cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Siboire on May 26, 2011, 09:33:43 pm
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Is this an issue with the game mecanism itself or can it be fixed in the mod? I'm just tired of facehugging ppl while dueling a polearm poker and being stab-spammed by ppl doing some "turn-lol-o-stab" or being stabbed while the piercing end of the weapon model (like the pike or wtv pokin weapon) was behind me. I'v been poked like this trough trees, corners of building and even other players (ennemy stabbed me trough his teamate) too much times.
Is there a way Devs could fix this ridiculous, game breakin bug?
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Unfortunately no, unless you want to see glances every time someone pokes/thrust at something. It could get annoying but its also one aspect of the game. Stabbing through scenery, players, ect i agree is cheap, but i dont think they can fix this with the coding and all
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And about "turn-lol-stabs" ?
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I'm pretty sure that's just how hit detection works in Warband, AFAIK it can't be changed by reworking animations.
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Yeah the lol-turn-stab cant be fixed too sadly ^
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great....
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Pikes and other really long pole arms weigh over 60 pounds. (according to some pike weight website I just went to)
I think the core problem here is that people use them in face to face combat in the first place.
We could add unbalanced too them to fix this.
I think its reasonable to remove the ability to cancel an attack midway through and block.
(If it were me I would increase the damage a lot, lower the speed a lot and add unbalanced)
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Pikes and other really long pole arms weigh over 60 pounds. (according to some pike weight website I just went to)
rofl
give me a link to this shitty web site.
Also make sure ur not talking about hoplite equipment
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Pikes and other really long pole arms weigh over 60 pounds. (according to some pike weight website I just went to)
LOL. No one is going to carry around a 60 lb pole. According to a book I have, a pike was about 18 feet long and weighed about 14 lbs. Makes sense.
I totally agree with making pikes and the long spear unbalanced though.
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I say every lances become couch only and we remove the pikes/long spears.
The engine is shit at handling any weapon over 160 reach it seems, so by removing the thrust on horse, pikes and long spears wouldn't be needed anymore to kill a cav as a couching cav is relatively easy to kill if you know what you're doing, and then that would rid us of the stupid long reach weapons breaking the engine.
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I say every lances become couch only and we remove the pikes/long spears.
The engine is shit at handling any weapon over 160 reach it seems, so by removing the thrust on horse, pikes and long spears wouldn't be needed anymore to kill a cav as a couching cav is relatively easy to kill if you know what you're doing, and then that would rid us of the stupid long reach weapons breaking the engine.
Prepare to get lynched by the Heavy Lance Army.
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I say every lances become couch only and we remove the pikes/long spears.
The engine is shit at handling any weapon over 160 reach it seems, so by removing the thrust on horse, pikes and long spears wouldn't be needed anymore to kill a cav as a couching cav is relatively easy to kill if you know what you're doing, and then that would rid us of the stupid long reach weapons breaking the engine.
So you would want a horse to become easy to kill? Would this also include a reduction of prices then for the horses, or would the sword/axe cav become acceptable replacements?
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Removing thrust on horse would be like nearly removing cavalry, it would be no fun at all to play cav then. (atleast lancing cav)
However, I have a question about this "turn-lol-o-stab". How does one do it? Can someone explain what someone is doing when performing a "turn-lol-o-stab"? (im not planning on using it myself, but Im just curious to understand the problem)
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Well spin stabs aren't really any more or less dumb than people swinging their weapons into the ground (because there is no collision with it) to make them harder to see and otherwise get swings off when they shouldn't be able to.
Not sure what you could do to fix spinning pikes that wouldn't totally break gameplay for shield + spear guys or other thrusting weapons.
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It's very annoying to try stabbing past a teammate and have it kill them despite the fact that it really shouldn't, or killing a teammate next to you because you were standing too close when you were stabbing. From what I can understand, the end of the weapon typically has collision while the rest of it doesn't seem to as much, so you can stab "around" a teammate or a wall even if you are directly behind it. I think that the more you turn the stab the more likely it is to bounce, though.
The 180 stabs as far as I know are not really 180 stabs, but people chambering an attack, turning around, and THEN stabbing, not stabbing then turning around. They work because of the weirdass hit detection. If you are on terrain (not on an object such as a castle wall or something) people can stab into the ground, then aim upwards so the weapon connects with you and deals damage since the weapon has some velocity (if they stabbed directly at you it would immediately bounce and stun them for 3 seconds or so). I don't understand it completely though, since as mentioned before, you can be standing next to a teammate and have the part near where you are holding the weapon completely decimate them, yet overhead swings tend not to hit them at all (except on the backswing, where it will rape the shit out of them, yet only mildly annoy enemies)
What I usually do if I want to stab past something is stab to up upper right, then bring it down past the obstacle. It's mainly since there's only one stab animation, you can't stab from anywhere above your waist, making it hard to naturally stab over things you normally would be able to.
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LOL. No one is going to carry around a 60 lb pole. According to a book I have, a pike was about 18 feet long and weighed about 14 lbs. Makes sense.
I totally agree with making pikes and the long spear unbalanced though.
I don't know about the 60 lbs, but I have never heard of any piece of wood, 3x the length of a man only weighing 14 lbs (weight of 14 pairs of tennis shoes). It would have to be rail-thin, which would make it snap in half really easily. It was a rather cumbersome weapon, the main reason it was effective is that you were surrounded by a couple hundred other people with pikes, you didn't need to stab fast, just stick in formation. (Never heard of anyone overheading like they do with the long spear in this game animation, glad they removed that for the 300 length pike now.
I do agree the pike should be around same speed as heavy lance, and the long spear, bamboo spear, and long awlpike should be speed of normal lance and the normal awlpike should be the speed of the light lance. Not sure how the unbalanced would change things, but it would make a sort of sense that something that long and unwieldy would be unbalanced.
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Give spear/pikes 4 directions of attack then, or the ability to choke up on the haft, trip you, parry and disarm you, etc to replace the spin-thrust as this is their ONLY effective way of maintaining minimal viability in melee combat since the ez-mode counter is to facehug the spearman/piker and hilt slash at him with your 2h/polearm lightsaber.
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I don't know about the 60 lbs, but I have never heard of any piece of wood, 3x the length of a man only weighing 14 lbs (weight of 14 pairs of tennis shoes). It would have to be rail-thin, which would make it snap in half really easily. It was a rather cumbersome weapon, the main reason it was effective is that you were surrounded by a couple hundred other people with pikes, you didn't need to stab fast, just stick in formation. (Never heard of anyone overheading like they do with the long spear in this game animation, glad they removed that for the 300 length pike now.
I do agree the pike should be around same speed as heavy lance, and the long spear, bamboo spear, and long awlpike should be speed of normal lance and the normal awlpike should be the speed of the light lance. Not sure how the unbalanced would change things, but it would make a sort of sense that something that long and unwieldy would be unbalanced.
Indeed to all. All long polearms like pikes should be really slow, should only stab and it should not be doable to change the stab direction DURING a stab animation (smaller polearms like awlpike should be ok I guess but something 18 feet long O.O''). I mean comon! Who could turn on himself while stabbing with something 18 feet long?
We also need something to remove the "I-stab-u-up-your-skirt lolstab" (pikeman stabbing somebody facehugging him by lookin briefly at floor while stabbin)
Give spear/pikes 4 directions of attack then, or the ability to choke up on the haft, trip you, parry and disarm you, etc to replace the spin-thrust as this is their ONLY effective way of maintaining minimal viability in melee combat since the ez-mode counter is to facehug the spearman/piker and hilt slash at him with your 2h/polearm lightsaber.
huh, pikemen/spearmen have a support role, they should not be able to be efficient at 1-1 duels. "spin-trust" is in it's way an exploit of a failure in the game system.
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huh, pikemen/spearmen have a support role, they should not be able to be efficient at 1-1 duels.
:rolleyes:
Funny, because pikemen/spearmen were using the predominant battlefield weapons for most of human history, with highly developed dueling and warfare techniques and a myriad of styles (often moreso than any other weapon on the field).
The swiss, germans, chinese, japanese and more all had EXTREMELY developed fighting/dueling systems for everything from short spears to pikes and everything in-between. The germans especially have/had an extensively evolved long-spear martial arts style using spears in c-rpg terms of what would be around bamboo spear length. There's still fencing clubs that practice them today. The asian cultures as well have/had amazingly in-depth spear arts that still exist today. The Maori tribes also had insanely deep spear-fighting techniques and disciplines throughout their culture.
I know hollywood really really promotes the sword and all, but look at the sum-total of human warfare. Spears and bows were the two weapons that really defined our species.
Since any videos of anyone non-european will probably be met with nothing more than cries of WEEABO! and shit, here
European practicioners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_v6FCc0JlI
More german techniques: http://youtu.be/b8dky4r3nOA?t=1m40s
*TLDR : Your idea that spears/longspears (pikes) should not be efficient in 1v1 duels is ignorant of the capabilities and reality of the weapon(s).
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This is a game, I was not talking about realism. You can't have 200 reach AND be able to stab/overhead somebody that is right in ur face in the game, it's either one or the other. If not, then I want my arbalest to shoot bolts with the size of a tree at pinpoint accuracy, and can hit multiple targets, oh and I can use my Arbalest to bash ppl in the face with :mrgreen:
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This is a game, I was not talking about realism. You can't have 200 reach AND be able to stab/overhead somebody that is right in ur face in the game, it's either one or the other. If not, then I want my arbalest to shoot bolts with the size of a tree at pinpoint accuracy, and can hit multiple targets, oh and I can use my Arbalest to bash ppl in the face with :mrgreen:
Your arbalest idea isn't basic in either reality NOR LOGIC. The usage of spears/longspears as dueling weapons IS based on LOGIC.
*Game-wise: Those weapons are already weak as hell compared to other weapon types for dueling purposes. The fact that people have found a way to make them work decent is a testiment to their skill more than anything else.
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Since any videos of anyone non-european will probably be met with nothing more than cries of WEEABO! and shit, here
European practicioners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_v6FCc0JlI
More german techniques: http://youtu.be/b8dky4r3nOA?t=1m40s
*TLDR : Your idea that spears/longspears (pikes) should not be efficient in 1v1 duels is ignorant of the capabilities and reality of the weapon(s).
I started out by typing some sarcasm, then decided to just say fuck it. You're completely and utterly wrong if you think you can fight a sword and board or a greatsword user with an 18 foot polearm and not be at a disadvantage. The existence of "techniques" says nothing about the effectiveness in all situations. You can take karate classes on how to disarm someone with a gun, does that mean a bunch of black bets would ever be able to kill a bunch of modern day soldiers with guns? Fuck no it doesn't.
Those videos you linked show nothing about poles longer than 8 feet, not to mention fighting people of different weapon types. They prove absolutely nothing aside from the already well known fact, that there are indeed spear techniques.
The phalanx was effective because you had several other men with you which helped to keep enemies from getting close, because once they got close enough, you were dead if you were still holding that pike in your hand.
tldr: Your delusional idea on the "reality of weapons", that spears/longspears (pikes) should be efficient in 1v1 duels against swords is simply put, fucking retarded.
If you're going to act like an ass, you can expect to get the same thing in return and I'm always more than willing to step in and do this for other people.
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I started out by typing some sarcasm, then decided to just say fuck it.
Apparently you said fuck it to reading fucktard
huh, pikemen/spearmen have a support role, they should not be able to be efficient at 1-1 duels. "spin-trust" is in it's way an exploit of a failure in the game system.
:rolleyes:
Funny, because pikemen/spearmen were using the predominant battlefield weapons for most of human history, with highly developed dueling and warfare techniques and a myriad of styles (often moreso than any other weapon on the field).
The swiss, germans, chinese, japanese and more all had EXTREMELY developed fighting/dueling systems for everything from short spears to pikes and everything in-between. The germans especially have/had an extensively evolved long-spear martial arts style using spears in c-rpg terms of what would be around bamboo spear length. There's still fencing clubs that practice them today. The asian cultures as well have/had amazingly in-depth spear arts that still exist today. The Maori tribes also had insanely deep spear-fighting techniques and disciplines throughout their culture.
I know hollywood really really promotes the sword and all, but look at the sum-total of human warfare. Spears and bows were the two weapons that really defined our species.
Since any videos of anyone non-european will probably be met with nothing more than cries of WEEABO! and shit, here
European practicioners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_v6FCc0JlI
More german techniques: http://youtu.be/b8dky4r3nOA?t=1m40s
*TLDR : Your idea that spears/longspears (pikes) should not be efficient in 1v1 duels is ignorant of the capabilities and reality of the weapon(s).
Read first next time dipshit. I never said anything about an 18 foot polearm, of which we don't even have in the game (maybe the "long" pike, but that can only thrust and glances off of EVERYTHING that's not at max range) I made it pretty clear the type of weapons I was referring to in regards to his comment that spearmen were incapable of dueling with any success.
Next time you're going to be a cunt, take a closer look at exactly what you're trying to be a cunt about. "Pikes" btw were anywhere from 3-7.5 meters long. An 8-9 foot pike (which is about what we have in the game) is functional with longspear techniques as that's essentially all it is.
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Apparently you said fuck it to reading fucktard
Read first next time dipshit. I never said anything about an 18 foot polearm, of which we don't even have in the game (maybe the "long" pike, but that can only thrust and glances off of EVERYTHING that's not at max range) I made it pretty clear the type of weapons I was referring to in regards to his comment that spearmen were incapable of dueling with any success.
Next time you're going to be a cunt, take a closer look at exactly what you're trying to be a cunt about. "Pikes" btw were anywhere from 3-7.5 meters long. An 8-9 foot pike (which is about what we have in the game) is functional with longspear techniques as that's essentially all it is.
It's not a matter of being 18 ft exactly, (which was stated by the guy you were arguing with). It's about the extreme length of your weapon making it impossible to actually do more than block attacks from a shorter weapon, when in close range. You stated the word "pike" which by the way, 3 meters = 9.8 feet, not 8-9 ft like in your example. Yet again you're wrong.
Good job not reading anything except the first two sentences, you know, the parts where I argued with the bulk of your post that I apparently didn't read. How convenient for you to try and get off without having to concede your points, by saying I was the one that didn't read.
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I know you believe that swords are the absolute best dueling weapons EVAR and that there's no way a long spear or pike could ever hope to defend himself, much less defeat the uber manliness that is a sword user. Oh the only thing he could ever hope to do is block for dear life against the almighty power of the sword and pray god smites him down before he is run through. /tremble
Nevermind the fact that there's trapping/grappling techniques along with a weapon that just as capable of dealing damaging blows with any part of it besides the pointy tip, just like with most weapons. Nor the fact that, other than your bundle of sticks attempt to bring guns into it which single handedly changed combat on the planet in history, an unarmed man was just as capable of defeating the godly sword wielders as anyone in a duel. Spearmen, and yes a well trained pikeman with a short pike 9.8! (god forbid I don't have euro-math memorized) feet long as well.
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I know you believe that swords are the absolute best dueling weapons EVAR and that there's no way a long spear or pike could ever hope to defend himself, much less defeat the uber manliness that is a sword user. Oh the only thing he could ever hope to do is block for dear life against the almighty power of the sword and pray god smites him down before he is run through. /tremble
Nevermind the fact that there's trapping/grappling techniques along with a weapon that just as capable of dealing damaging blows with any part of it besides the pointy tip, just like with most weapons. Nor the fact that, other than your bundle of sticks attempt to bring guns into it which single handedly changed combat on the planet in history, an unarmed man was just as capable of defeating the godly sword wielders as anyone in a duel. Spearmen, and yes a well trained pikeman with a short pike 9.8! (god forbid I don't have euro-math memorized) feet long as well.
And this one idiotic statement concluded our argument, forcing me to yield to your delusional perception of reality. It would have been fine if you said "could" but instead you stated "just as capable". You remind me of one of those kids back in high school that would only listen to underground music because anything mainstream was obviously distorted. Allow me to quote another person trying to argue with you in another thread from just a few minutes ago.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Maybe, just maybe there is a trend here.
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people use them in face to face combat in the first place.
There is a good reason people do that
http://vimeo.com/4619491
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Turnin on urself while stabbing does not require much skills... I dont see why you keep defending them by saying it requires skill to exploit a bug 0.0" dueling with any other kind of weapon requires much much more than just running around-turnin-stabbing somebody in their face with a bug.
I dont understand gorath, everytime i see a post of urs on the forum its just a desperate attempt to protect something that everybody agrees to say its broken...
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I must disagree with you.
Unfortunately, we're limited to only one set of animations and four attack direction. The game is already too easy as it is, spinthrusting and all the hit-box variants(You can do the same thing with overhead and side slashes too.) have done nothing to the game except adding a tiny bit depth to the otherwise shallow combat.
Clever use of game mechanics, I say.
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I searched google and clicked when I saw this link
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Weight for Length Scales
Attempting to estimate the weight of a pike from its length is a risky business. For any given length pike can vary in weight by a great amount.
http://www.pacgb.co.uk/aboutpike/weightforlength.html
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ROFL
THIS ... is quite the funny fail. At least there are pikes that weight that much. Ill take solace in that.
...damn fish.
All argument aside This is what is needed as a goal:
Make pikes near useless in a one on one fight, while at the same time not making the pike itself useless.
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I haven't noticed this spin stab garbage until the past month or two, now it's all over the place and is becoming problematic. I remember the pole animations were played around with in the recent past... are we sure nothing changed? what about the thrust-block window/size/radius, has that changed? Would it be possible to slightly slow the turning speed (and not necessarily speed) of someone equipped with a very long polearm?
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That or they get longuer stun locked whenever u block their stab! And making pikes and lances unbalanced would be a good idea too IMO.
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For starters, I think the long spear's speed should be lowered quite a bit. Ever try using the heavy lance in melee since the patch? It's pretty damn hard to use, it's just too slow to be effective.
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There are two different situations here. One is on foot. I don't think it is much of an issue personally, though it is slightly fast.
The second one is on horseback with the light lance. They will be riding and after passing you, swing the lance backwards, essentially giving you a backhand slap with the thing, but because the system only registers a hit, it is as if they nailed you going forward with the full speed bonus of the horse. That is the one that "goes through trees" according to some and is the real pain in the ass here.
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This thread is about stupid 180 - 360 spin thrusts.
This is capable for all weapons and is the issue you are grappling with. Turn rate of characters can be lowered, but will the devs decrease everybody's turn rate? Who knows.
The derail of the thread is about:
This notion that the Pike [the 300 length one, which is around the shortest length of a real pike could be] can be used in 1v1 is absurd. Go use it and make posts again please. You are aware it is already 68 speed too and so bad nobody uses it?
The Long spear? yeah you can just spin it enough and use it in 1v1, and people have figured out how to do it! You guys are venting over the easiest blockable worst attack ever. If you think it is fast and so on as people are arguing... use it? It isn't fast. it is long though, but just short enough to be used in 1v1 if only thrusting.
Other, shorter spears? There is nothing wrong with them, in fact they should probably stab faster but swing slower. That is what Spears do best. Although that is not changeable to give them separate animations.
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Slow turn rate down and cap it while stabbing, would help at least.
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If people still want to turn while stabbing I would suggest making it so the weapon doesnt turn with them, but transforms up to a certain degree (joint limitations)
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Pike/long spear is usable in 1v1? Go try that out on the duel server, see how many duels vs people that aren't completely noob can you win.
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Lock rotation on stabs, increase spear thrust damage, increase length of all spears. And also make it so you can block and attack at the same time with spear and shield combo :D
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Lock rotation on stabs, increase spear thrust damage, increase length of all spears. And also make it so you can block and attack at the same time with spear and shield combo :D
^ This. Problem's fixed.
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Quote from: BD_Guard_Bane on Today at 15:46:36
Lock rotation on stabs, increase spear thrust damage, increase length of all spears. And also make it so you can block and attack at the same time with spear and shield combo :D
^ This. Problem's fixed.
^ This. Problem's fixed.
Add this to the overhand attacks as well. No rotation. (not the block and attack at the same time LOL)
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[A]Lock rotation on stabs, increase spear thrust damage, [C]increase length of all spears. [D]And also make it so you can block and attack at the same time with spear and shield combo :D
A: Yes, if B is implemented
C: Maybe, would have to have a case by case basis
D: No. Would allow for spamming. This would destroy the block/hit pattern in M&B. Potentially very game breaking.
Spear and shield needs some love, but there's no quick fix for it.
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A: Yes, if B is implemented
C: Maybe, would have to have a case by case basis
D: No. Would allow for spamming. This would destroy the block/hit pattern in M&B. Potentially very game breaking.
Spear and shield needs some love, but there's no quick fix for it.
+1
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A: Yes, if B is implemented
C: Maybe, would have to have a case by case basis
D: No. Would allow for spamming. This would destroy the block/hit pattern in M&B. Potentially very game breaking.
Spear and shield needs some love, but there's no quick fix for it.
Dunno if it would allow for spamming on the hoplite's part. Spear + shield thrust isn't really on the fast side with any spears that I've seen. I understand why they do spinthrusts and drag the attacks - they glance too much in close and the hitboxes are weird. Its just a lame way to make hoplite playable.
If spear + shield could attack and block at the same time (I dunno if that's even possible to implement), you'd get a support class that can advance while poking. Would make for some cool tactics and a much bigger role for hoplites. They wouldn't be able (with a locked rotation) to spam stab you in 1vs1, so the enemy would have to concentrate on breaking their shields to mess up the formation.
I think it'd be really cool for formation tactics.
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Sorry, that just wouldn't work for attacking blocking at the same time. No. Not in this game.
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Dunno if it would allow for spamming on the hoplite's part. Spear + shield thrust isn't really on the fast side with any spears that I've seen. I understand why they do spinthrusts and drag the attacks - they glance too much in close and the hitboxes are weird. Its just a lame way to make hoplite playable.
If spear + shield could attack and block at the same time (I dunno if that's even possible to implement), you'd get a support class that can advance while poking. Would make for some cool tactics and a much bigger role for hoplites. They wouldn't be able (with a locked rotation) to spam stab you in 1vs1, so the enemy would have to concentrate on breaking their shields to mess up the formation.
I think it'd be really cool for formation tactics.
well think about it this way: if you are blocking when you are attacking, why do anything but attack? I know you're basing the idea on historical use of the spear and shield, but the mechanics would not match up with warband.
This is how things would go down.
Player A is a spear and shielder, player B has a 2h sword.
B: Attacks
A: Does not bother blocking and attacks as well
Because A is protected when attacking (known in some fighting games as "Super Armor,") A's attack lands.
Player B stumbles from attack animation and is forced to do a block before he can even attempt an attack.
B Blocks A successfully
B would normally have the initiative here. However, things would go straight back to the first leg of this demonstration. Player A's attacks will always trump player B's attack until the shield is broken.
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Turnin on urself while stabbing does not require much skills... I dont see why you keep defending them by saying it requires skill to exploit a bug 0.0" dueling with any other kind of weapon requires much much more than just running around-turnin-stabbing somebody in their face with a bug.
You say that as if their single attack direction is the most difficult to defend against, when in reality you're just not blocking down when you should be. When you face a pike or what-have-you the defensive strategy is extremely simple: you block down. The only thing you have to watch for is when they overhead, which is an extremely predictable attack direction as well, given the slow speed of these weapons. In fact, the longspear(ye olde pike) is so slow that if your weapon is fast enough and you attack right after blocking their thrust, it's nearly impossible for the pikeman to block you, because the thrust getting blocked stuns them far longer than any other attack direction being interrupted.
If you know they can spin and attack you with a thrust, there's no excuse not to be prepared for it. Just because they turn away from you doesn't mean they're not still trying to attack you! Be ready, block down. It's easy.
That said, sure, the snake-stab around corners and through people are bullshit, but there's very little about this game that someone doesn't consider bullshit(not to justify bullshit, oh no). As for longspears and other thrust/overhead-only weapons becoming entirely not viable in 1 vs 1 situations, which you guys are seeming to harp on about, how precisely is it fair to people who use those weapons? Okay, so they're also better (theoretical) support weapons, but they're absolutely not better 1 on 1 weapons. You die to a spinthrust because you don't notice it coming and aren't ready for it; it's like a feint that takes twice as long to perform, it's not some magical attack that guarantees they hit you. If you are fighting someone by yourself and they have a long polearm that can't sideswing, they're already at a disadvantage for several reasons (their weapon is slower, they have less directions of attack, their overhead typically deals very low damage, they have to spin into an attack for it to work at all, if they whiff you can get a guaranteed hit before they can recover in time to block) and you're saying it shouldn't be possible for them to retaliate against you at all? Okay, so that'd increase the amount of people using a sidearm with a pike or longspear, that would force people who main polearms for pikes to carry another weapon at all times, is that really better? (Most people using pikes already do this, I reckon)
The situation you're advocating, however, brings to light another fundamental flaw that pike weapons have: You can walk right through them. They have no collision. Pikes are very threatening when you're outside their maximum range, yes, and especially when in groups, but it's so easy to walk right through their weapon that they get one viable attack at you before you're near enough to them to facehug because they can't keep you at bay. If they can spinstab (which, believe it or not, does require practice and a manner of skill to execute succesfully) their chance to survive (beyond merely spamming blocks) goes from non-existent to possible. Without spinstab, walking through a the shaft of a pike is effectively an auto-win for you. Perhaps if you couldn't just clip right through their shaft it'd be okay for them not to be able to spin and stab you, because they could keep your from reaching point-blank range so easily, but as it stands now: It's buggy, it's annoying, but it's easy as hell to defeat.
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Polearm stabs are fine. It's just the Bec that's OP.. at least the heirloomed ones!