cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Falka on November 29, 2014, 04:21:04 pm

Title: Decrease levels
Post by: Falka on November 29, 2014, 04:21:04 pm
This game isn't supposed to be played with average level 36 and troll builds (STF) at lvl 35. Decrease all levels by 3-4, with STF at lvl 32-31. MOre dead this game can not be.

PS. It's not gonna happen I guess and I doubt it would make big difference, but I just wanted to share my opinion.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Nordwolf on November 29, 2014, 04:33:14 pm
I disagree. Yes there are some problems with high levels, but they are only due to some mechanics not being adjusted.

Some of them:
 - Not adjusted difficulties for weapons and armours.
 - Wpf/speed bonus is too big with completely agi based builds benefitting too much from it.
 - Some other changes that are not so significant but need to be fixed as well, can't really mention all of them

Overally I like the changes made with this patch, except the changes to HA, which are absolutely awful and unfair in my opinion.

Also about fixes, please change something to flags on battle with low population (less then 10vs10), they almost always spawn instantly even when 6 people per any team is not reached.

Also it's "dead" not because of the patch at all. In fact it made me play more of this game lately.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Falka on November 29, 2014, 04:46:30 pm
Also it's "dead" not because of the patch at all. In fact it made me play more of this game lately.

I don't say last patch is the reason why it's dead.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Switchtense on November 29, 2014, 05:59:33 pm
Both points are valid I guess.

Either adjust the speed bonus and requirements for everything, or decrease the levels again.

Fighting against agi whores wielding Morningstars, Steel Picks and whatnot is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 29, 2014, 06:32:58 pm
I like the new levels, allows for a lot of fun builds, and good hybrids.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Kafein on November 29, 2014, 06:56:00 pm
I prefer the game with higher levels, there's more diversity of builds and it's not as HP spongy as before.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Algarn on November 29, 2014, 07:31:09 pm
it's not as HP spongy as before.

I don't understand this part at all : people are having more STR and IF at the same time, and it makes them spongy as fuck. Sure, hybrids can exist now, but pure melee builds with 18/30 and 27/21 are the winners of the patch.

Changing the new level for 33 instead of 35, with higher levels (current 36/37) around 36 would be way smarter,
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Grumbs on November 29, 2014, 11:04:15 pm
Yes. Game is glitchy and players have too much power, which mostly makes the game easier for the best players
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Akronus97 on November 29, 2014, 11:52:48 pm
Agreed in most points. Either mechanics of game have to be changed again or the level system(lower levels again, maybe a bit higher than before). I really liked in this patch that it is way easier to level up which makes is easier for new players. Still, many builds just became totally annoying, most of those are agi-builds (dont missunderstand me, I dont have problems with agi based players, but their weapons, their armor and their speed are just ridiculous atm). But I think we all know that the chance is quite low that this is going to be changed.
A different point would be nerfing all ranged. Imo archers became too weak and throwers too stronk. When I go to eu1 I see infs destroying everything (I am a inf myself, but it just becomes boring at some point)

Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on November 29, 2014, 11:57:37 pm
I like the fact that the huge gap between high level tryhards and lower levels is now a lot smaller. Just like Nordwolf noted, speed bonus is what shits on this game. It is too overrated and gives trolly agi builds a lot bigger an advantage than it is supposed to.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 30, 2014, 04:30:36 am
High agi builds are a nuisance? havent noticed, they drop in one hit. Havent noticed that much difference in general movement speed and weapon speeds, barely any tbh.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Akronus97 on November 30, 2014, 05:35:41 pm
Have you seen agi players with like 18-27 build and heavy armor? Damn fast, very high damage and they still tank away quite a lot. Speed bonus was too much before but now its just....
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on November 30, 2014, 05:45:31 pm
Have you seen agi players with like 18-27 build and heavy armor? Damn fast, very high damage and they still tank away quite a lot. Speed bonus was too much before but now its just....

Havent seen any, no.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Kafein on November 30, 2014, 07:03:54 pm
I don't understand this part at all : people are having more STR and IF at the same time, and it makes them spongy as fuck.

Sure, people have slightly more HP now, but they also have more PS. All in all, attack power increased more than HP and armor, so the average number of swings to kill decreased.

Sure, hybrids can exist now, but pure melee builds with 18/30 and 27/21 are the winners of the patch.

And anything in between. Everybody worth caring about won.

Changing the new level for 33 instead of 35, with higher levels (current 36/37) around 36 would be way smarter,

No, because that would reinstate power differences based on grind.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Sparvico on November 30, 2014, 09:18:00 pm
I find the game much more enjoyable now that most people are around the same level instead of having most oldfegs at level 35 and most new payers quitting before they begin. The game is more challenging for me with everyone on a somewhat even playing field.

I think another issue people have is they equate high str with more damage and high agi with less. IMO (just mine though) a 27/18 build should do equal damage per swing to a 18/27 build. That allows players to choose what style of combat they like best without having to sacrifice killing potential. High str, again imo, should have more considerably more HP than high agi, but the same damage per swing. Whereas high agi is much faster than high str, but not be able to take more than 1-2 hits. This would leave str builds for those that enjoy tank-style play, and high agi for those that enjoy gank-and-run style play. Tanks would of course be vulnerable to swarms, and high agi to getting one shot. Adjusting the requirements for armors would be necessary, as well as perhaps tweaking IF a bit (i.e. the first four levels of IF give you +3 hp each, the next 4 +2 HP each, and anything above that +1 hp each).

If you play high strength it should be because you enjoy feeling like a tank, not beacuse you think you need the PS to do damage. Same with agi, play it because you like being fast, not because you feel like you need the speed bonus.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: WarLord on November 30, 2014, 09:22:58 pm
I find the game much more enjoyable now that most people are around the same level instead of having most oldfegs at level 35 and most new payers quitting before they begin. The game is more challenging for me with everyone on a somewhat even playing field.

I think another issue people have is they equate high str with more damage and high agi with less. IMO (just mine though) a 27/18 build should do equal damage per swing to a 18/27 build. That allows players to choose what style of combat they like best without having to sacrifice killing potential. High str, again imo, should have more considerably more HP than high agi, but the same damage per swing. Whereas high agi is much faster than high str, but not be able to take more than 1-2 hits. This would leave str builds for those that enjoy tank-style play, and high agi for those that enjoy gank-and-run style play. Tanks would of course be vulnerable to swarms, and high agi to getting one shot. Adjusting the requirements for armors would be necessary, as well as perhaps tweaking IF a bit (i.e. the first four levels of IF give you +3 hp each, the next 4 +2 HP each, and anything above that +1 hp each).

If you play high strength it should be because you enjoy feeling like a tank, not beacuse you think you need the PS to do damage. Same with agi, play it because you like being fast, not because you feel like you need the speed bonus.

This! I play str-based builds because of more hp (tankyness), while I feel like agi based builds make even more damage and are faster, just take less hits to kill them.

But all in all I think the game never was as balanced as now.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Sparvico on November 30, 2014, 09:30:21 pm
Right, tone down the speed bonus a smidge and make heavy armors require more str. IMO (using body armor as the easiest example) anything over 50 armor pre heirloom should need 21 str, and anything that can hit 50 or more post heirloom should need 18.

Right now as a 18/27 build I can use any armor in the game and mostly retain my speed bonus. That is what is broken about high agi builds.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Leshma on November 30, 2014, 09:48:33 pm
I think that armor and weapon requirements should be significantly raised and that gloves should be further nerfed. As a player without loomed armor set and wearing light armor I die quite easily, in one or two hits. Balanced build, level 34 most of the time. Can't really spam, have to block exceptionally and time my attacks.

Average player I'm facing is level 36/37, with optimized douchebag long weapon spam build, in fully decked medium armor (rating between 60-75). They don't even have to know how to block because of glitchy netcode. Just keep spamming to get a lucky hit here and there, rely on high armor to enforce glances etc.

Balancer's job should be to identify most used/optimized or otherwise known as OP build/gear and tone that down. Anyone who plays regularly knows what is the most OP build, gear and weapons.

Most players in this mod are still very bad, but they acquired better gear and levels over time which allow them to perform better than they would if everyone were playing on even field or in balanced environment. Should be noted that many players wouldn't even play cRPG if there wasn't a way for them to take an advantage, be it better gear or simply being part of clan stack.

Bottom line, cRPG has always been broken and will stay that way until it dies like a poor, glitchy bastard it always was. But knowledge acquired over years of playing cRPG should be used in creation of M:BG to avoid doing same mistakes.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Something I suggested years ago but Tydeus completely ignored it. Wpf should be hard caped at 175 for every proficiency, game is acting funny after you go pass that bar.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Kalp on November 30, 2014, 10:09:27 pm
Tanks would of course be vulnerable to swarms

That's why I regret that I can't hit more than one enemy with the same swing  :lol:
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: San on November 30, 2014, 10:53:26 pm
I'll list a few changes that I really tried to push before the previous patch hit. Feel free to agree/disagree.

-Armor wpf changes: It wasn't feasible to raise the power of PS or increase HP, so I felt it was good to play off the bonuses of strength: less wpf mitigation for strength and more for agi. I was expecting agi builds to lose a good 5-8 wpf on average and strength gaining around 10-15, making it so that it would be tougher for agi builds to outspam everything unless they're wearing very light armor. It was tied to IF since it's the most melee-centric skill outside of PS. Cav, ranged, and agi builds lose some things when they raise IF, while strength gains much more from -3 strength and filling up IF now.

-Glove nerfs: I'm satisfied with how it is now, except for maybe how leather gloves aren't too great vs. mail mittens still. My original idea with it reduced armor and gained/reduced the weight when looming depending on the glove. It would've reduced armor by around 3-5 on average.

-0-2 shield skill and board shield buffs: Shields receive a double bonus from the skill and having access to better shields. Even with the buff, a 4 shield skill + 4 shield skill shield is still going to be much more durable than 2 shield skill with a 2 shield skill shield. They still break relatively quickly in melee, but help against ranged if a problem arises. It's worth it to loom these shields now.

-mid-tier 1h buffs. I wanted 1h swords to be fast, but weak (speed buffs to low tier swords). The long weapons remain slow, but have somewhat good cut and pierce. Pierce weapons would be relatively quick, powerful, and "light" and blunt would be slower and heavy for increased knockdown and stun (mostly against other 1hs and light 2h). Axes were made by someone else (wanted the fighting axe buffed more lol) but that was also a welcome change to me.

-2h/polearm blunt weight changes. Weapon stun should be an intended feature, as long as you don't have a high combination of weight+speed+length. The blunt stab boost was warranted, too, considering the models. Poleaxes are generally very powerful since they're like normal weapons with the added perk of bonus to shields, but w/e.

A lot of other changes were pre-emptive global changes for what was expected might happen (or mandated) should the STF level be increased by 5 and average level by 3. Definitely not perfect since it required a lot of guessing into the future along with the introduction of new items, but I hoped there would be more frequent patches afterwards that would've adjusted anything noticeably out of place.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: 722_ on November 30, 2014, 11:52:56 pm
How do you feel about the long spear San?
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: San on December 01, 2014, 12:10:36 am
I'd like to have slightly better turn rates, but Gurnisson made a thread that decreased the Long Spear's and Pike's weights and I agreed with him on it. Not much else could be done, but it should've helped a little bit.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Leshma on December 01, 2014, 12:37:09 am
When I made the "bring back high levels" suggestion, I did because I thought people would use extra points for hybrid builds which were common on the actual battlefield (like they are in native Warband). Two years later you 'revived' cRPG with a patch that includes high levels, but players abuse that to create completely unrealistic OP or trollish builds. Which is to be expected out of this community. And I'm way past the time when I cared about it.

But if you really want to work on balance, you should explore hybrid builds more. They bring fun to the players, help balance and raise overall upkeep that way keeping expensive gear usage in check. Leads to more realistic battlefield etc.

You'll most likely fail if you try to do so, because this community likes to dress up silly and behave accordingly to their looks and mental state (took me awhile to realize that huge portion of player base 'consume' this mod in altered state of mind, under influence of drugs and alcohol).

Most veterans (those who started playing 6 months before I did) of this game prefer hybrid and balanced builds and understand why are they important. Sadly, very few of those are still playing.

Love the mod for what it is, a silly freak show with swords. it won't become something entirely different at such old age.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 01, 2014, 01:29:28 am
Rocking 27-21 this patch, hits very hard with consistent damage compared to agi where it may vary a lot depending on the speedbonuses. Tanky as a motherfucker aswell, str build is the way to go now imho.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: MURDERTRON on December 01, 2014, 09:28:48 am
When I made the "bring back high levels" suggestion, I did because I thought people would use extra points for hybrid builds which were common on the actual battlefield (like they are in native Warband). Two years later you 'revived' cRPG with a patch that includes high levels, but players abuse that to create completely unrealistic OP or trollish builds. Which is to be expected out of this community. And I'm way past the time when I cared about it.

But if you really want to work on balance, you should explore hybrid builds more. They bring fun to the players, help balance and raise overall upkeep that way keeping expensive gear usage in check. Leads to more realistic battlefield etc.

You'll most likely fail if you try to do so, because this community likes to dress up silly and behave accordingly to their looks and mental state (took me awhile to realize that huge portion of player base 'consume' this mod in altered state of mind, under influence of drugs and alcohol).

Most veterans (those who started playing 6 months before I did) of this game prefer hybrid and balanced builds and understand why are they important. Sadly, very few of those are still playing.

Love the mod for what it is, a silly freak show with swords. it won't become something entirely different at such old age.

There is no reason to hybridized melee now.  If you get bored of one type, simply wait a week and respec.  Obviously, you won't hybrid two ranged classes, or you'll get fucked on slots.  Since there are so many available points, and it costs such a small investment to get into crossbow, everyone is just doing that.  The only way to avoid something like this is to cap attribute points at something like 24 or 27, which no one wants to do.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Umbra on December 01, 2014, 09:50:52 am
Game is better with a smaller end game gap. They could have achieved the same thing by buffing xp required for lvls 32,33 and making 34 impossible. But i think its more fun this way.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Leshma on December 01, 2014, 12:32:25 pm
There is no reason to hybridized melee now.

That is correct, no reason at all. What I'm talking about is forcing hybrid builds on players, just like they did when free wpf was removed and true STR builds obliterated.

I was always pro hybrid because it solves many problems:

Last 3 years or so I'm completely against the very idea of cRPG 'pure' builds (Paul was the reason why pure builds survived, luckily he's not in the picture anymore) and pro choice bullshit and consider that as start of slow death of cRPG. cRPG is better than Native because of vast choice of gear, fixed many bugs and other silly design choices changed for the better and the very nature of having permanent char you can upgrade. But the system which is in place of upgrading has always been rubish, devs are aware of that and that system won't be in M:BG. Character stats and heirloom system in this mod has never been done very well, despite us putting up with it every day for past 4 years or more.

First signs of disease were peasants on invisible horses (Finished aka Michael and his followers), but that was just a short term cold. Cancer begun developing with Danish Greatsword wielding Kuyak heroes. That is the moment when devs should step up and change the course of the mod into something else, to not allow it turn into freak show. But they didn't and only thing we left today is a freak show mod. And no one takes cRPG outside of this community serious. As much I have credibility for being serious person in this community, same level of credibility have cRPG mod among outsiders. All because wrong design choices.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 01, 2014, 12:45:15 pm
That is correct, no reason at all. What I'm talking about is forcing hybrid builds on players, just like they did when free wpf was removed and true STR builds obliterated.

I was always pro hybrid because it solves many problems:
  • In case of melee/ranged hybrids everybody is fighting on the same level, no more qq how something is unfair if everyone has similar options (allow deployable ladders, even if them being a bit bugged)
  • gives different melee options to players (spear/sword) and forces them to adapt to different weapon multiple times during the round, instead of becoming familiar with just one weapon and its (broken) reach
  • higher chance for upkeep, because carrying more items
  • players don't look as retarder like when they carry only 2H strong and most importantly don't act as retarded whenever something ranged hits them

Last 3 years or so I'm completely against the very idea of cRPG 'pure' builds (Paul was the reason why pure builds survived, luckily he's not in the picture anymore) and pro choice bullshit and consider that as start of slow death of cRPG. cRPG is better than Native because of vast choice of gear, fixed many bugs and other silly design choices changed for the better and the very nature of having permanent char you can upgrade. But the system which is in place of upgrading has always been rubish, devs are aware of that and that system won't be in M:BG. Character stats and heirloom system in this mod has never been done very well, despite us putting up with it every day for past 4 years or more.

First signs of disease were peasants on invisible horses (Finished aka Michael and his followers), but that was just a short term cold. Cancer begun developing with Danish Greatsword wielding Kuyak heroes. That is the moment when devs should step up and change the course of the mod into something else, to not allow it turn into freak show. But they didn't and only thing we left today is a freak show mod. And no one takes cRPG outside of this community serious. As much I have credibility for being serious person in this community, same level of credibility have cRPG mod among outsiders. All because wrong design choices.

I like freakshow crpg c:
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Algarn on December 01, 2014, 12:52:48 pm
I like freakshow crpg c:

Even if the cost is decently populated servers.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Leshma on December 01, 2014, 02:37:20 pm
Well, I like it too. And wouldn't change it at this point. Just said what could be done in the past but didn't.

But... next medieval game has to be serious one. Why? Because cRPG was pretty much the only game I played for past 4 years. I don't come to cRPG to fool around when I'm taking a break DotA, WoW, EVE Online or whatever game people consider as their main.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: McKli_PL on December 01, 2014, 02:40:04 pm
Would be nice if devs will increase weapon and armor req's , about levels i dont know for me is one sh*** high/low level if someone reached 32 lvl game is playable
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 01, 2014, 05:37:46 pm
Even if the cost is decently populated servers.

Implying any patch would bring more players into the game, its dying of age not imbalances.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Patoson on December 01, 2014, 05:46:44 pm
Yes. Game is glitchy and players have too much power, which mostly makes the game easier for the best players grinders
Fixed.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Switchtense on December 01, 2014, 06:28:20 pm
Fixed.

It was good the way it was.

Yes you have a big advantage if you are level 38, instead of 35. But then again, same thing applies to when you are level 35 instead of 31.

The problem is that a level 31 deals a whole lot less damage in the hands of a capable player than a level 35. Even if the other players have an equally increased level.

Everybody might have an extra 7IF now, or an extra athletics or power strike. But you have to admit, that +1 Power Strike is a whole lot more meaningful if it is -let's say- Varadin or Cooties playing, rather than Staplecat_123.

And a capable level 35 can easily kill an average level 39. But that was the same thing from level 31 to 36.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Leshma on December 01, 2014, 07:10:18 pm
Level 38 players? Really? Isn't that like 650 million XP?
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: San on December 01, 2014, 07:28:24 pm
I've always felt pure builds were best when being a hybrid for so long and switching in 2013, but a lot of the community disagreed back then. I think melee/ranged wpf should be shared (it doesn't make realistic sense for ranged wpf sharing but it gives options) while toning down max wpf/wpf scaling. Either that or remove damage scaling from wpf, since that makes things like throwing-melee hybrids unviable since they lose too much damage in both, most likely impossible to do without the devs.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: MURDERTRON on December 01, 2014, 08:08:51 pm
It was good the way it was.

Yes you have a big advantage if you are level 38, instead of 35. But then again, same thing applies to when you are level 35 instead of 31.

The problem is that a level 31 deals a whole lot less damage in the hands of a capable player than a level 35. Even if the other players have an equally increased level.

Everybody might have an extra 7IF now, or an extra athletics or power strike. But you have to admit, that +1 Power Strike is a whole lot more meaningful if it is -let's say- Varadin or Cooties playing, rather than Staplecat_123.

And a capable level 35 can easily kill an average level 39. But that was the same thing from level 31 to 36.

Is staplecat123 a real player?
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Switchtense on December 01, 2014, 08:51:45 pm
Is staplecat123 a real player?

Now it is :D
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: lombardsoup on December 02, 2014, 09:41:06 am
Let this shit die already, four years of balance/unbalance only to hear crying either way is enough.  Start fresh with M:BG, and repeat the cycle all over again  :)
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Akronus97 on December 02, 2014, 04:17:58 pm
With that low amount of money they got? I hope so, but I somehow doubt it :(
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Byrdi on December 02, 2014, 11:44:04 pm
Please just decrease all levels by 3. It is such an easy way to adjust this mess.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Algarn on December 03, 2014, 12:15:53 am
I've got an idea for a patch that will fix everything, further reduce the damage of ranged, and do a 10-point boost to the damage on all 2handers, that'll fix everything.

Heskey, why reduce damage while you can also remove it entirely from the game ?
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Akronus97 on December 04, 2014, 03:40:08 pm
I almost never see ranged ruling anymore, I always play melee, but it seriously just became ridiculous, everyone is thrower now. I think archers should regain some of their strength again, but it wont happen because as long as everyone complaines although nearly nobody tries to work together with his team (doesnt mean I do it). Crpg community destroying itself again....

The only one who should not be allowed to play archer is algarn (because his arrows are annoying :) )
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: AwesomeHail on December 04, 2014, 03:57:49 pm
I almost never see ranged ruling anymore, I always play melee, but it seriously just became ridiculous, everyone is thrower now. I think archers should regain some of their strength again, but it wont happen because as long as everyone complaines although nearly nobody tries to work together with his team (doesnt mean I do it). Crpg community destroying itself again....

The only one who should not be allowed to play archer is algarn (because his arrows are annoying :) )

I always defend Algarn with my everything, and im only doing good when defending him :D
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Algarn on December 04, 2014, 06:39:55 pm
I almost never see ranged ruling anymore, I always play melee, but it seriously just became ridiculous, everyone is thrower now. I think archers should regain some of their strength again, but it wont happen because as long as everyone complaines although nearly nobody tries to work together with his team (doesnt mean I do it). Crpg community destroying itself again....

The only one who should not be allowed to play archer is algarn (because his arrows are annoying :) )

You love them, admit !   :wink:
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: San on December 04, 2014, 08:18:10 pm
Everyone is a thrower now? Weren't they saying that throwing was UP a few weeks ago, too? I guess it makes sense since a group of throwers mixed with infantry at the frontlines can destroy full-infantry formations.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: San on December 04, 2014, 09:10:36 pm
I have something for increasing body shot damage and decreasing limb damage to make use of the new accuracy buffs and this affects final damage instead of raw, which is easier to deal with, but it's sitting in limbo along with stuff already committed a month ago, lol.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Grumbs on December 04, 2014, 11:59:58 pm
Everyone is a thrower now? Weren't they saying that throwing was UP a few weeks ago, too? I guess it makes sense since a group of throwers mixed with infantry at the frontlines can destroy full-infantry formations.

High level anything is OP with agi + ranged
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Algarn on December 05, 2014, 01:06:33 am
I have something for increasing body shot damage and decreasing limb damage to make use of the new accuracy buffs and this affects final damage instead of raw, which is easier to deal with, but it's sitting in limbo along with stuff already committed a month ago, lol.

Seemed good enough to give back some killing power to archery from what I saw ... but won't happen until devs press the patch button. :(

Also, grumbs, for the freaking 100th time, play archery and prove it's OP, since you only played crossbow from what I saw.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: San on December 05, 2014, 02:40:21 am
I made the thread on the 25th of November and it only needs 1 more vote for that. We were talking about buffing a lot of the bows/crossbows but tbqh more discussion needs to be had on that, especially with regards to weight and ammo and the whole balance forums going dead.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Hecur on December 05, 2014, 07:43:53 am
one more vote!
take mine!
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Mr.K. on December 05, 2014, 03:08:16 pm
When archers get protected they are not underpowered as we've seen on the Strat battles. What makes the class hard to play is the terrible map rotation and retarded players on EU1. At the moment archers have no hard counters as cavalry is way too weak to effectively go against an archer stack. However now that the only effective builds for archers are 9PD and 10PD they are lacking the movement speed to run from or fight the infantry, forcing them to basically to run behind their infantry formation not shooting at all. At least that's my experience as an archer. If you do however get protection the class is still as strong as it ever was and way too accurate. Buffing archery would be a very bad idea, but we need to have an incentive to have lower PD builds as well.

Back to the topic though, I agree with the too high levels. It makes the game really hard for average or below average players and gives too good opportunities to go with a full hybrid thrower, xbow or cavalry. Setting the level "cap" lower (25-31) would force cavalry for example to be either good on horseback and shit on foot, or bad at both. Same for shielders that need both agi and str, the patch basically brought back the indestructible shields of boredom which is one of the reasons I haven't really played this game for the last few weeks.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: NJ_Legion_Icedtea on December 05, 2014, 04:01:00 pm
I really don't see that high levels are the problem apart from in high populated servers since I don't get the best FPS and miss some swings on high agility based builds.

If the levels were decreased by 3 and say everyone chose to have 3 less agi the game would be slowed down and people may survive 1 more hit but in comparison to everyone else you will not be faster or slower.

In regards to ranged I don't play ranged that much so can't make an accurate argument for or against it. However, typically speaking I find myself getting hit from ranged before I enter melee, hurting me but not killing, but can ultimately contribute to me losing in a fight. Maybe this can be shown by increasing the points ranged gain?

I don't know I am just a scrub.
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Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: spiritus on December 07, 2014, 11:19:48 am
I dont know what everyone means if i wear plate on spiritus i still get 2 shot.... and i dont do a shit ton of damage either, still takes 4 plus wacks to down people even when i kick and land faceshots
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Switchtense on December 07, 2014, 12:10:05 pm
Agi whoring is what is the problem with the increased levels.

People running around with 4ps and 12 athletics swinging their insanely fast katana or quarter staff dealing a lot more damage than someome with 12 power strike.

Speed bonus needs to be nerfed massively.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Kalp on December 07, 2014, 12:23:38 pm

People running around with 4ps and 12 athletics swinging their insanely fast katana or quarter staff dealing a lot more damage than someome with 12 power strike.

You forgot to mention they are running around in rags  :P  Fucking peasants  :lol:

Increase difficulty of weapons and armors  :!:
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 07, 2014, 12:54:38 pm
Agi whoring is what is the problem with the increased levels.

People running around with 4ps and 12 athletics swinging their insanely fast katana or quarter staff dealing a lot more damage than someome with 12 power strike.

Speed bonus needs to be nerfed massively.

As a 12/39 on my main since patch i can say that i definitely dont hit like a 12ps build, not even like a 6 or 7. Also i get oneshot by damnnear everything.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: AwesomeHail on December 07, 2014, 01:50:05 pm
Yeah, Fighting vs. spammers with 12 fps is near to impossible. if its a fast wep (katana, fast 1hs, or just uber much wpf) i cant see the swings, forcing me to invest more in shield ":|

The servers being laggy and etc also is contributing to it, and the constant DC of internet also helps..
With my 4yr old laptop i cant do shit against these high-end monsters some are using
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Leshma on December 07, 2014, 01:59:52 pm
nvm
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Grumbs on December 07, 2014, 02:13:28 pm
As a 12/39 on my main since patch i can say that i definitely dont hit like a 12ps build, not even like a 6 or 7. Also i get oneshot by damnnear everything.

Agi over 21 needs a big nerf. If possible i'd change the req for athletics/WM from 3 to 4, so you could get 8 in each at 32 agi. Maybe even do it for PS too

The game just isn't made for these types of builds without causing issues
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: MURDERTRON on December 07, 2014, 05:31:24 pm
Clearly EUs should have  no input on any type of changes if their reasoning for any change is "my europoor computer or internet connection can't keep up"
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 08, 2014, 12:01:55 pm
With 16 PS i dont oneshot anything, unless ofc they're an idiot and give me all the speed bonus by running at me, but if they did that tbh an 18/24 build would oneshot them if they had a GLB and the enemy had light armour.

It's extremely noticable, i have 37 armour most of the time cos no loomz, cos i dont think loomz should be necessary. And i always die in 2 hits. This can be 2 hits from a katana, this could also be 2 hits from a steel pick (one left swing one overhead normally). 2 hits from a generic longsword guy, 2 hits from an espada, scimitar or axe guy.

I know my build was a deliberate troll build, but i still fully expected that i'd do slightly more damage than normal with 16 PS, with the obvious tradeoff being a slow unbalanced weapon, no Wpf, and the footwork of 0athletics. Literally the easiest thing in the world to block, a 1hand swashbuckler could stand there all day and block such a build, if roles were reversed even i could block that with a sickle. The fun thing is that when i do connect i do the same damage as if i was tryharding and making athletics do all the damage for me, 'oooooooooooo look at me, i'm rocking back and forth as i swing and tuuuurning into my swings in a really exaggerated fashion!'.

Also there seems to be an exciting new meta arriving, it's called 'spam and swing so fast that Heskey's comp begins to struggle with animations and lag like crazy', it's an awesome strategy, it's where the person who spent the most on their computer wins. I think it's great that this mod has moved in more of a direction of amazingly fast unpredictable animations that only the best most stable ping and better computers can handle and reliably perform with. Truly all games should learn from our example, pffff, why make it so that all the 'casuals' can compete with their low end comps. It's hilarious that my stupid 50/3 build performs better on the duel server than siege, because i dont get insane lag.

I oneshot quite a bit with my 9PS flamberge, its all about the balance, too much PS over athl and you lose out on damage. Balance builds still rule the world.

Agi over 21 needs a big nerf. If possible i'd change the req for athletics/WM from 3 to 4, so you could get 8 in each at 32 agi. Maybe even do it for PS too

The game just isn't made for these types of builds without causing issues

Im not seeing any issues :O Why does it need a big nerf? what makes it so strong over other builds? Cause i have not seen any agibuilds stand out over str or balance since the patch.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Leshma on December 08, 2014, 12:45:18 pm
No need to nerf agi or ath stats, just limit gear available to them. Think that 24 STR should be requirement for most weapons longer than 110/120 (2h/polearms). Currently, having 18 str means 18/27 build and that's heavily agi oriented build. In no way even remotely balanced build. Balanced builds are 21/21 (for low levels and hybrids), 21/24, 24/21, 24/24. If you don't play as balanced build, you shouldn't be able to use armor heavier than 10 weight and long weapons, simple as that.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 08, 2014, 01:27:16 pm
Instead of nerfing, buff the counterpart. Allthough i think a 39/12 build would be just as strong as a 12/39 build. Nerfing only slows down the game and makes it less appealing to those who already know class strengths and weaknesses. Allthough decreasing skillgaps would make the game appeal more to new players, but i think its too late to try anything like that. Game is good as it is IMO, everything seems viable, while balance is still the strongest.

Yep, i saw somewhere i think San posted the tested 'optimal' build for damage and i'm fairly sure it was 27/21(27/24?) or something. It's just a shame that as you deviate in the Agi direction away from that you continue to gain speed and maintain pretty good (though lower) damage, but as you move in the Str direction you lose speed and also lose damage.

But you become tankier. Dont underestimate this, im playing str build right now and i can tank so many hits its pretty crazy (being used to agi) sometimes after a fight i tank like 5 hits and i still see my healthbar sitting nicely at 50%.

A pure str build is probably equally viable to a pure agi build. They just fill completely different roles.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: Gravoth_iii on December 08, 2014, 03:16:14 pm
I know that my view amongst Str-whores is an uncommon one, because for some reason i'm constantly poor and have no loomed armour. So i'm one of few Str-whores who dont have high armour at all. Normally these discussions start from a base assumption that the agi-player has rags and the str-player has plate, or at least high armour and decent IF. As Cassia pointed out, i am extremely squishy for a str-whore xD so i normally dont take the whole 'agi characters take fewer hits' argument so seriously, but i forget that i'm in a minority who dont wear good armour.

I guess i need to remember that, Str-builds are designed with tanking and high armour/IF in mind. My view is biased by the fact that anyone RPing a ninja with or without looms, actually has more body armour than me. From that point of view i guess i expected a glass cannon build like mine to be more cannonish than it is, in exchange for being so squishy (though launching people is it's own reward). 0 IF, 36 armour and 0 athletics, i have noone to blame but myself xD

Str build in rags work, but then you also need SOME athl, pure str probably need plate armor to keep em going. I did something like 30/18 in rags, and it was surprisingly good. The damage was incredible, and i felt pretty tanky for using nothing but wool.

I guess one could say pure str is pretty bad without plate, while pure agi cant even chose to use plate, but rocks in rags.
Title: Re: Decrease levels
Post by: San on December 10, 2014, 02:38:47 am
Yeah, mostly optimized builds and sets were considered against each other. The more armor you're wearing, the more strength you'd want.

A strength build can still survive an extra hit in light armor, but you're still going down in a few hits. An agi build with high armor will take a heavy hit to wpf without sufficient IF. If you're going to be taking IF anyways, it'll just be easier to focus a bit more on strength since an agi build with 65hp in armor isn't going to tank all that much and one with 50hp isn't going to swing godly fast, just slightly faster than others in that armor.

Balanced builds get the best of everything, but the IF change helped curb off 24/24 from dominating everything, and instead going 21/24, 24/21, 18/27, or 27/18 for the most reliable pure builds.