cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Algarn on January 04, 2015, 01:29:57 am

Title: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 04, 2015, 01:29:57 am
... and trying to make it a bit like mid 2012 would be good to make some people come back.

If you're lazy/unwilling to understand my reasonment, scroll down all this. If you're just an idiot that isn't even willing to read the TLDR part, well, eject from thread.

Why rewanping balance ? Because I remembered how fucking awesome it was when there was actually some teamplay, when people going full rambo actually had what they were looking for : a retarded way to die alone on battlefield. I would love to get back to some kind of population around 70 players on EU1, because I'm growing tired of the usual bullshit that consists in checking if the server's pop is around 40 so I can join for 30 mins before I GTX because people take 5 arrows and still fight/allies prefer charging into ennemies with not a single clue about tactics/over powered mechanics, weapons, builds, and classes people abuse. It makes it incredibly annoying to play, really.

So, I would like to say basically, to anyone who would like to see some people coming back, or coming simply; to read what I wrote some time ago in this sub forum.

(click to show/hide)

Even thought some things can seem to be unbalanced/strange in this proposal, I believe it's one of the only way to actually fill again servers. Why is it so important ? Because when there are a shit load of people, it not on the same scale : you can't compare a street fight and a real battle. A real battle means teamplay, organized assaults and defences, clans putting on togethers to fight the other team. For that you need a people. And to have some people playing, you need to improve their experience, whether new or old. To get an oldmy old friend playing, you need a server with a decent population, with some intense and tactical fight going. To get new players playing ... you need to tell them to play after you improved their arrival to the mod. Yes, things have been done, but more is needed to do. As Panuru/Rico said on the thread, giving advices and builds on the website along with a description of the role, strength and weaknesses of a class is a way to do it. But lets go a bit further, and introduce a message to log on cRPG.net to create an account, and making its creation extremely simple, in detailled steps, with literally all things written (if they made an error, they should be able to find out why on the website, and how to correct it).

TLDR part :

Change balance, make it like 2012, but keep some things like the wpf spread, the shield bash, the roll (tweaking San is willing to do seems appropriate). About balance changes that could be needed :

1/ reduce a lot throwings price, and more generally, all ranged items's prices, to make it more affordable for new players.

2/ increase the randomization into ranged items (pin point accuracy jarids/longbow that don't kill in one headshot is exactly the opposite of common sense if you ask me). For that, a plain buff of damage would be fine (damages automatically reduce accuracy, that's the objective). Ranged players aren't snipers you know, but throwers, archers, and crossbowmen. They need to KILL, not to fire accurately some ridiculously weak sticks to the ennemy.

3/ Create a second wpf spread for ranged, that is two times (or something around) weaker than the melee spread. For example, a guy gainning like 40 wpf in one ranged spec should get 20 wpf in melee ones, or something around, to enforce fighting instead of kiting, and allowing more huscarl builds (shielder + throwing).






Maybe it's naive, but there's always some hope. Of course, if people come and say "but I want to keep fucking everyone with my playstyle without risk/resistance from other classes, I'm not ready to sacrifice/adapt my OP build to try to fill servers again to have some decent fight", this proposal doesn't stand for anything. Oh, and sorry for english.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Rico on January 04, 2015, 04:39:32 am
3/ Create a second wpf spread for ranged, that is two times (or something around) weaker than the melee spread. For example, a guy gainning like 40 wpf in one ranged spec should get 20 wpf in melee ones, or something around, to enforce fighting instead of kiting, and allowing more huscarl builds (shielder + throwing).

Considering the recent bow damage nerfs, increase of arrow weight and reduction of ammo count, this is a small compensation archers should get. The class will still be weaker than in any other era of the mod before the last patch, but it may become viable again.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: San on January 04, 2015, 04:57:58 am
I picture cav and ranged as the easy-mode. They're just as skill-based at high level, but at lower levels, they test a different set of skills than melee with a few more hard/soft counter mechanics.

I think cav 0 leg armor should be removed and ranged buffed without making things too out of hand.

(click to show/hide)

I also think that wpf should just be 70-100 minimum and ignore what it says on the site if you have below that, but I haven't made a thread about it yet.

The limb change adds importance to accuracy vs rate of fire, and gives significance to both strong (body shots while avoiding limbs) and weak attacks (headshots). Increasing weapon damage is difficult because builds wildly vary, and damage can increase too much/little, while locational damage is for final damage.

Armor/loom change decreases loom differences, prioritizes strengths of builds, and nerfs average armor unless you wear heavy gloves that hurt your wpf even more. Agi would still be great, but a little more exposed to danger.

I think melee only needs difficulty changes, mostly on the armor front.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Molly on January 04, 2015, 09:06:42 am
...wants a plain ranged buff and masks it as "I have the best of the mod at heart and want people to come back" - bullshit.
Ranged was one of the major factors that drove people away in the first place. Algarn and his exploiting build before the patch is one of the directly responsible persons.

Obviously just the wrong persons left...
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Akronus97 on January 04, 2015, 12:13:42 pm
People didnt leave due to annoying archers, they left because the teams were unable to hold together, which ended up by being killed by archers at the end of the round. Blaming archery is just the easy solution for people who dont want to put a lot effort into the topic.
Also, I agree that level 37 should be decreased to 36. I have a level 37 char myself and it is just to easy to make 2h builds like 27/21 and deal huge damage.
Another good idea is buffing support classes. Support classes are necessary for teamwork on every server, which is totally missing at the moment. It would be so nice to see some players again who actually dare to go hybrid, there are just so few of them because pure builds are just too superior :(  Also slighty stronger ranged would force the players to adjust. If support builds, maybe with shield skill, were stronger, more players would chose to play them. This way there could be a better balance between ranged and melees.
Unfortunately I cant comment the balance of the game in 2012 because I started with crpg in 2013.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: korppis on January 04, 2015, 12:44:33 pm
People didnt leave due to annoying archers, they left because the teams were unable to hold together, which ended up by being killed by archers at the end of the round. Blaming archery is just the easy solution for people who dont want to put a lot effort into the topic.

I left Battle in late 2012 because of archers. A lot of good city/village maps were removed because someone thought that every map had to be open plains with no sufficient cover. I know few who left for the same reason but didn't like siege enough to migrate there.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Akronus97 on January 04, 2015, 01:12:01 pm
You have to watch it in a bigger context: Archers just annoy cause of the stupidity of the other players to group up and to come up with some basic ideas. You dont even need to perform amazing and complicated tactis, the basic stuff is already enough. Making the game a bit more tactical with more support classes and slighty stronger classes could make the situation overall way better.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 04, 2015, 01:46:58 pm
...wants a plain ranged buff and masks it as "I have the best of the mod at heart and want people to come back" - bullshit.
Ranged was one of the major factors that drove people away in the first place. Algarn and his exploiting build before the patch is one of the directly responsible persons.

Obviously just the wrong persons left...

Basically, you misunderstood my intentions. If I wanted to play something completely over powered, I'd go native to kill people with two shots, regardlessly of the armor they wear. I want archery, throwing, and crossbows to get more randomization, reducing accuracy and improving damage. Therefore, what you said about having a plain buff is incorrect. I loved when there was more teamplay, even clans units like Byzantium's pikemen and spearmen, Fallen archers squad, Mercs's shielders squad, and so on. I don't play this game as much as I used to. In my original post, I wanted basically making it easier for new players to get in a position to actually help on the battlefield, instead of taking a randomly created build with completely wrong choices concerning hybridization. Also, I actually wonder if you carefully read everything I wrote.

To San :
Changes you are going to make seem to be fair, but what do you think about making pikemen and spearmen better for new players ?

PS : Molly, I also played other things than ranged, my scores were even better. I know to play other things, but it offers nothing of the experience I wanted to live when I downloaded the mod. If you want to say my build/class is fucking over powered, go on, but as long as you refuse to even give a try to a ranged class, you'll not understand anything. It basically became a survival game for me, counting my shots, having to stay far from the battlefield since otherwise, I'm a dead man, etc... But you can't know it, since you always refused to get your hands dirty and become even for a few minutes a ranged scumbag.

PPS : wrote something about cavs.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on January 04, 2015, 03:06:57 pm
All seem decent ideas. Particularly I do like the ideas on throwing, the first class that I properly enjoyed in cRPG and possibly the one which got me addicted.

As for keeping new players interested with links to the site, good builds etc. how about tutorial videos on good ways to play each class, which can be done by the players?

I am curious however as to the actual reasons why people (coming from them directly) left the game. The mod is old after all.

ALSO there was a post on a mix between the old XP system where it made people stick together and our current XP system which got a lot of votes and opinions, what happened to this?
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 04, 2015, 03:09:44 pm
Thread died probably. If someone could find back a link, I'd add a quote as a part of my OP.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Switchtense on January 04, 2015, 06:17:44 pm
Ranged is clearly underpowered at the moment. So where are all the players that quit due to ranged being overpowered?

Anyway, I think the vast majority of players quit for good. Whether it is because they really can't be arsed to come back, or they won't even hear of a new patch that is supposed to revert cRPG back to an earlier version-ish.

However, I think the changes that Algarn mentioned would make it a bit more enjoyable for the majority of people still playing.

Everybody saying "I will quit if ranged is buffed again" just needs to work as a team more.

I remember when I started playing actual teamwork being used on EU1. Open field battle, nowadays you would quit and say "Fuck that ranged fest!"
But back then 2 shieldwalls were formed and people hid behind it, occasionally trying to advance. Just like in Strat battles.

TDLR;
Buff ranged and supports, make life harder for all those 2h heroes going yolo on EU1 and make teamwork essential.
If the players won't accept to use teamwork, then there is literally nothing that can make this mod better, simply because the players refuse to do their part.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: San on January 04, 2015, 07:59:25 pm
To San :
Changes you are going to make seem to be fair, but what do you think about making pikemen and spearmen better for new players ?

For the revival patch, a number of spears were buffed (just look at the likes of boar spear), pike/long spear weight was reduced, and a few of the shorter 2D polearms were buffed. I don't think they can be buffed much more in terms of stats except for some damage on the pike/longspear which I'm hesitant and I trust someone like Gurnisson's opinion about it. I think they're pretty good already, there's just not much of a need for them since so many other weapons can handle cav. Only devs can do much more such as stagger and turn rate. Score also had an influence on how strong some classes are viewed ever since the reduction of points from proximity.

Even if ranged/cav is buffed, as long as counterplay is strong and the exploitative parts of those classes are kept in check with support weapons/shields, I think it'll work out.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Akronus97 on January 04, 2015, 08:29:50 pm
l.
If the players won't accept to use teamwork, then there is literally nothing that can make this mod better, simply because the players refuse to do their part.

Well said!
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: HappyPhantom on January 04, 2015, 09:44:48 pm
I think melee only needs difficulty changes, mostly on the armor front.

.. got to here and was like: Yes! High tier armour needs it's STR requirement raised (I've thought this for ages - 15 STR too low for plate) but especially after patch of destiny!!

Then read this:

Ranged was one of the major factors that drove people away in the first place. Algarn and his exploiting build before the patch is one of the directly responsible persons.

... which I think is a pile of crap.

I left Battle in late 2012 because of archers. A lot of good city/village maps were removed because someone thought that every map had to be open plains with no sufficient cover. I know few who left for the same reason but didn't like siege enough to migrate there.

From what I can tell, archery is now the weakest it's ever been - it's not like 2012 for us pew pew's.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Switchtense on January 04, 2015, 09:55:19 pm
except for some damage on the pike/longspear which I'm hesitant and I trust someone like Gurnisson's opinion about it.

Don't know what Gurni says but I think neither Long Spear nor the Pike need a buff.

They are difficult weapons just because of the way they work, especially the Pike. New players just have to go through a period of struggling to learn to play with them.

For some reason there has been an influx of Long Spear/Pike users. Most of them don't do very well with them, but the ones who know how to play them simply dominate the enemies most of the time (Provided the team is not shit)

A damage buff or noticable speed buff would just make more people use them, realise they still can't handle them well and stop using them. While the good pikers have a big advantage due to said buff.


Obviously I wouldn't mind being buffed for once, but it isn't needed :)
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 04, 2015, 10:02:06 pm
Don't tell me dividing price by 1.5 or 2 on the longspear/pike to make it a common infantry weapon is a crime. This kind of weapon would be one of my last choice, since you barely get any cav with that (they all avoid you like plague), there's almost no chance to win a duel with it, and even less chance to be alive after a 2v1. Oh, and it's 3 slots. Giving a nice chance to new players to support their team with those items is the way to go, instead of giving them useless 1h swords they don't know how to operate.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Switchtense on January 04, 2015, 10:16:11 pm
Reducing the price would be acceptable I guess. Since it does not affect the gameplay.

But new players would still glance 7/10 stabs. And 2 of those 3 hits would be teamhits.


Especially the Pike, but also the Long Spear, require very well timed stabs to hit the opponent efficiently. On top comes abusing of mechanics. Turning or tilting into the stab to land the hit, whereas a normal frontal stab would glance. Footwork is important as well to get stabs in and not glance.

While at the same time they can grab a 2h or Bardiche, run in with some armour and swing like a nuthead and get a kill or at least do some damage.
So I am not sure reducing the price will make any difference in players using Long Spear and Pike. The only thing would be making them 2 slots. But then every 2h hero would grab a Long Spear or Pike.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 04, 2015, 10:44:09 pm
Reducing the price would be acceptable I guess. Since it does not affect the gameplay.

But new players would still glance 7/10 stabs. And 2 of those 3 hits would be teamhits.


Especially the Pike, but also the Long Spear, require very well timed stabs to hit the opponent efficiently. On top comes abusing of mechanics. Turning or tilting into the stab to land the hit, whereas a normal frontal stab would glance. Footwork is important as well to get stabs in and not glance.

While at the same time they can grab a 2h or Bardiche, run in with some armour and swing like a nuthead and get a kill or at least do some damage.
So I am not sure reducing the price will make any difference in players using Long Spear and Pike. The only thing would be making them 2 slots. But then every 2h hero would grab a Long Spear or Pike.

Can't tell, but maybe an increase of the zone of damage peak of the two handed polearms's stab (not the 2hs, I meant the pike/longspear stabs) would make it easier to use for new players. But I don't think balancers will forcefully agree...
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: San on January 04, 2015, 10:49:19 pm
I guess I didn't read your post closely enough, wasn't even thinking of price. I'll try to respond to as many points as I can from the OP.


  • buff ranged in the ways I listed in my post (hate me for that, I have an opinion that differs from yours).
1/ reduce a lot throwings price, and more generally, all ranged items's prices, to make it more affordable for new players.

2/ increase the randomization into ranged items (pin point accuracy jarids/longbow that don't kill in one headshot is exactly the opposite of common sense if you ask me). For that, a plain buff of damage would be fine (damages automatically reduce accuracy, that's the objective). Ranged players aren't snipers you know, but throwers, archers, and crossbowmen. They need to KILL, not to fire accurately some ridiculously weak sticks to the ennemy.

3/ Create a second wpf spread for ranged, that is two times (or something around) weaker than the melee spread. For example, a guy gainning like 40 wpf in one ranged spec should get 20 wpf in melee ones, or something around, to enforce fighting instead of kiting, and allowing more huscarl builds (shielder + throwing).

A lot of throwing is already cheap. I think the only throwing weapons that are overpriced are probably javelins (cause it's currently UP) and above. I think that the cheaper ones may be too weak. Hybridizing also noticeably decreases your throwing power. At least some of them have lower weight now.

I think this randomization you speak of can be handled by more extreme locational damage multipliers. I think that randomization in accuracy doesn't do too much to help. Sometimes your inaccuracy lands you a hit. It's ironically easier to dodge when you know exactly where the ranged weapon will land.

Changing shared wpf require a UI update on the website. I think it'll be easier to accept a behind-the-scenes change such as increasing the minimum wpf to be a value above 1, something around 70-100. It won't be perfect since it still kinda hurts other hybrid builds, but it'll be simple to do. I'm also in favor of ~170-180 wpf cap. High enough to be fast and indirectly raises importance of IF to keep that final wpf value.

Quote
  • Buff support melee classes, like pikers and spearmen. Decrease a lot the prices of the 1d weapons, add some of them, make them easier to handle for new players (improve stabbing with those slighly maybe ?) and maybe do kinda the same for 2d weapons (not talking about the high tier ones like the english bill, in fact, there should be some kind of axes used as a 2d weapon). -> If you're too weak, either take a shield or a pike, and stay near of your mates, or take ranged weapons, and skirmish/give support at the cost of your melee ability. To avoid them being overused because OP, buff slighly other weapons directly on their fighting abilities. No need to explain it's to make it having more benefits for old players that know how to play. I'm not that sure about this being needed, but I believe new players also go support.

I think the stats are quite good for these weapons, but you raise an interesting point on the price. The price is lined up equally with any other weapon. Maybe it would benefit to have artificially cheaper weapons for these classes. Even if you aren't skilled, you'll still make money and have fun, at least for the middle tier weapons.

Quote
  • To counter the pike and 1d spears buff, buff again cavs. Even thought I really dislike cavalrymen, they're a part of the battlefield, and if everything is getting buffed, they deserve some love too. Horse archery, horse crossbowmen and particularly horse throwers need to be unfucked. The horse ranged should play a support role, definitely, but they should be way less accurate than the foot version of the class (except for horse throwing, which is actually hard, and inaccurate).

I think removing the 0 armor legs would go a long ways.  Devs wanted cav nerfed. HT is pretty easy with an optimized build. HT is anti horseman even more than the others, play that role and you'll make a large impact.

Quote
  • Buff damages of medium tier weapons (thinking of the simple sword and the likes), they're completely useless, even at +3 rank.

One of the largest changes of the revival patch was the buff of low to mid weapons. The likes of the simple sword can't get any better without making it OP. How is 95 length, 102 speed, 25 pierce, and 30 cut at +3 useless? It'll do extremely well in a cheap gear environment and is only poor against plate (though 23-25p on stab is still good).

Quote
  • Level 36 should be the new level for characters at 37. This will make OP builds become less OP, simple as that. Some builds are viable only if they are level 37, otherwise, they always lack something (athl, if, or whatever).

Up to the devs. Some builds are also complete at 36 and others at 38, depends on what you're trying to do.
Quote
  • Even if you disagreed with the things I did write, you will however agree on the fact new players should be helped even more : give them the website adress when they log in, and improve the website by adding tips, builds, and listing the characteristics of each build.
A dev would need to do this. I think Harald did a great job, but there are still people who need help creating an account and getting properly started.

Can't tell, but maybe an increase of the zone of damage peak of the two handed polearms's stab (not the 2hs, I meant the pike/longspear stabs) would make it easier to use for new players. But I don't think balancers will forcefully agree...

Requires a dev. Only thing balancers can do is increase damage or tweak the animation itself. I think the damage scaling for stabs just follows the animation, otherwise you'd get instastabs and late dragging stabs. Damage is probably the most efficient way.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Nightmare798 on January 04, 2015, 11:06:32 pm
Ejecting!
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 04, 2015, 11:26:56 pm
Why should there be more randomization ? Because Acke, a thrower, managed to get a headshot on me from 30 metters, but I was still alive with a 32 armor helmet and 65hp. He said once he had something like 6PT. Sorry, but two things are retarded, the fact I'm alive with a massive piece of steel in my head, and the other fact, which is how the hell could he land an headshot like that. That's why there should be a damage buff, since "high" tier throwing weapons are just illogical, accurate, but terribly weak at the same time, not even talking about axes, that are barely doing anything.

When talking about prizes, well, you have to remember throwers were used to be skirmishers in history, and it's not that expensive to take a piece of wood and stick some steel at the end. Look how much it was used in strat. No throwers at all in battles because their equipment is just incredibly expensive, and consider also the fact they have to take 2 stacks of throwing most of time, even more. So, it leads to massive repair costs, as for archers with arrows. Reducing ranged items costs would be cool, even for crossbows. Heavily armed melee fighters had way more money to spend on equipment than archers, crossbowmen, or simple skirmishers, since they were simple hired men at best, with just enough money to buy some light armor after they purchased their weapons. I know that realism isn't compatible with the game, but it'd be nice to have some representative elements from history in the game.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: San on January 05, 2015, 12:49:25 am
32 armor, 37p, 6PT, 170wpf, a headshot should deal  ~75-80 damage, 35 without the headshot multiplier (forget if multiplier was 2.2 or 2.3). Some damage is then lost over a distance and a little more if there was negative speed bonus. Add randomization and this 75 damage may actually be lower under favorable conditions. 6PT is supposed to be weak, get 8-11 PT. Decrease accuracy and it's not like you'll never get headshot. You may just get headshot when they weren't aiming there, actually. My pure strength thrower was dealing 25-30 damage to 18+ weight body armor with a strength build and throwing spears and a possible upcoming change increases that final damage by an extra 22%. On the flip side, bad shots will deal poor damage.

Stones is the least expensive weapon in the game.

Throwing is inherently flawed for strat and needed its price cut in strat. Throwing weapons consist of a bow+ammo or crossbow+ammo. You can cut costs with other ranged by minimizing the number of bows and crossbows, and just getting a lot of ammo. This is not a good example. For battle and siege, you typically have 12-24 high rate of fire and damage ammo for a 3-5 minute round.

With 4 stacks of throwing weapons, you're only ever going to repair it once a round. having to pay for 4k gold worth of weapons every round is chump change compared to 7-8k for cheap melee gear. Change it to 8k for the most expensive throwing vs. 12-15k for melee and the most expensive throwing is only slightly overpriced.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 05, 2015, 02:43:34 am
Don't tell me dividing price by 1.5 or 2 on the longspear/pike to make it a common infantry weapon is a crime. This kind of weapon would be one of my last choice, since you barely get any cav with that (they all avoid you like plague), there's almost no chance to win a duel with it, and even less chance to be alive after a 2v1. Oh, and it's 3 slots. Giving a nice chance to new players to support their team with those items is the way to go, instead of giving them useless 1h swords they don't know how to operate.

You obviously dont use longspear to duel, and if you are in a 2v1 then you are in deep shit indeed but this only happens if you did your main job bad. When the big clash happens the side with better pikemen win because with them you can hit people basically no matter your position, you can force them to all down block and through this your team can roll through them. The only real threat in a big fight is if someone dives through to kill you, or if someone has a longer weapon (hoplites fear longspears, longspears fear pikes while pikes are easier to dive and punish).

Using the weapon to kill cav is nice sure but like said they avoid you, it just wont happen unless they get reckless.

I would not buff them in anyway (except removing turnrate nerf) because they are insanely powerful, just slightly harder to use than most other melee weapons. Also to not encourage more people to use them because they are annoying as hell to play against.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: San on January 05, 2015, 03:03:43 am
2513: Fauchard
2974: Boar Spear
3267: Bamboo Spear
3273: Military Fork
3695: Spear
4797: Light Lance
5474: Lance
5474: Pike
5477: Long Spear
6185: Red Tassel Spear
6821: War Spear
7383: Battle Fork

After looking at this, aren't these weapons all cheap?
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 05, 2015, 10:06:12 am
Depends to what you consider expensive and cheap. As a poor player, I'd consider an expensive gear by a final repair cost above 1500 gold. A pike/longspear isn't supposed to cost 5500g (383g). I'd see the price around 3000g to be honest, seeing how underused these weapons are. And also, 6000 gold for pieces of wood with a pointy end is just too much, war spear and red tassed spear should cost around 5000. Remove 1 damage if you have to, but a spear is still a damned piece of wood, and isn't supposed to cost as much as a sword, and isn't supposed to wound that much on swings (LiveyourLife aka Hearst is the perfect example that war spear should use less blunt damage).
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Switchtense on January 05, 2015, 11:28:25 am
Depends to what you consider expensive and cheap. As a poor player, I'd consider an expensive gear by a final repair cost above 1500 gold. A pike/longspear isn't supposed to cost 5500g (383g).
Repairing the pike is quite cheap actually. Even for me and I am constantly broke as fuck :D
You are not gonna use it with plate anyway. Piking is only really effective in combination with light - medium gear. Otherwise you are too slow to react to enemies accordingly.

I'd see the price around 3000g to be honest, seeing how underused these weapons are.
They are underused because they are more difficult than all those 4 directional weapons where you just have to swing and hope for a nice hit.

You only see the same people regularly running around with a Pike or Long Spear. The ones that are good with it.
You don't see many 2 directional polearm users either. Same reason.
People like to charge the enemy. Doing so with a pokeypolearm requires more skill than with a swinging weapon, because you cant feint the shit out of the enemy as effectively as with a 4 directional weapon. Also they are much easier to block (Even though downblocking seems extremely difficult seeing how many people fail at it)

And also, 6000 gold for pieces of wood with a pointy end is just too much, war spear and red tassed spear should cost around 5000. Remove 1 damage if you have to, but a spear is still a damned piece of wood, and isn't supposed to cost as much as a sword, and isn't supposed to wound that much on swings (LiveyourLife aka Hearst is the perfect example that war spear should use less blunt damage).
The material of the weapon shouldn't matter. Otherwise people will say "Make Scotttish Halberd 2k gold. It only is a wooden stick with a chunk of metal on one end!"
Also blame the speed bonus for the amount of damage they do.
200 weapon proficiency with shitloads of athletics and that war spear kills you faster than you can even realise.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 05, 2015, 07:03:01 pm
Depends to what you consider expensive and cheap. As a poor player, I'd consider an expensive gear by a final repair cost above 1500 gold. A pike/longspear isn't supposed to cost 5500g (383g). I'd see the price around 3000g to be honest, seeing how underused these weapons are. And also, 6000 gold for pieces of wood with a pointy end is just too much, war spear and red tassed spear should cost around 5000. Remove 1 damage if you have to, but a spear is still a damned piece of wood, and isn't supposed to cost as much as a sword, and isn't supposed to wound that much on swings (LiveyourLife aka Hearst is the perfect example that war spear should use less blunt damage).

You are thinking with too much realism in mind.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 05, 2015, 07:30:37 pm
You are thinking with too much realism in mind.

Actually, if having some realism implemented could enforce teamplay on servers instead of massive yolo charges on half empty servers, I'm proud to be thinking with too much realism in mind. Would accept being killed in one hit if I could kill someone with three arrows.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 05, 2015, 10:09:35 pm
Actually, if having some realism implemented could enforce teamplay on servers instead of massive yolo charges on half empty servers, I'm proud to be thinking with too much realism in mind. Would accept being killed in one hit if I could kill someone with three arrows.

Nothing will enforce teamplay, and teamplay doesnt really work without communication on TS. Yolocharges are fine by me as long as people stick in a clump. Also it sounds like you are saying that realism would bring more people to the mod which probably isnt true. And reducing prices on pikes and nerfing sideswings on spears probably wont bring any people in any way, and isnt needed for balance.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 05, 2015, 10:41:07 pm
Nothing will enforce teamplay, and teamplay doesnt really work without communication on TS. Yolocharges are fine by me as long as people stick in a clump. Also it sounds like you are saying that realism would bring more people to the mod which probably isnt true. And reducing prices on pikes and nerfing sideswings on spears probably wont bring any people in any way, and isnt needed for balance.

Yolo charges are the most retarded thing ever - but I don't think I should keep talking about it since our conceptions of balance, realism, etc... are different, it's a matter of convictions. I loved the shit out of this game, until ranged was nerfed to shit, along other classes that weren't melee based. The result was in my opinion a gank/duel server instead of an actual battle server, where "teamplay" is just another word for killsteal. When I saw mercs activity going down, I was mostly alone on battlefield with my banner, and it allowed me to figure how freaking hard it is to play a class that requires protection while 95% of players you meet don't give a shit about you being alive or dead, since they already are 100 meters farther than you. It's this kind of thing I want to change. Not to mention everytime yolo charge fails because they charge into open/a huge archer nest, instead of using the most basic tactics, they keep charging and crying about how over powered classes that killed them are. For example. When archers were still a bit effective, they were told to shoot horse archers, but the thing is, melee smartasses let them die in stupid occasions that could have been avoided, and get killed by horse archers at their turn. Heskey said something around that, and I think it illutrate well what this mod became :

Quote
Why players should try to understand mechanics [of those classes] and get better if they can cry on forums to get them nerfed to ground ?


On the same note, I wonder now if some of the changes I proposed in the OP could be implemented if we bug hard enough a dev about it (mostly like website changes), and if there could be some kind of official poll to see if they want to see more teamplay or if they prefer things to stay like they are now.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 05, 2015, 11:09:00 pm
I think archers are still fine, they definitely arent terrible. You want people to cover you the entire round? just learn how to fend off enemies instead, stop relying on others. Archers dont require protection, just positioning and decent melee skills.
Yolo charge is the only viable thing you can do with no preparation time and no people on any sort of voice com.

Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Algarn on January 05, 2015, 11:39:32 pm
I think archers are still fine, they definitely arent terrible. You want people to cover you the entire round? just learn how to fend off enemies instead, stop relying on others. Archers dont require protection, just positioning and decent melee skills.
Yolo charge is the only viable thing you can do with no preparation time and no people on any sort of voice com.

You think basically after all that time played with a bow I'm bad at playing melee and finding a good spot ? Yes, I'm not a fucking pro guy, but I'm still able to reach 3:1 k/d more or less on true melee builds when playing battle. And even tho you're better at melee fighting, I doubt you'd do much better with 5 ATHL, 5 PS, and 32 wpf and any short sword. You'll get spammed, outranged, and killed in two hits, regardlessly of the armor you wear. Oh, and you'll hit slowly and do no damages to guys wearing 60 body armor or above. It's not even about being a baddie there, it's about having the common sense to admit normal archers, and most high level archers almost never win a fight in a fair duel. Oh, and quit trying to say I suck hard at finding a hill/roof, considering the scores I do. Taking other people for bad players because they don't have the same opinion as you is offending.

Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Gravoth_iii on January 05, 2015, 11:49:28 pm
Im just speaking out of my own experience, playing 21-24 right now i can easily fight back with 100 1h wpf. I also hit decently hard, horses die quite fast, headshots generally oneshot etc. I never rely on having someone defend me, i can outrun or just kill most that come at me or otherwise stall them untill help arrives.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Switchtense on January 06, 2015, 02:05:52 pm
I have been playing archer quite a lot recently.
Have not played much before the big nerfs, but I must say that they are pretty crap at the moment.

You are required to shoot at low armoured targets because tincans won't die with 3 shots, unless you hit their head (At least twice with 10PD and +3 Longbow, my high score was shooting a tincan's head 4 times til he dropped)

At the same time you cannot do well in melee at all. I needed to have 10PD to at least deal a little damage, so I was left without any athletics and only 4PS.
There is no way you can win a duel against some 60 body armour guy. You glance no matter what. Even turning and running into +3 Espada stabs didn't hit properly and probably only tickled the other guy.

Then also since you cannot kill enemies with less than 3 arrows you need to have two quivers. Result is you are slow as shit since they are incredibly heavy. Making you even less proficient in melee combat unless you drop your bow.

TLDR;
Archery is completely underpowered since even as a dedicated archer you are not nearly as efficient as any other class, even hybrids.
As a hybrid archer you are basically shit at archery and alrightish at melee.
Title: Re: Rewamp some things in the mod...
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on January 07, 2015, 01:44:13 pm
But if archers are then buffed non tincans will suffer greatly. Perhaps it's not the archers that are the problem but the armour.

Try increasing requirements for high tier armour in addition to the already suggested 2 quiver merge and we could have success.

Archery damage is fine against low and mid level armour, get the headshots and they drop which is I think what was intended. Problem is it's too easy to get the high level armour while still being fairly agile. I'd also suggest possibly increasing the effectiveness blunt has on heavier armour if that's possible so hammers would be a good sidearm for archers if they got into that situation.

My thinking for melee is archers are weaker in melee because they're specialised elsewhere, tincans should be weaker in melee cos they're tanks. Can't have it both ways.