cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Senni__Ti on March 29, 2015, 07:18:32 pm
Title: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on March 29, 2015, 07:18:32 pm
So I've been looking though various animations, and the staff right -> left swing caught my eye. At two points in the animation there is some serious clipping (arms through arms, arms through body), and generally the whole crossing over arms thing doesn't sit well with me.
As a result I made an alternative, similar in respect to the left -> right swing, same length as before; though I did try to reduce the instant hitting nature of the swing. (more of the animation is to the center and end)
Feedback, constructive criticism and pras welcome.
(You can change your vote anytime you feel like it, results only show after you voted)
If you want to see what it looks like ingame, put actions.txt into your CRPG module folder, and anim_tydeus_nudges.brf into the resource folder in the CRPG module folder. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/102341596/anim_tydeus_nudges.brf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/102341596/actions.txt
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 29, 2015, 07:33:53 pm
The left->right swing on polearms is the worst swing they have, if you remove the small instant hit window they have then there must be some compensations, like speed or range. Maybe make it more diagonal from bottom left to top right so that it makes natural headhits more common.
Im all for changing the left swing but it actually needs to be buffed while doing so.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on March 29, 2015, 09:16:59 pm
The left->right swing on polearms is the worst swing they have, if you remove the small instant hit window they have then there must be some compensations, like speed or range. Maybe make it more diagonal from bottom left to top right so that it makes natural headhits more common.
Im all for changing the left swing but it actually needs to be buffed while doing so.
This is for the right->left.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Porthos on March 29, 2015, 09:18:55 pm
Hey, stop doing this. Just bring back 2h thrust, you homo :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on March 29, 2015, 09:23:11 pm
Oh, right->left is fine, i dont see why that would need changing. Guess i read it wrong because i want the left->right buffed :O
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Soulreaver on April 13, 2015, 07:14:42 am
Hey, can you create a link-thread in gen. discussion pls? would be nice.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Hellsing on April 13, 2015, 10:53:40 am
Well I'm kinda not sure here.. You mean this wobbel slash I guess but your animation preview is holding a 2h so i can't realy see his wrists (it always looked like he's breaking his hand to arm part :mrgreen:) So I'm kinda fine with new animations espacialy if already done and someone put in effort here :oops:
Keep it up Senni :) -Hellsing
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: pogosan on April 13, 2015, 04:42:06 pm
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 13, 2015, 05:00:14 pm
Is it possible to edit the clipping without messing with the actual properties of the animation? Making it look better without actually changing hitboxes etc? Because i love the rightswing of polearms, and the only good directions of pole are rightswing and thrust.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Switchtense on April 13, 2015, 05:12:34 pm
Totally agree with Gravoth.
95% of my attacks are right->left swing and thrusts.
Overhead has one fucked up hit detection, combined with slow turning speed. Only headhits make it worth using And left->right is plain awful. Bad range and speed. Insta hitting still does not make it worth using really.
So if you do change the right->left swing, then only change the animation itself please.
But you should really change the animation of the left->right swing. It is useless, and much worse: I looks so awfully boring! :D
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on April 13, 2015, 06:32:26 pm
Pretty sure most polearmers only use right->left and thrusts.
I'll have a look at left->right, but I think it's more to do with right->left being a tad OP (instant hits, longer range etc), than left->right being outright bad. I'll also have a look at overhead (that is plain odd).
Hitboxes are tied directly to the animation, it's impossible to change one without affecting the other. There is a line drawn from the main hand (right), that is the hitbox. By moving the hand, you change where the hitbox is.
Currently 1h thrust and poleswings use a pretty lame tactic to get round sweetspots (2h and 1h swings use it to a lesser extent). You simply pile on frames at the beginning and end of the swing, therefore the actual swinging part of the animation is sped up and all falls within a damaging section of the sweetspot curve.
I've tried to reduce that (among the main changes), but still keep the animation competitive. (I'm a bit sick of fighting polearmers who abuse the insta hitting nature)
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 13, 2015, 06:40:45 pm
Nothing wrong with OP if you make other things on par. Such as 2h stab being(or was) strong and the swings are spammable, 1h has all teh swings but no real range or damage, pole has some nasty pokey damage and a godly rightswing. No point in nerfing when they arent game breaking. Instead buff for example the left swing to be on par, could use some range tbh.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Rebelyell on April 13, 2015, 07:24:59 pm
Nothing wrong with OP if you make other things on par. Such as 2h stab being(or was) strong and the swings are spammable, 1h has all teh swings but no real range or damage, pole has some nasty pokey damage and a godly rightswing. No point in nerfing when they arent game breaking. Instead buff for example the left swing to be on par, could use some range tbh.
agree I quit polearm because it was really boring for me. Right swing all the way.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on April 13, 2015, 07:34:49 pm
That's what Tydeus aimed to do, the left->right swing was given more beginning and end frames to make it snappier. So it was/is one of the fastest swings animation wise, with large insta hit window.
Personally I'd like to remove the beginning/end fudge frames and just have the sweetspot covering things. (i.e no insta hits) This would make swing speeds more comparable across polearm/2h/1h, so a 100 speed weapon would be similar across all. But I don't have access to the sweetspot code (pretty sure it's hard coded WSE stuff).
In the mean time, I can try to bring some outliers back into normal territory (pole right->left, overhead and 1h thrust).
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 13, 2015, 07:52:00 pm
I never saw instant hitting as a big problem, its one of the few things increasing the speed of duels. Otherwise little risks will be made because with slow swings and no instant hitting you wont be able to spam as much, and so it will be a block hit block fight which can take forever.
I can say though, that 1h does not need nerfs. Its been buffed over a long time, always being just slightly less viable as far as melee vs melee goes, but now it is basically on par. I could see a 1 or 2 damage overall increase on all 1h's, but thats just me personally. When i fight shielders i take lots of risks because the reward greatly outweighs the risk. Against heavy armors, they tickle.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on April 13, 2015, 07:59:39 pm
I never saw instant hitting as a big problem, its one of the few things increasing the speed of duels. Otherwise little risks will be made because with slow swings and no instant hitting you wont be able to spam as much, and so it will be a block hit block fight which can take forever.
I never said slow swings :P
My goal is to speed up combat, without having things being unblockable. I.e. you will still be able to use footwork to hit quickly, but there is atleast a visible sign of your attack, giving the opponent a chance to block.
Skill>random
There are plenty of current techniques to increase the speed of duels, which few people use. Using footwork to glance swings, chambering and fast feinting.
Not many of the duels I enter last that long (one way or the other), without using insta hits.
EDIT: You can test out the animation and small tweaked 1h & 2h thrust in the OP.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 13, 2015, 08:15:42 pm
My goal is to speed up combat, without having things being unblockable. I.e. you will still be able to use footwork to hit quickly, but there is atleast a visible sign of your attack, giving the opponent a chance to block.
Skill>random
There are plenty of current techniques to increase the speed of duels, which few people use. Using footwork to glance swings, chambering and fast feinting.
Not many of the duels I enter last that long (one way or the other), without using insta hits.
EDIT: You can test out the animation and small tweaked 1h & 2h thrust in the OP.
Its not really random though, and can be prevented with footwork most of the time. I've only once or twice in my entire crpg career been hit by something so quickly that i couldnt see the animation.. And when i get into a duelling feel, they can last pretty long, even with the possible hiltslashes.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Jona on April 13, 2015, 08:23:50 pm
Not sure what the issue is with polearm rightswings when compared to the strong swings from other weapon types. Each class has the ability to insta-swing/hilstslash. With poles it is easiest with the rightswings, with 2handers it is easiest with the left swing (I think, it's been a while since I played 2hander), and with 1handers it is obviously easiest with the leftswing. The only difference here is that the polearm rightswing is also the longest ranged attack direction for a polearmer, while with a 1hander and 2hander the rightswings are longer than their easy-to-hiltslash-attack, the leftswing. However, I don't particularly see the issue with having one animation that is the longest and easiest to hiltslash with because you can only do one or the other. In order to hilstslash you need to be facehugging, therefore it doesn't matter what range that animation has. Sure, it would be great if the polearm leftswing were perhaps tweaked to make it more viable, whether being long-ranged or easier to hiltslash with to entice us to use it over the other swings, but right now the polearm rightswing makes the class balanced with the other two melee weapons. However I will agree that since polearms really only have one good attack direction, spicing things up by offering more alternatives would be much appreciated to keep combat from getting stale.
The issues with the other swings (imo) are that the overhead has shitty hit detection, the leftswing is the opposite of snappy and also short-ranged, and the stab hitbox, ever since all stabs were tweaked, simply hasn't lined up with the animation all that well. To make matters worse, a lot of polearms actually have really bad stabs. Only the spears/poleaxes (or any 2directional pole, really) have a strong enough to stab to be somewhat reliable. Even the bec can have a really questionable stab, not to mention all the axes, maces, bardiches, etc. that have very weak cut/blunt/pierce stabs that are hard to land on anyone with decent armor. Compare the polearm stab to the 1hand stab... which glances more when using a weak stabbing weapon, like a mace? Those 1hand maces almost never glance compared to their larger polearm counterparts despite the fact that their stab damage is very similar. Now I'm not saying that literally everything about polearms except the rightswing sucks... but pretty close to it. The other attacks are very situational.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on April 13, 2015, 09:05:05 pm
Not sure why the hitboxes are off, I'm looking into if weapon rotation is the cause (weapon rotating without the hand).
Polearm stab could probably do with a tweak, but it's not on my immediate todo list.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Jona on April 13, 2015, 09:30:37 pm
Not sure why the hitboxes are off, I'm looking into if weapon rotation is the cause (weapon rotating without the hand).
Assuming you're talking about the overhead swing, I do not really remember much issue with it prior to the polearm overhead tweaking. Then again, it's been a while since then, so my memory might just be fuzzy. Currently, you have to aim for your opponent's right shoulder in order to hit their head (which means you hit to the right of where you are aiming). With longer polearms this gets harder and harder since they have a slower turnrate in addition to being longer and simply harder to judge where exactly they will land, since the overhead is swung diagonally (which might be the cause of half of these issues).
Polearm stab could probably do with a tweak, but it's not on my immediate todo list.
Understandable that the stab isn't really up high on the to do list. The main issue with balancing the polearm stab is that currently the 2d stabby poles have a really strong stab (as they arguably should) yet shorter 4d poles have a terrible stab. Since they both use the same animation, making shorter 4d poles stronger only makes 2d poles OP. It's a tough call to make, where to draw the line.
The only issue with modifying the polearm rightswing is that it is literally a polearm user's only strong option.When you modified the 2handed stab, they still had 3 other swings to rely on (just look at how strong 3d 2handers have always been). Modifying/potentially nerfing the polearm rightswing leaves the class with nothing else, unless you can modify all the other swings to compensate at the same time (since patches are few and far between nowadays). If you really want to tweak one animation, you kinda have to make them all the same priority, and change them all at once, or else you risk losing the entirety of the polearm playerbase until a new patch comes, which we all know can be some time.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Pawiu on April 13, 2015, 10:29:02 pm
have you ever even played as polearm? i play as polearm since over 3 years if you're about to fuck up right swing same as someone did with overhead you better have 3 fkin looms prepared to give away \and left swing from polearm is totaly useless cos its slow and fking way too short and its hard to hit head with it if u want to change something better change that that all polearms except fking op gla and other long axes are held in middle of their shafts which is acctualy pathetic and totaly fuckedup
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 13, 2015, 10:45:54 pm
Nerf polearm and 1h = might aswell respecc krems? Attribute build never sounded so tempting, no skillpoints, only attributes..
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on April 13, 2015, 11:00:00 pm
have you ever even played as polearm? i play as polearm since over 3 years if you're about to fuck up right swing same as someone did with overhead you better have 3 fkin looms prepared to give away \and left swing from polearm is totaly useless cos its slow and fking way too short and its hard to hit head with it if u want to change something better change that that all polearms except fking op gla and other long axes are held in middle of their shafts which is acctualy pathetic and totaly fuckedup
I have played polearm.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Leshma on April 13, 2015, 11:07:51 pm
Nerf polearm and 1h = might aswell respecc krems? Attribute build never sounded so tempting, no skillpoints, only attributes..
Why would they nerf 1H? Polearms are bit strong because they are nearly on par with 2H but are more versatile (that was the reason to keep poles bit weaker than 2H).
What I would like to see changed is weapon length to rear horses. Someone completely fucked up cav by lowering that length to freaking bastard sword polearm mode...
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on April 14, 2015, 01:30:28 am
Why would they nerf 1H? Polearms are bit strong because they are nearly on par with 2H but are more versatile (that was the reason to keep poles bit weaker than 2H).
What I would like to see changed is weapon length to rear horses. Someone completely fucked up cav by lowering that length to freaking bastard sword polearm mode...
I never liked the rearing change.
Not going to nerf 1h, just tweaking the stab end a tad (well suggesting it anyway). It's like the old 2h stab when it you could drag full extension into someone for high damage.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 14, 2015, 04:05:41 pm
Not going to nerf 1h, just tweaking the stab end a tad (well suggesting it anyway). It's like the old 2h stab when it you could drag full extension into someone for high damage.
Sounds good on paper but still the most stabs i see from 1h is from archers because they need the pierce. Its a strong thrust and 1h needs strong animations, but its still not used too much because people favour the swings with scimitars etc.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Rebelyell on April 14, 2015, 06:20:37 pm
Not going to nerf 1h, just tweaking the stab end a tad (well suggesting it anyway). It's like the old 2h stab when it you could drag full extension into someone for high damage.
you can do the same with new one.... even better to be honest, range is just shorter
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Gurnisson on April 14, 2015, 09:32:03 pm
Someone completely fucked up cav by lowering that length to freaking bastard sword polearm mode...
Who gets reared by that though? Someone playing with their eyes closed?
I guess I'm one of few who used left -> right quite a bit on polearms. Use right -> to left more often though, but still use all directions quite a lot.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Mr.K. on April 15, 2015, 01:56:09 am
I guess I'm one of few who used left -> right quite a bit on polearms. Use right -> to left more often though, but still use all directions quite a lot.
I don't understand the complaints of it being shit either, I use it almost as often as the other swing and I've seen GTX now do the same when he switched to polearm. It's not that slow either when you turn it to the right a lot. Less abusable than the right swing for sure, but still not bad at all.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: the real god emperor on April 15, 2015, 04:27:38 pm
give them run
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Pawiu on April 15, 2015, 04:32:59 pm
yeah players who run in rags and with spam op shit weapons say that poleswings are op and want to remake them gg
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Mr.K. on April 15, 2015, 07:33:00 pm
yeah players who run in rags and with spam op shit weapons say that poleswings are op and want to remake them gg
I currently play mainly my 27/18 plate armored Poleaxe warrior because it's the easiest way to do well in this mod. Rags and spam is much, much harder. You're sounding like Panos when you complain about every single other playstyle except for your own.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Pawiu on April 15, 2015, 08:08:26 pm
poof now everyone suddenly is using poleaxe no more rags and agi builds simply magic
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: W0LF on April 15, 2015, 08:59:49 pm
I personally play a high agi 21/24 or 18/27 polearm build and i find as long as you are competent at blocking you can easily spam someone. I find it quite easier than a 27/18 which i have tried.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Bonzereli on April 17, 2015, 06:05:11 am
Hey, stop doing this. Just bring back 2h thrust, you homo :rolleyes:
^ This. I pay you $$ for this....
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Kaoklai on April 18, 2015, 12:53:50 am
What would you do with the transition between rightswing and the other attack directions? Right now "hand-order" on the haft remains constant between them all (which may be to blame for the awkward animation in the first place?). With the new rightswing and the old everything else, you have to switch hand-order, which, as far as I can tell, would involve letting go of the haft momentarily with at least one hand. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, just wondering how it would be handled.
Random thoughts:
Have you considered changing the overhead to the same grip as your proposed rightswing (i.e. right hand closer to the head)? If the rightswing does end up being changed, I think that would make more sense visually. Also it sort of gives you a "balance" of two attack animations using one hand-order and two using the other.
Have you played around at all with the idea of an attack animation that starts with a wider grip that narrows as the swing progresses? Found this video where they seem to do that quite a bit:
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Senni__Ti on April 18, 2015, 02:10:04 am
What would you do with the transition between rightswing and the other attack directions? Right now "hand-order" on the haft remains constant between them all (which may be to blame for the awkward animation in the first place?). With the new rightswing and the old everything else, you have to switch hand-order, which, as far as I can tell, would involve letting go of the haft momentarily with at least one hand. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, just wondering how it would be handled.
Random thoughts:
Have you considered changing the overhead to the same grip as your proposed rightswing (i.e. right hand closer to the head)? If the rightswing does end up being changed, I think that would make more sense visually. Also it sort of gives you a "balance" of two attack animations using one hand-order and two using the other.
Have you played around at all with the idea of an attack animation that starts with a wider grip that narrows as the swing progresses? Found this video where they seem to do that quite a bit:
You let go as the weapon rotates anyway with current. But yeah, some good ideas here.
Title: Re: [Poll] Alternative polearm swing (right->left)
Post by: Jona on April 18, 2015, 02:26:13 am
Anyone who has ever used an axe to split logs could have made better polearm animations than the devs of warband...