cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Leshma on November 03, 2014, 10:36:42 pm
Title: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Leshma on November 03, 2014, 10:36:42 pm
Give 1 armour points to 0.3 weight glove class to make 2 AR gloves. They used to be 0.1 weight, under old system that was 0.4 effective weight compared to 2 effective weight for next tier (0.5x4). Difference in armor rating when fully loomed is 3 points (5 vs 8) and difference in effective weight has decreased in favor of heavier gloves. These light gloves have been choice of the 'ranged' but that isn't the case anymore, due to changes in wpf formula. You kinda left them in a bad place atm.
Do something about shield balance. It's a mess atm, which is result of trying to make certain shields more popular. Balancing based on looks has always been a bad idea, but at this point is completely out of place in a mod with 'oh so many' item combinations.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: San on November 03, 2014, 10:41:20 pm
Shields such as..?
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Leshma on November 04, 2014, 12:21:05 am
Well, the other buckler (steel buckler, the 'expensive' one) seems oddly placed. It's a good looking shield but I'm not sure does that warrant stats being so strange. If I'm not mistaken, shield skill affects only radius of the shield or width stat. That makes round shields superior to those with both width and height stats. Maybe this was changed in the meantime, haven't been playing for a long time.
Internal shield balance confuses me in general. Not sure how you rank them. Noticed they have pretty much the same price (differences in price aren't that big), which should mean they are all good but still, I'm kinda used to linear progression of items (tiers still exist among weapon categories, not pronounced as before but still there).
Just for the record, I'm not using a shield and not planning to use one. Just something I've noticed, that seemed strange to me while browsing the shop.
Question regarding gloves buff. What is the threshold for lordly status of +3 gloves? Or is it manually chosen? Because if giving gloves 2 AR, means they will become lordly, then it isn't a good idea as a thought it was. If they still keep reinforced prefix, then it works as intended (6 AR vs 8 AR for next glove tier, 2 AR difference for 1.2 effective weight).
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: San on November 04, 2014, 12:53:46 am
I think it's both width and height for shield skill. I tried some buckler builds wtih 8-9 shield and couldn't really be hit around it, except for my toes.
Here's How I think of shields: Let's say 50 to 62 armor reduces damage by 6. 20 hits and you've saved 120 hp vs the other shield. It takes an even smaller armor difference on the lower end to decrease damage, making 4-5 armor increases quite huge. If something seems out of place, that would be appreciated
I think for internal shield balance, you mean how shields don't become too much better for every difficulty increase? This is because that shields get objectively better as the difficulty increases, which stacks with the defense boost from shield skill. Someone with 2 shield skill and a Horseman's Heater shield will have it break much earlier than someone with 4 shield and a Knightly Heater shield. For someone with high shield skill, there's little point in using the lower tier shields although they'd be decent, outside of the 4-skill tier lacking a lightweight shield option like the others have.
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Question regarding gloves buff. What is the threshold for lordly status of +3 gloves? Or is it manually chosen? Because if giving gloves 2 AR, means they will become lordly, then it isn't a good idea as a thought it was. If they still keep reinforced prefix, then it works as intended (6 AR vs 8 AR for next glove tier, 2 AR difference for 1.2 effective weight).
Items are given a tag for what boosts they receive. Gloves just use the same tags as armour. Admittedly, they are balanced at +3 to address the large boost in effectiveness they get. If I were an archer, I wouldn't wear gloves vs ones at +0. 1.8 effective weight for 5 armor vs 3 effective weight for 8 armor isn't too bad of a tradeoff, could be better though with custom loom tags for gloves.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Teeth on November 04, 2014, 12:18:53 pm
I personally see very little point in not going for a round shield, getting hit or shot around my shield is frequent with anything around the 40 width range.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Umbra on November 04, 2014, 01:51:53 pm
Haven't they removed the forcefield bonus you get from taking more shield skill?
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Algarn on November 04, 2014, 02:29:36 pm
No. I see it everyday, bucklers blocking shots while the arrow was aiming for the foot... Always makes me mad at some point when it happens too much.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: QuisUtDeus on November 09, 2014, 08:11:28 am
I personally see very little point in not going for a round shield, getting hit or shot around my shield is frequent with anything around the 40 width range.
This is the only thing that worries me about the internal shield balance .. a bit.
Other than that it seems like there is more diversity possible now with the shield choice and i like it: Do i really want to put the 5th shield skill and take advantage of low weight knightly kite to be as fast as possible? Or do i want to block for my team, too,in which case right now there is more options than the huscarls round?
If you want a really durable shield - you have to commit to it. If you want a really lightweighted one - you have to commit to it. Seems fine to me.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: hellou on November 10, 2014, 12:48:25 pm
I personally see very little point in not going for a round shield, getting hit or shot around my shield is frequent with anything around the 40 width range.
I never really considered that before... Buff speed by like 1 point on knightly heater shield pls.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: BlindGuy on November 10, 2014, 05:09:50 pm
If you want a really durable shield - you have to commit to it. If you want a really lightweighted one - you have to commit to it. Seems fine to me.
Or... take the shield called Round Shield at +3, with 8 shield skill, and a 1h axe: I've never 1v1'd another shielder, no matter his setup, and had mine break first. ALthough, of course, half of shield fighting in melee (I still hold that shields are to block ranged, not hits, weapons block hits without breaking and that makes them infinitly better IMO) for me is the fun of having my shield be completely unscathed while the enemies is in peices on the floor, by using timing, chambers and liberal S keying to avoid even having to block.
And sure most ppl these days can block without the shield but its funny to see guys who are big dick swinging heroes untill their shield is smashed and suddenly they desperatly try to spam, unable to defend themselves anymore. Makes me chuckle.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Thryn on November 11, 2014, 11:10:31 pm
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: BlindGuy on November 11, 2014, 11:37:10 pm
While IRL this guy has good points it cannot apply to CRPG: I would love to have plate that, as real life, can pretty much make you next to immune to arrows and bolts, but I feel I'm justified because I'm filthy rich ingame. But unless you make the plate cost a few hundred thousand gold per peice, it wont be reflective of real life: not everyone had plate, even up the advent of gunpowder making armour redundant, plate was the minority and only for the filthy rich.
Unless it was actually expensive (and lets be honest, I can use any gear I want in crpg, upkeep is a joke) making plate realistic would be a bad call, because much as I hate crossbows and archers, realistic plate without extreme price would remove all ranged from game, and I am a cool guy and think even my old friendguts should be able to play.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Shatter on November 12, 2014, 03:32:54 am
My problem with internal shield balance is that the shields of the same type progressively increase in weight as you go higher in difficulty (ex: Round Cavalry Shield is 3.5 weight (2 difficulty) while Elite Cavalry Shield is 4.5 weight (4 difficulty)). The stat differences between the items is pretty underwhelming considering the lower tier versions have the same radius/width/height as their higher tier counterparts. As a result, I find that I'm not really motivated to go more into shield unless I want a special kind of shield like a Huscarl/Plate shield or I just have spare points to throw into shield.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: San on November 12, 2014, 03:56:21 am
My problem with internal shield balance is that the shields of the same type progressively increase in weight as you go higher in difficulty (ex: Round Cavalry Shield is 3.5 weight (2 difficulty) while Elite Cavalry Shield is 4.5 weight (4 difficulty)). The stat differences between the items is pretty underwhelming considering the lower tier versions have the same radius/width/height as their higher tier counterparts. As a result, I find that I'm not really motivated to go more into shield unless I want a special kind of shield like a Huscarl/Plate shield or I just have spare points to throw into shield.
Shields are similar to cav due to the fact that you get a double benefit from raising shield skill and gaining access to objectively better shields. 0-2 (and 5) skill shields were buffed, but they still have crappy durability with only 0-2 shield skill. If you have 4-5+ shield skill, you wouldn't have any incentive to use the lower tier shields outside of the slightly lower weight anyways. That's why I think that the stats don't need to be very far apart. The heavier round shields haven't changed their stats in a while, and Round->Heavy Round->Huscarls are roughly +3 armor and +50 hp at each step. The Elite Cavalry Shield has below average durability in its class because of its prowess in all areas, so the light round shields are all pretty close to each other with only minor durability increases.
I borrowed a +3 Round Cavalry Shield from the armoury and it still breaks very quickly in-game with 2 shield skill. I need to have my shield sheathed a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Shatter on November 12, 2014, 04:59:58 am
Shields are similar to cav due to the fact that you get a double benefit from raising shield skill and gaining access to objectively better shields. 0-2 (and 5) skill shields were buffed, but they still have crappy durability with only 0-2 shield skill. If you have 4-5+ shield skill, you wouldn't have any incentive to use the lower tier shields outside of the slightly lower weight anyways. That's why I think that the stats don't need to be very far apart. The heavier round shields haven't changed their stats in a while, and Round->Heavy Round->Huscarls are roughly +3 armor and +50 hp at each step. The Elite Cavalry Shield has below average durability in its class because of its prowess in all areas, so the light round shields are all pretty close to each other with only minor durability increases.
I borrowed a +3 Round Cavalry Shield from the armoury and it still breaks very quickly in-game with 2 shield skill. I need to have my shield sheathed a lot of the time.
I agree that there should be some incentive to use the lower rank shields over the higher rank shields, but I feel that the weight differences are too much for certain shields. Compare the Heavy Kite Shield to the Kite Shield. For upgrading to the 1 difficulty higher requirement Heavy Kite Shield, you get +7 armor and lose 15 hit points at the cost of 1.5 weight. I understand that the +armor makes it more durable despite the hp reduction but is that really worth 1.5 weight when you also put another point in shield just to get access to it? Or look at the Horseman's Heater Shield vs. the Knightly Heater Shield. A Knightly Heater Shield, which is 2 difficulty higher, gets +10 armor and +12 hp at the cost of 1.5 weight. Of course, the +10 armor will make it a lot more durable, but I'm not sure its worth 1.5 weight considering it also takes an investment of 2 more shield skill which could go towards something like IF.
I don't think the durability should be increased on higher rank shields, but I think the differences between the weights should be slightly lowered or the shield speeds/radii should be slightly increased. Even if you compare the shield situation to horses, compare the difficulty 4 and 5 horses to the unarmored 6 and 7 horses. There is pretty much 0 reason to use those lower difficulty horses if you have 6 or 7 riding skill. Though I think there should be some incentive to use lower rank shields, I don't see the problem of making the higher rank shields the more desirable choice if you invest into shield.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: San on November 12, 2014, 07:29:32 am
Interesting points.
At low armor, the damage reduction is close to 1:1, so you'll be saving ~6-7 damage * your shield skill damage reduction, usually around 4pts per hit. Kite shield has above average stats, but it's in the 16-18 armor tier where arbalests can shoot through them pretty easily. +10 armor would see a massive difference in durability, ~6 damage difference per hit. Going from 40 to 36 isn't a big deal, but usually it's something closer to 20 to 16, a 25% increase before factoring in health, assuming that damage to shields is similar to armor. -2 shield skill and the damage reduction is reduced by 12%. Going from 4 to 2, 34%->22%, close to another 20% durability loss. Both stack up relatively quickly.
Guess the gist is that +2shield and the better shield is close to a 50% durability increase (1.25 * 1.2). If you have higher shield skill, it's more durability in the realm of 2x% vs. weight.
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Though I think there should be some incentive to use lower rank shields, I don't see the problem of making the higher rank shields the more desirable choice if you invest into shield.
I agree with this, but shield has a low difficulty threshold. I think many of the 5 difficulty shields are getting to ridiculous points in stats outside of the Triangle Shield which needs to be made 1 slot. And Fur Covered Shield is terrible.
Shockingly enough, some players want more weight on their shields to prevent block stun and crushthrough. The 4-6 weight section handles this just fine. I did ponder for a long time whether to change The Knightly Heater Shield's and Kite Shield's weight, but ended up just getting the former reduced from 5.5 to 5. I'm very hesitant to touch any widths except for ones that are blatantly out of place like the Green Crescent Heater or Long Pavise Shield. The way they worked were changed a few years ago and it's a bit confusing for me, especially coupled with the shield forcefield increase. The low width shields tend to just have better stats everywhere else.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Shatter on November 12, 2014, 07:50:38 am
At low armor, the damage reduction is close to 1:1, so you'll be saving ~6-7 damage * your shield skill damage reduction, usually around 4pts per hit. Kite shield has above average stats, but it's in the 16-18 armor tier where arbalests can shoot through them pretty easily. +10 armor would see a massive difference in durability, ~6 damage difference per hit. Going from 40 to 36 isn't a big deal, but usually it's something closer to 20 to 16, a 25% increase before factoring in health, assuming that damage to shields is similar to armor. -2 shield skill and the damage reduction is reduced by 12%. Going from 4 to 2, 34%->22%, close to another 20% durability loss. Both stack up relatively quickly.
Guess the gist is that +2shield and the better shield is close to a 50% durability increase (1.25 * 1.2). If you have higher shield skill, it's more durability in the realm of 2x% vs. weight. I agree with this, but shield has a low difficulty threshold. I think many of the 5 difficulty shields are getting to ridiculous points in stats outside of the Triangle Shield which needs to be made 1 slot. And Fur Covered Shield is terrible.
Shockingly enough, some players want more weight on their shields to prevent block stun and crushthrough. The 4-6 weight section handles this just fine. I did ponder for a long time whether to change The Knightly Heater Shield's and Kite Shield's weight, but ended up just getting the former reduced from 5.5 to 5. I'm very hesitant to touch any widths except for ones that are blatantly out of place like the Green Crescent Heater or Long Pavise Shield. The way they worked were changed a few years ago and it's a bit confusing for me, especially coupled with the shield forcefield increase. The low width shields tend to just have better stats everywhere else.
Makes sense. I do think it is pretty close balance-wise and was only suggesting tiny changes. But I can see why you would come out on the other end.
One thing I would like to note though is that, when the opportunity arises, you should consider adding a light-weight difficulty 4 shield. There is Horseman's Kite Shield (difficulty 2/2.5 weight), Brown Lion Heater Shield (difficulty 3/2.5 weight), and Knightly Kite Shield (difficulty 5/3 weight) but nothing comparable at difficulty 4. Lightest difficulty 4 shield is 4.5 weight.
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Leshma on November 12, 2014, 02:11:35 pm
Shields now feel a lot lighter because some of them have reduced weight compared to a early cRPG stats, but when I put a shield on my back it feels just as heavy as before. Is there a chance that new shield weight stats aren't taken into account when you put a shield on your back, that is somehow hard-coded weight penalty?
Title: Re: Few item balance suggestions
Post by: Kafein on November 12, 2014, 08:58:18 pm
Shields now feel a lot lighter because some of them have reduced weight compared to a early cRPG stats, but when I put a shield on my back it feels just as heavy as before. Is there a chance that new shield weight stats aren't taken into account when you put a shield on your back, that is somehow hard-coded weight penalty?
Having any shield on your back carries a penalty which is in part independent of the weight of the shield, afaik. That's why you don't see anyone running around in plate with arena shields on their back, even though technically that could prove to be a good way to decrease ranged damage (and be hilarious in the process).