rest, it's neither gamebreaking, nor required to retire.
It is up to you if you want to participate in the grind race or not.
I, for one, will not.
-
There are people who retire because they want to play a new class every week. True, there are alts but some of us like our families way too much to just leave them and start a new one ;)
-
pff 31 is doable (adjusted my build to level 31)
32 is hard ;D
-
pff 31 is doable (adjusted my build to level 31)
So did I, uhm, be accident rather, as the game distributed my points in a manner that is different than my plan. Bug. Anyway, now I have something to go for (lvl 28 now). I like that, it is good to have some long term goal. But still, do not think I am a grinder, as it is a very long term plan for me. So long, that I do not even bother myself with how much xp I got each round. I do care for gold and playing smart. I truly enjoy the post-patch version of this game as I find it more playable. The balance between classes is definitely better. I do not miss all these heavy plated guys, although it is always nice to meet one or two on the battlefield. Sometimes I wear may heavy-ish gear and enjoy that. It is costly, you say. Well, think when you play, it helps...
On grinding: I believe that everyone has his/her inner grinder. It is an easy way of competition and we all are tempted to go this way. The patch put more stress on more difficult one - skill improvement. And I think that this game actually needs both, and well balanced. The direction chadz adopted looks good for starters. We will see how it is going to develop.
-
I might add a "weak" retirement without a level requirement - it just resets your xp and level to 0.
-
I might add a "weak" retirement without a level requirement - it just resets your xp and level to 0.
How much XP from level 0 to 1? :D
P.S. Sorry for trolololo
-
I might add a "weak" retirement without a level requirement - it just resets your xp and level to 0.
That would not be harmful, I guess there are guys who are waiting for retirement just because they made mistakes in points distribution or suffered form the same bug as i did. I assume that after soft retirement one would keep gold and items, otherwise it would be like deletion of char and creation and alt.
One thing I wanted to add: one group suffered a lot from the patch - aesthetic maniacs who like to look good in their armour, which may be difficult to use now. I am more pragmatic type, but I heard such voices.
EDIT: Soft retirement would need to cost some gold, one should inherit only a portion of gold he has. Otherwise it could be a way for stockpiling.
-
chadz on the other forum you were thinking on adding 1 attribute change into skill point to go with the one already ingame which changed 2 skill points into 1 attribute.
Will this be ingame in some patch or won't be added?
-
I might add a "weak" retirement without a level requirement - it just resets your xp and level to 0.
+1 :), a lot of us made mistakes, or made characters that now no longer makes sense after the hotfix and this new development and Im sure once the strategus patch hits this will be true for even more people.
-
I might add a "weak" retirement without a level requirement - it just resets your xp and level to 0.
Now the heir bastard is born!
-
I'm with Kesh - it's baffling why retirement is set at 31 (not to mention the essential final attribute point!), and that 31 takes as long to get to as from 1 to 30. It's just a grind for the sake of grinding. Ugh. Nasty.
I enjoy retiring because the slight improvements to my gear adds some distinctiveness and specialization to my character. However, I really dislike this ugly, ugly grind, which seems to have been added purely for the sake of adding a grind.
The old method worked, and worked well. In fact, just earning enough gold to retire while maintaining enough for upkeep is going to be hard enough!
-
That's just common wisdom : from desire, challenge and waiting a long time comes frustration. The greater your envy of something and the effort you put into it, the greater the pleasure of finaly obtaining it.
I don't want to play a Korean F2P MMO nor an arcade game. cRPG had a good balance, a few problems had to be addressed (change the wpf bonus from retirement for example) to raise the skill part a bit. But as it is now it feels more like an arcade game. I play to level 30, and then ? Yes I can still enjoy the skill part of the game. But Native MP does that better, and I'm already bored of it after having played it more than a few hundreds hours. With the current system, cRPG lacks a proper goal to acheive after a few dozen hours of game.
-
I don't understand why there needs to constantly be something to "work" towards... the act of playing the game should be it. If playing isn't fun in itself, then something is wrong.
The MMORPG generation has convinced the video game world otherwise... The Grinding Mentality needs to be stopped, here and now!
-
Yes, level 31 is grindy as hell. That's why I set it there, for people who like achievements. For the rest, it's neither gamebreaking, nor required to retire.
It is up to you if you want to participate in the grind race or not.
I, for one, will not.
So you DON'T need to be 31 to retire?
Neat-o!
-
This game is boring now
I'm trying to like the new patch, but I can't.
I play for only 15 min at a time and then I leave.
-
Oh gosh, chadz in my topic?
I think that the idea of a soft retirement and a hard retirement is fantastic.
chadz: doing big things.
-
This game is boring now
I'm trying to like the new patch, but I can't.
I play for only 15 min at a time and then I leave.
Ignore that peasant. Game is better now then it has ever been.
-
Ignore that peasant. Game is better now then it has ever been.
Find me in the game and you'll see that I'm definitely not a peasant, you troll. I'm up there with Lady Gaga and Beatrix you mum hole.
Look for me: EricCire.
-
Ignore that peasant. Game is better now then it has ever been.
I must agree with that statement. At first I thought that patch is complete disaster but it's really fun.
chadz seems to working a lot lately. Three patches in a month, that's a lot of work. chadz, take some rest. We won't die without new patch for sometime :)
-
I might add a "weak" retirement without a level requirement - it just resets your xp and level to 0.
Great News!
-
Hm,
the option of soft retirement could solve all those whiney posts about how impossible it is to reach lvl 31. I started playing quite recently, made myself 3rd generation (so getting 1200xp/min with x1), atm i am missing only like 3,5million XP to lvl up, and considering that now i have few friends, that started playing again, the XP just comes along while we are having fun.
Not to talk about realism, i mean, you do not retire in real at 25 years or something. So lvlup, play around a little, and in some time ull hit 31 too, being grinder or not. Just, grinders have it quicker :P
I, for one, disagree with removal of WPF percentage, as i was going to build up my char as pure 2h spec, which is now cinda useless, as i wont have any bonus over anyone else having same spec, no matter what generation we are. From the RPG point of view it even made sense, ur father/mother, who was skilled warrior, passed some of their experience to you, so you can control the main weapon from them with some bonus.
Anyways, as a newcomer pretty much, i dont mind these changes. Its even fun to run around in leather whilst earning money for the sweet piece of steel you dreamed about.
-
I might add a "weak" retirement without a level requirement - it just resets your xp and level to 0.
That'd be awesome, really. Postpatch with the respec some of us made silly errors, and grinding up to level 31 to correct them - even if you get a bonus heirloom - is a pain.