cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Cup1d on May 28, 2011, 11:50:24 pm

Title: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on May 28, 2011, 11:50:24 pm
Facts only

Fastest man
During Usain Bolt's World record 100m sprint (9.58) at the 2009 Athletic Championships in Berlin, Bolt covered reached his top speed of 12.27 m/s

Fastest horse
"The American Quarter Horse is the king of speed. In fact, racing American Quarter Horses have been clocked at nearly 50 mph as they cross the finish line." Or - 20 m/s
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Wrenaq_Lars on May 28, 2011, 11:56:43 pm
I can run faster than a fully grown pit pony :D
In fact can we have pit ponys please next patch :D
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on June 02, 2011, 04:59:30 pm
Ok. Little testing


Tested on EU_3.
Map - ruins
Naked character with 3 riding and 3 athletics
Standart desert horse

Distance
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/mbwarbanddistance.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Man speed - 26 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyR2IOhTZ3E

Horse speed - 12 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXhH0ttD920


In real life thoroughbred horse faster than athlete.
By 1,63


In game horse faster than man.
By 2,16

Please note:
1. Its not the fastest horse
2. Its nonheirloomed horse
3. There no additional bonus from Riding


Something is really wrong mates.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Ujin on June 02, 2011, 05:06:22 pm
Facts only

Fastest man
During Usain Bolt's World record 100m sprint (9.58) at the 2009 Athletic Championships in Berlin, Bolt covered reached his top speed of 12.27 m/s

Fastest horse
"The American Quarter Horse is the king of speed. In fact, racing American Quarter Horses have been clocked at nearly 50 mph as they cross the finish line." Or - 20 m/s
And , your point ? Whatever changes you're going to suggest, should we start the good old realism discussion concerning arrows vs armours ?
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Gnjus on June 02, 2011, 05:26:22 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Damug on June 02, 2011, 05:45:51 pm
Tested on EU_3.
Map - ruins
Naked character with 3 riding and 3 athletics
Standart desert horse
Are you trying to imply that a character with 3 athletics is the same speed as a world record holding athlete?

I think the more accurate test would be a 13 athletics character vs. a 4 riding character on a courser.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on June 02, 2011, 06:41:06 pm
Quote
Are you trying to imply that a character with 3 athletics is the same speed as a world record holding athlete?

No. I'm talking about proportion of horse and man speed. IRL life - horse faster by 20:12,27 = 1,629

Quote
I think the more accurate test would be a 13 athletics character vs. a 4 riding character on a courser.

Are you trying to imply that a character with 4 riding and courser can  achieve the same speed as a world record holding horse? Really?

Or you really think if we use char with 13 athletics versus char with 13 riding and courser speed proportion would be better? 



Quote
And , your point ? Whatever changes you're going to suggest, should we start the good old realism discussion concerning arrows vs armours ?

Should we start the good old realism discussion about mountain-climber\Everest conqueror horses instead?
Or, maybe, we can talk about real Plate Armor in XIII century period?
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Damug on June 02, 2011, 06:48:35 pm
Sure, do that then.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: gazda on June 02, 2011, 07:00:34 pm
not everyone is athlete, some of us are fat ugly drunk nords, i dont see why we should change that
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: CoWorm on June 02, 2011, 07:11:15 pm
I can see your getting at nerfing horse speed. But how about giving some proper gameplay arguments as to why instead of comparing ingame speed with real athletes and horses, which frankly doesn't matter much in a game.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on June 02, 2011, 07:18:53 pm
Quote
I can see your getting at nerfing horse speed

Can you show me where I say anything about nerfing horse speed?

Quote
not everyone is athlete, some of us are fat ugly drunk nords, i dont see why we should change that


Yes. And no. Because some of horses are bad fed, unwashed, bad tempered, with sensitive teeth etc...
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Ujin on June 02, 2011, 07:31:31 pm


Should we start the good old realism discussion about mountain-climber\Everest conqueror horses instead?
Or, maybe, we can talk about real Plate Armor in XIII century period?
I think you misunderstood me . Just like the guy above me said, you shouldn't bring real-life arguments into a videogame like this to justify another nerf for a class you don't play. More so, your "tests" are laughable at best. No offence intended.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on June 02, 2011, 07:41:40 pm
Quote
you shouldn't bring real-life arguments into a videogame like this


Are you ready to make a confession like this:
 - Yes, horses are TOO fast comparable to man speed, but its ok, it only help me be more awesome in this videogame.

no offence mate.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Ujin on June 02, 2011, 07:44:37 pm


Are you ready to make a confession like this:
 - Yes, horses are TOO fast comparable to man speed, but its ok, it only help me be more awesome in this videogame.

no offence mate.
Um , is that the best you've got ?Abit childish. I can reverse it and say - "Is this your way of nerfing your worst enemies' classes in order to make life easier for ya?".See what i did there ?
 I'm using a fairly slow horse (destrier) , if it gets slower it just won't be interesting for me anymore. However, when i go infantry (which i do quite often), i don't see any problems with horses speed, maybe except for loomed coursers.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: kongxinga on June 02, 2011, 07:54:39 pm
How can you compare worlds fastest man to the average of many different race horses? Bolt might be fast, but can he keep up that top speed for 50 miles? Were the horses doing 100 metre dashes? Was bolt carrying a horse or at least another man on his back? Was bolt weaking leather boots and assorted medieval gear? When they said clocked at finish line, did they measure speed at the instant the horses crossed the line, or did they measure it by averaging, like they did for bolt. That might be relevant too because the horses may be faster  (last push) or slower (fatigue) at that moment.

By what justification do you extrapolate to declare that this is the correct ratio of speeds? Are we all suddenly the worlds best 100 metre sprinter, fighting against riders of the American quarter horse? Did you get the stats for the fastest quarter horse?
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on June 02, 2011, 08:09:24 pm
Quote
Um , is that the best you've got ?Abit childish. I can reverse it and say - "Is this your way of nerfing your worst enemies' classes in order to make life easier for ya?".See what i did there ?

Can you show me where I say anything about nerfing horse speed? Can't?
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Ujin on June 02, 2011, 08:12:55 pm
Whatever changes you're going to suggest
Hate to quote myself. This topic makes little sense to me, honestly.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on June 02, 2011, 08:25:50 pm
Quote
How can you compare worlds fastest man to the average of many different race horses? Bolt might be fast, but can he keep up that top speed for 50 miles?

Heh, you know horses that can keep up top speed for 50 miles?
I can compare fastest man with fastest horse. Also I can compare average man and average horse.


Quote
By what justification do you extrapolate to declare that this is the correct ratio of speeds? Are we all suddenly the worlds best 100 metre sprinter, fighting against riders of the American quarter horse? Did you get the stats for the fastest quarter horse?

No. But we can compare char with 15 athletics (upper limit) and char with 15 riding (upper limit) and fastest horse. Both char gimped, but speed proportion must be correct.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 02, 2011, 08:45:29 pm
While humans can run very fast, we excel not at speed but endurance. We can outrun every land animal including horses. The primary hunting tactic of humans, other than ambush and traps, is to chase animals to exhaustion including horses. Several tribes around the world still hunt this way.

But yeah, horses are disproportionately faster to humans than they should be, if it were real life. In game the horses are always running at a sprint but people are barely even jogging. If there was a toggle-able sprint mechanic in game for characters? Sure then we could compare the sprint speeds.

I don't like this thread already, so much misunderstanding of top speed and endurance of humans and animals :(. The game is far from real life and won't be like real life.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Armbrust_Schtze on June 02, 2011, 11:44:56 pm
hes true...and remember that most horses cant be riden like amotor cycle, u had to give it the direction and couldnt drive it like a car, i think the maneuver points should be reduced too.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Keshian on June 03, 2011, 12:15:20 am
I just miss pre-january when athletics and agility seemed twice as effective.  You could actually dodge horses then instead of try and walk fast to the left or right like now, while a horse moving at the speed of a freight train runs you down.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: EponiCo on June 03, 2011, 12:22:19 am
hes true...and remember that most horses cant be riden like amotor cycle, u had to give it the direction and couldnt drive it like a car, i think the maneuver points should be reduced too.

True. Then otoh a horse can also walk sideways and not just straight ahead.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 03, 2011, 12:33:54 am
True. Then otoh a horse can also walk sideways and not just straight ahead.
Walk not gallop
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Kafein on June 03, 2011, 12:56:35 am
The reasons showed here might not be correct, fast and maneuvrable horses need a good o'll nerf. Again. And I mean it.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Banok on June 03, 2011, 04:48:10 am
I think he makes a good point from a realism perspective, mounts in game currently are more like motorbikes. infact my champ arabian has better handling/acceleration than most cars/bikes in other games!

but I also agree with posters that realism arguments are mostly irrelevent, gameplay > realism.

 except that in this case I think the game would be more balanced if horses were slowed abit but what we really need is a MUCH bigger effect of althletic skill cause right now its pretty useless.

I have a 10 althletics char and its useless, the speed dif is negliable. 10 althletics should make you run nearly as fast as a sumpter.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: LordRichrich on June 03, 2011, 06:23:50 pm
You're suggesting (seeing as this is a suggestion thread) the nerf of horse speed or the buff of man speed...
So you want to make horses suck more?
No ty

And you can never never use real life examples for games unless the game is designed to be 100% realistic, in which case I want 1-hit-kill horse bumps. I hit you with my horse and unless you're wearing plate (maybe) your ribcage is gonna split, or your leg would break, or your skull would crack. I'd also want horse armour to be buffed so it would become immune to low cut damage. And ... etc etc
If anything horses are too slow, pikemen can turn on the spot and hit you as you rid past them. Not toward them, PAST them
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Keshian on June 03, 2011, 07:46:30 pm
You're suggesting (seeing as this is a suggestion thread) the nerf of horse speed or the buff of man speed...
So you want to make horses suck more?
No ty

And you can never never use real life examples for games unless the game is designed to be 100% realistic, in which case I want 1-hit-kill horse bumps. I hit you with my horse and unless you're wearing plate (maybe) your ribcage is gonna split, or your leg would break, or your skull would crack. I'd also want horse armour to be buffed so it would become immune to low cut damage. And ... etc etc
If anything horses are too slow, pikemen can turn on the spot and hit you as you rid past them. Not toward them, PAST them

Your joking right?  Ask any decent/average cav player and horses don't suck at all unless being near the top of scoreboards consistently sucks for average players.  Most heirloomed coursers can take 2-3 hits froma  pike and 3-4 arrows, sometimes 5 if they get shot at while riding away.  Courser and arabian warhorse have insane maneuverability and speed. 
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 07, 2011, 03:30:14 pm
good cav is on the top of the scoreboard cause we are sneaky bastards that couch lance you in the back :)
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Torben on June 07, 2011, 03:49:09 pm
u cant ruin the fun for people using unheirloomed horses jsut because youre pissed  by specialized cav men on heirloomed ones.  making the unheirloomed horse any slower would take all the fun out of it,  which is unfair.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Thomek on June 07, 2011, 04:51:10 pm
2 top vultures just checked in..

Omg..  We will never be able to balance cav, simply because the horse goes in an additional slot not available without a horse.
The sacrifice for riding a horse is as well far to little, in that it costs only a few points to get riding..

The only way to fix cav for good is to make them spend lots and lots of points in it, so they will be useless on foot.

What I mean is that you simply unlock the AGI requirement for Riding.
Then you send the riding requirement of horses through the roof. (like spend 10 points to get to ride a Destrier..)

We would then see more of STR horsemen with low wpf... Deadly on a horse, not so much on foot..
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Bulzur on June 07, 2011, 05:13:31 pm
2 top vultures just checked in..

Omg..  We will never be able to balance cav, simply because the horse goes in an additional slot not available without a horse.
The sacrifice for riding a horse is as well far to little, in that it costs only a few points to get riding..

The only way to fix cav for good is to make them spend lots and lots of points in it, so they will be useless on foot.

What I mean is that you simply unlock the AGI requirement for Riding.
Then you send the riding requirement of horses through the roof. (like spend 10 points to get to ride a Destrier..)

We would then see more of STR horsemen with low wpf... Deadly on a horse, not so much on foot..

Yep, i want to  buy magic boots going in the same slot as horses, wich gives +7 athletics and cost 10k gold. Only need 6 agi for them btw.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Torben on June 07, 2011, 05:46:46 pm
meh,  specialized footmen will always be as deadly as we are on horse,  but nm im out
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cup1d on June 19, 2011, 01:08:33 pm
Ok. As I promise little more testing


Tested on EU_3.
Map - ruins

Naked character with 39 agility and 13 athletics
versus
Naked character with 39 agility, 13 riding and Standart courser.

Distance
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Man speed - 22 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTu4xdyFme4

as you remember, in first test char with 3 athletics run this distance by 26 seconds.
therefore + 10 athletics make you faster by 18%. Or 1,8% by athletics point. Mighty speed boost.

Horse speed - 9 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXfRWLjRwBU

In real life thoroughbred horse faster than athlete.
By 1,63

In game horse faster than man.
By 2,44


Please note:
1. Its nonheirloomed horse. Heirloomed horse will have even more gandicap.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Damug on June 19, 2011, 02:26:36 pm
Yep, i want to  buy magic boots going in the same slot as horses, wich gives +7 athletics and cost 10k gold. Only need 6 agi for them btw.
Only if those boots can be shoot out from under your with 1 or 2 arrows.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Overdriven on June 19, 2011, 04:03:09 pm
Lol...this thread makes little sense and makes me laugh. Just another nerf cav thread, with a very poor attempt at 'testing' in an attempt to back up a nerf.

Thomek...spend 10 points for a destrier? Lol funny. Making the requirment more makes no sense, because many cavalry have to have a certain degree of strength for weapons, armour and PS. If they are forced to put all their points in agi then all  heavy cavalry would be gone and only see more light, stealth cav or HA... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Keshian on June 19, 2011, 04:55:20 pm
I do appreciate seeing the difference though in that it does show that riding skill adds more to horse speed than athletics does to running speed (maybe base is higher but same percentage but it comes out to the same in the end)


for the rider the time of 12 seconds went down to 9 sec
while running went from 26 seconds only down to 22 seconds

the rider shaved off 25% of his time, but the runner (should say walker, since no one runs since January) only shaved off 15% off his time.  That is huge because on top of that you can't heirloom your running speed, but you can heirloom your jet plane (sorry courser)'s cruising speed, which also allows it to take 5 hits before dying despite being an unarmored horse and the fastest horse in the game.  Pre-January each athletics point gave a 10% bonus to speed, whatever happened to that???

Thank you for making the effort to test it out Cupid.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on June 19, 2011, 05:07:45 pm
I call bullshit :P I wanna see a video of Cup1d in real life running alongside your average horse... then we can rant about realism and how it doesnt really apply :P
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Overdriven on June 19, 2011, 06:57:41 pm
the rider shaved off 25% of his time, but the runner (should say walker, since no one runs since January) only shaved off 15% off his time.  That is huge because on top of that you can't heirloom your running speed, but you can heirloom your jet plane (sorry courser)'s cruising speed, which also allows it to take 5 hits before dying despite being an unarmored horse and the fastest horse in the game.  Pre-January each athletics point gave a 10% bonus to speed, whatever happened to that???

Thank you for making the effort to test it out Cupid.

They keep insisting athletics is hardcoded...
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Seawied on June 19, 2011, 10:54:17 pm
I call bullshit :P I wanna see a video of Cup1d in real life running alongside your average horse... then we can rant about realism and how it doesnt really apply :P

Cup1d's real life name is Jamie Baulch. I found him on youtube  :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgFjFlO95-g

Horse and Baulch were neck and neck at 53 seconds. Horse crosses finish line 3 seconds later, man finishes 5 seconds later.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Keshian on June 19, 2011, 10:58:54 pm
Cup1d's real life name is Jamie Baulch. I found him on youtube  :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgFjFlO95-g

Horse and Baulch were neck and neck at 53 seconds. Horse crosses finish line 3 seconds later, man finishes 5 seconds later.

That guy was a chump.   This guy actually beat the damn horse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWGoSc28B1M&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWGoSc28B1M&feature=related)


P.S. What a guy with athletics 12 should do to a sumpter rider with riding 2.  The correct baseline for cRPG.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Seawied on June 19, 2011, 11:08:51 pm
 :lol:

I love Ocho Cinco! I tried to find that exact clip earlier. Good find
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 20, 2011, 09:17:05 am
I want a motor cycle with a side cart and a machinegun so I can fly to the moon and poo pixey dust into the eyes of children.

The horses are fine, the horses archers however are a giant anoying pain in the ares. Boy does it grind my arse when they are the only player left and your team has 5 or 6 well armoured guys and they have no chance in hell of winning and they just keep kiting around anoying every on the server. I know that it is a player issue and people will find a way to troll no matter what, so says Troll's Law of internet dickary, but man I just wish that they couldn't shoot for shit with out 3lvls of horse archer. The dude on my server says he doesn't have one point in it and yet can hit people with every third shot he doesn't get a lot of kills but man its anoying, he helps his team out with dmg but man oh man its anoyying.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: SkyrayFox on June 20, 2011, 10:22:38 am
That guy was a chump.   This guy actually beat the damn horse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWGoSc28B1M&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWGoSc28B1M&feature=related)


P.S. What a guy with athletics 12 should do to a sumpter rider with riding 2.  The correct baseline for cRPG.

I like how the guy starts in the middle of the track and races only for like 50 meters. That's a fair race right there.

Also there were no samurai in Europe during middle ages so I vote to remove all samurai gear including Katana.

I want cake as well please. People in middle ages had to eat too.

Please ?
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Penitent on June 20, 2011, 07:22:57 pm
The players in M&B are jogging..NOT SPRINTING.  The speeds seem fine.  There is no sprint in this game.  The Horses (at full gallop) are sprinting.  Horses can sprint for longer and more often than men can, so that is fine.

If sprinting was added, and well as stamina (for men and horses) we should make sure the human sprint speed is 1.6 times slower than the horse sprint speed.
Title: Re: Horse versus Man. Speed suggestion.
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 20, 2011, 09:44:41 pm
Oh god this thread is still around.

Ok. Horses are faster in short distance at full sprint. People don't even sprint in this game, if we had a sprint mechanic then we can discuss the speed difference. [and imo we should. people go so slow in this game...]

Humans have more stamina and can run FURTHER than a horse. We have more endurance and don't overheat like horses. Horses can not sprint for longer and more often than men can, i wanted to just clarify that. But we aren't as fast as a horse until we catch up after several miles. Humans can do ultra marathons, where horses would die trying.

I bet everyone in here is a heel striker too.  Watch this, for your own benefit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrnj-7YKZE