cRPG

cRPG => Beginner's Help and Guides => Topic started by: Hekke on September 11, 2014, 08:36:23 pm

Title: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Hekke on September 11, 2014, 08:36:23 pm
Does throwing lance stop cav when used as meele weap?
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Donkey_Thrower on September 11, 2014, 08:46:35 pm
it is so short when used in melee mode, I'm not sure it would.    Maybe if its a 1h cav but if its a lancer chances are you're getting run through.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Andswaru on September 11, 2014, 08:58:44 pm
Any pierce damage polearm rears cav so the answer is when you swap it to secondary mode it will stop the horse (if as donkey_thrower pointed out you avoid been killed first).
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Digglez on September 11, 2014, 09:09:26 pm
it is so short when used in melee mode, I'm not sure it would.    Maybe if its a 1h cav but if its a lancer chances are you're getting run through.

Well I've recently noticed the Short Spear rears horses, or at least has for me on more than 1 time...which hadnt done that for like 2+ years.  I took about a half year break, so dont know if they intentionally put that back but chances are it may as well
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: AntiBlitz on September 11, 2014, 10:17:38 pm
yes they rear horses, i can confirm this, though i wouldnt bother using them, as of now they are the worst throwing weapon.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Donkey_Thrower on September 11, 2014, 10:46:30 pm
yes they rear horses, i can confirm this, though i wouldnt bother using them, as of now they are the worst throwing weapon.

whaaaaat?  they got a buff tho... you can carry 6 now instead of 4
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 11, 2014, 11:02:03 pm
Jarids probably rear horses now too.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Jack1 on September 11, 2014, 11:44:49 pm
Any weapon using polearm wpf, has a pierce stab, and is atleast 100 length will rear a horse now diggles. That includes halfswording bastard swords/great swords and any pierce polearm. I'm not sure what the length of throwing weapons in secondary mode is but if you figure that out you'll know if it'll rear the horse. Or go in game and try.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Mallets on September 12, 2014, 02:05:03 am
Yes, Throwing Lance in melee mode will definitely rear a horse.  I use them quite a bit to do so.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: AntiBlitz on September 12, 2014, 04:30:56 am
whaaaaat?  they got a buff tho... you can carry 6 now instead of 4

a buff lol, who the hell have you been talking to?  they were nerfed, nerfed far into the ground, they used to have over 60p, who cares that they gave you a stack of them, when you can get Jarids, have more ammo, and have far more damage output.  Id rather have had 4 at 60p then 6 at 47p, since you throw like 4 of them into one player anyways just to kill him.   As bad as they are, it would be better to just be an archer, atleast that way you get more ammo, and can actually kill something in the same amount of shots.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 12, 2014, 04:34:42 am
You'd rather have 4 at 60p than 6 at 47p since you would need to throw 4 of them into one player to kill him?
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on September 12, 2014, 04:51:33 am
Hey Digglez I impersonated you while you were gone, I hope you don't mind.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Voncrow on September 12, 2014, 04:56:48 am
a buff lol, who the hell have you been talking to?  they were nerfed, nerfed far into the ground, they used to have over 60p, who cares that they gave you a stack of them, when you can get Jarids, have more ammo, and have far more damage output.  Id rather have had 4 at 60p then 6 at 47p, since you throw like 4 of them into one player anyways just to kill him.   As bad as they are, it would be better to just be an archer, atleast that way you get more ammo, and can actually kill something in the same amount of shots.

47x6 = 282
60x4 = 240
So now you have more and do a total of 42 more damage average. Meaning you can hit more opponents on top of dealing more damage. But yeah, sure it's a nerf.

Edit: Also, you can add zero slot weapons in on top of that. Such as two sets of throwing daggers, knives, stars or any one hander(0slot).
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2014, 05:17:18 am
47x6 = 282
60x4 = 240
So now you have more and do a total of 42 more damage average. Meaning you can hit more opponents on top of dealing more damage. But yeah, sure it's a nerf.

Edit: Also, you can add zero slot weapons in on top of that. Such as two sets of throwing daggers, knives, stars or any one hander(0slot).

That's not how it works.  You have to deduct armor soak from each hit, so it's less, way less.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Voncrow on September 12, 2014, 05:53:33 am
That's not how it works.  You have to deduct armor soak from each hit, so it's less, way less.

6 pt with 170 wpf vs someone with 70 armour value:
Pierce 60:
Minimum: 28.47
Real Average: 31.94
Maximum: 35.58
Raw Damage: 100.18
_________________
Pierce 47:
Minimum: 20.08
Real Average: 22.85
Maximum: 25.74
Raw Damage: 79.25
_________________
Now lets compare them multiplied by the number of lances.
Min:
Pierce 47: 20.08x6 = 120.48
Pierce 60: 28.47x4 = 113.88
Ave:
Pierce 47: 22.85x6 = 137.1
Pierce 60: 31.94x4 = 127.76
Max:
Pierce 47: 25.74x6 = 154.44
Pierce 60: 35.58x4 = 142.32
Raw:
Pierce 47: 79.25x6 = 475.5
Pierce 60: 100.18x4 = 400.72

All results have been rendered and found by using this damage calculator: https://0b176db51ec327b013e6b005fde2cca145eb9267.googledrive.com/host/0Bzs1vJv0tQLHZ3AwLUQ0Tkt0djg/calc.html
and Microsoft Calculator.

The evidence above show that 6 lances with 47 pierce deal more damage in every aspect than 4 lances with 60 pierce. If anyone would like to replicate my results. Simply enter 6 pt with 170 wpf vs an armour value of 70 and the stats for 47 pierce and 60 pierce will be as shown. I then multiplied the value by the max number of lances to show clearly what a dedicated lance thrower could do one way or the other.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Admerius on September 12, 2014, 12:08:50 pm
Throwing lance is more like a peasant and ninja hunter now, before it was decent enough to kill many medium armoured players with one good hit.

The rebalance is good if you look at potential damage etc. but the gameplay effecs this has on throwing lance is huge.

Instead of being a dreaded instakilling burst dps platform you're more like Pure strength Jarid build.

I don't like this effect on gameplay, Throwing lance was better before this "buff".

I would actually like it more if they didn't nerf the damage and made it two slot and 2 ammo.



Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Voncrow on September 12, 2014, 01:59:59 pm
Throwing lance is more like a peasant and ninja hunter now, before it was decent enough to kill many medium armoured players with one good hit.

The rebalance is good if you look at potential damage etc. but the gameplay effecs this has on throwing lance is huge.

Instead of being a dreaded instakilling burst dps platform you're more like Pure strength Jarid build.

I don't like this effect on gameplay, Throwing lance was better before this "buff".

I would actually like it more if they didn't nerf the damage and made it two slot and 2 ammo.

I also prefer the throwing lance back to its old self with less ammo, but I don't know about 1 for 2 slots. I suppose you could compare it to most a lot of polearms of similar size that are also 2slot.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2014, 03:00:46 pm
The stab damaged was nerfed as was the stab animation, so it's still much worse off than before.  And the while damage capacity is garbage, because it was 1-2 throws to kill before and now it's 2-3, but you just spend more time throwing.  The speed bonus/damage soak changes didn't help either.  Unfortunately, when Tydeus starts nerfing, he will often double or in this case triple nerf something in rapid succession.  He still hasn't learned what moderation is, but maybe it's because he's paranoid that the devs will patch and then never come back so he'd better get it all in at once.

My biggest issue with all these changes was that lance throwers were a highly specialized class before.  Yes, they were capable of one shorting medium armor, which was apparently what Tydeus disliked the most. However, you have to remember this class took something like 11 skill points (7PT and 4WM) and required 21 strength.  Obviously the level 21/18 hybrid pole arm class was popular, but you were missing out on any chance of IF.  Meanwhile, arbalests only require 4WM to be accurate and 18 str, leaving an essentially full melee spec class and can still 1 shot medium armor with ranged.  And of course, 1 slot 2hers and 0 slot 1hers keep getting buffed.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: AntiBlitz on September 12, 2014, 03:43:42 pm
47x6 = 282
60x4 = 240
So now you have more and do a total of 42 more damage average. Meaning you can hit more opponents on top of dealing more damage. But yeah, sure it's a nerf.

Edit: Also, you can add zero slot weapons in on top of that. Such as two sets of throwing daggers, knives, stars or any one hander(0slot).

yes the throwing lance isnt a weapon that you toss everything you can into someone to kill them, your ammo is so limited that not having more damage makes them fail hard to something like jarids, which are essentially what they are now, just long jarids, weak long jarids.

You'd rather have 4 at 60p than 6 at 47p since you would need to throw 4 of them into one player to kill him?

before you needed 1 to take em down to like 10% health, 2 throws on the really hefty fellows.  But since they are just long jarids now, they are garbage, i saw someone throw 3 lances into a rouncey, which is just stupid.

Like i said, might as well be a 2h/pole archer or xbow, as throwing lances are terrible.  Or just go full in gimmick jarid thrower, that seems to do pretty well since hybrid throwing is pretty shit too.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 12, 2014, 03:57:53 pm
Throwing lances had to be changed since they were worse at 60p with only 4 ammo with the changed armor factors.

It's currently the best hybrid throwing weapon in the game. There are a variety of gear setups available that gives it more versatility than the troll builds of old. You can also easily 2 shot anyone if you invest in more PT. 7 PT was a low barrier for dealing 50 damage against guys with 80 armor. Arbalest also has it worse off, so I don't understand all the comparisons to it.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Gurnisson on September 12, 2014, 04:11:26 pm
The best way to use throwing lances is softening enemies with 1-2 lances (depending on armour/class) and then melee the rest of the hp down afterwards.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 12, 2014, 04:23:14 pm
There's a lot of things that the newer throwing lances have going against them that aren't covered in the public damage calculator in the beginner's forums, but my feeling is that throwing feels much softer vs cavalry/charging infantry in general.

I probably wouldn't mind any of the changes if the slot bug were fixed.

That being said, the main nerfs to throwing in general were:

1. Speed bonus change for ranged, which was probably done to nerf HA/HX/HT.
     -Patch: 0.3.3.0
     -Old Value: missile_damage_speed_power = 1.9 (whoops, typo)
     -New Value: missile_damage_speed_power = 1.0
     -Relevant formula:   raw_damage *= math.pow(missile_damage_speed_power, speed_bonus)
     -Much bigger deal for throwing than the others, since their base missile speed is much lower, so lower damage vs fast charging enemies, more damage vs retreating enemies.
     -Ironically makes charging cavalry much harder to kill for ranged.

2. "Extra penetration" value changes (Larger soak, lower reduce)
     -Patch: 0.3.3.0
     -Old Value (Soak): 1.2
     -New Value (Soak): 1.6
     -Old Value (Reduction): 0.6
     -New Value (Reduction) 0.5
     -The calculator that everybody uses in the beginner's forums doesn't have extra penetration (pretty much all ranged weapons except stupid stuff like smoke bomb/ladders) factored into it.

(click to show/hide)

3. Recalculation of WPF penalties for ranged in general

#1 probably has the biggest effect for throwing weapons in general. The difference in killing thresholds seems too drastic vs heavy armors when you hit an enemy in the arms/shoulder since everyone in crpg flails around.

#2 probably has the biggest effect on cut throwing/cut arrows.

#3 probably has the biggest effect on trolly 3PT throwing dagger/war dart builds since they target squishy people/always try to headshot anyway.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2014, 04:30:20 pm
Throwing lances had to be changed since they were worse at 60p with only 4 ammo with the changed armor factors.

It's currently the best hybrid throwing weapon in the game.

Do you really believe this?  Both crossbow and throwing lances take about 4wm to be effective, and 18 str to use.  However, throwing lances obviously require 6PT.  That is essentially a 2 level penalty, or giving up and extra athletics or power strike.  San, I generally like your approach to most issues, as you have a fairly good understanding of basic math, but in this case you are missing a big part of the picture.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 12, 2014, 04:38:03 pm
Ranged speed bonus may be a little different. I think it's somewhere within the depths of WSE and I don't really understand it that well:

http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/msg356369/#msg356369

Code: [Select]
            if missile:
                    missile_speed_vec = missile.get_direction()
                   
                    if (receiver_agent_no >= 0):
                            missile_speed_len = (receiver_speed_vec - missile_speed_vec).length() # sqrt(x²+y²+z²)
                    else:
                            missile_speed_len = missile_speed_vec.length()
                   
                    damage = pow(missile_speed_len / missile.speed, module_settings.missile_damage_speed_power) * missile.damage * attack_rec.unknown_value
           

Currently, ranged have the same soak/reduce as melee.

added penetration flags to throwing.

Throwing didn't have extra penetration until August, after soak/reduce was first changed I think. It just went back to how it was.

Using the old soak/reduce values of 0.6 and 0.55 and 64p, 7PT, 170wpf, 70 armor

    Minimum: 47.77
    Real Average: 53
    Maximum: 58.37
    Raw Damage: 114.52

Edit:

Do you really believe this?  Both crossbow and throwing lances take about 4wm to be effective, and 18 str to use.  However, throwing lances obviously require 6PT.  That is essentially a 2 level penalty, or giving up and extra athletics or power strike.  San, I generally like your approach to most issues, as you have a fairly good understanding of basic math, but in this case you are missing a big part of the picture.

I think you're mentioning the part where I said that Arbalests also have it worse off? Its damage was reduced from low 50s to ~40. Both were affected, so their relationship compared to each other would have been similar, except Arbalest was unchanged and Throwing Lance was altered to fit the soak/reduce changes. I don't think there are any better throwing weapons you can hybrid with. It had -1p, but it still has the same pierce as a +3 Shortened Spear. Its side swings were also buffed by 2. Speed was reduced, but it's still fast. You can use the extra equipment spaces for throwing daggers, a 0 slot weapon, or a buckler, or sacrifice a set of Throwing Lances for a 2 slot weapon. Less upkeep, too.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2014, 06:45:16 pm
So you're telling me that a revolver with 6 bullets is better than a sniper rifle with 15 or 30, in a medieval combat game?

I mean, are you taking effective range into account here?  Sure, lances may do slightly more damage, but it's still two to kill.  Lances have to be thrown from just outside melee range, because they are not very accurate if you're a hybrid.  The slots argument is not a particularly good one because daggers and ninjas stars have garbage damage.   Oh, and again: skill point investment.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Voncrow on September 12, 2014, 06:53:48 pm
So you're telling me that a revolver with 6 bullets is better than a sniper rifle with 15 or 30, in a medieval combat game?

I mean, are you taking effective range into account here?  Sure, lances may do slightly more damage, but it's still two to kill.  Lances have to be thrown from just outside melee range, because they are not very accurate if you're a hybrid.  The slots argument is not a particularly good one because daggers and ninjas stars have garbage damage.   Oh, and again: skill point investment.
Crossbows have a reload time that would make up for the lack of points in my opinion. While Throwing lances have a shorter range they also have a much higher rate of release. On top of that the nerf to the melee mode of the throwing lance was probably need. I remember seeing players like Sauce who went even in melee with throwing lances against plenty of melee, while that may just be because of skill, the melee mode was a bit ridiculous. There is also the fact that Throwing Lances(at least 2 sets at there current upkeep) are cheaper than an arbalest alone.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2014, 07:06:27 pm
Crossbows have a reload time that would make up for the lack of points in my opinion. While Throwing lances have a shorter range they also have a much higher rate of release. On top of that the nerf to the melee mode of the throwing lance was probably need. I remember seeing players like Sauce who went even in melee with throwing lances against plenty of melee, while that may just be because of skill, the melee mode was a bit ridiculous. There is also the fact that Throwing Lances(at least 2 sets at there current upkeep) are cheaper than an arbalest alone.

Ask sauce if he is throwing now.  That was pre-wpf patch, now you can't get as much wpf.  Like I said pole stab was horribly crippled, plus taking away 2p and however many speed.  It's pretty hard to land that stab now, considering they always glance with ~100 wpf, which is all you can get if you want 130 throwing wpf.  The buff to blunt damage isn't all that useful, the swings were there to set up the stab.

Also cost doesn't matter anymore, as per Tydeus in the many cavalry nerf conversations on this forum.  It's funny that you talk about "rate of release," because you just said that 6 lances for slightly more damage vs 4 lances for faster damage is preferable.  You are acknowledging the difference in DPS and then saying less is better and then more is better.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 12, 2014, 07:07:25 pm
When the sniper rifle has to reload for 10 seconds without moving after every shot, it's difficult to say which weapon is more practical. Would you impact the field more by reloading whilst hidden or entering the fray yourself? Throwers on the other hand have a burst impact, especially when paired with other ranged. Additionally, hybridizing lessens the risk of close-quarters confrontations, even when disregarding great defensive tools such the pole nudge.

Daggers+Ninja stars received +3 cut and better accuracy. They can quickly end someone who was hit by a throwing lance from afar and can be used as a go-to for times where you don't want to waste precious Throwing Lance ammo. Without stagger, they're pretty useless to a thrower, but all of a sudden they end up being great in conjunction with the Throwing Lance.

It takes 5 64p Throwing Lances to match the 51p ones while being more efficient vs a full health enemy.

+3 throwing lance before:

30p
20b
103 speed

Now:

29p
22b
99 speed

Still good.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: MURDERTRON on September 12, 2014, 07:09:55 pm
San please don't forget that you start on opposite sides of the map, and there are plenty of great hiding places in nearly every map.  Dune might be an exception.

If we were talking about that map that's open plain and you spawn next to enemies, sure the throwing lances would be better.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Digglez on September 12, 2014, 07:32:34 pm
throwing used to have very clearly defined SUSTAINED & BURST weapons.  Looks like you nerfed the shit out of the BURST ones (HTA, Jarrid, Lance) ...and sustain ones (javs, francs/HA, spears) have always been pretty poor to begin with.

whatever you did its terrible. I used to be able to down max speed incoming low tier unarmored horses with MW HTA to horses face and now i'm lucky if I can 2-3 shot them.  Throwing used to be a good counter to enemy cav/ranged, now its nerfed into being a gimmick since you skill taxed it into oblivion for hybrids.

Well at least you kinda buffed the most common weapon throughout history the spear, at the massive expensive of the second most common; throwing.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 12, 2014, 10:26:27 pm
Unarmored horses were given more HP, a pure build would likely need 3 without speed bonus. I definitely wouldn't call HTA or Jarids burst since they're 3 ammo per stack. HTA, Jarids, and Throwing Spears are all great and have been largely buffed continously since the armor factor changes.

Old HTA-> New HTA:

Accuracy: 126 -> 147
Damage: 47 cut -> 46 cut
Ammo: 2 -> 3 (originally was 43 cut when ammo was first changed, then all cut throwing received +3 damage)

Burst damage is still there, you just need an actual strength build, not have damage for free.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Voncrow on September 12, 2014, 10:53:07 pm
Ask sauce if he is throwing now.  That was pre-wpf patch, now you can't get as much wpf.  Like I said pole stab was horribly crippled, plus taking away 2p and however many speed.  It's pretty hard to land that stab now, considering they always glance with ~100 wpf, which is all you can get if you want 130 throwing wpf.  The buff to blunt damage isn't all that useful, the swings were there to set up the stab.

Also cost doesn't matter anymore, as per Tydeus in the many cavalry nerf conversations on this forum.  It's funny that you talk about "rate of release," because you just said that 6 lances for slightly more damage vs 4 lances for faster damage is preferable.  You are acknowledging the difference in DPS and then saying less is better and then more is better.

I know I was talking about sauce before the nerf, the point I was trying to make was that at least the melee mode needed a nerf. As for dps comparison, 4-6 throwing lances rate of fire is much different from 2 lance - two crossbow shots. Although right now I'm arguing against it, I actually support the 60p 4 lance over 47p 6 lances, although that can be countered by the fact that you do have to be within a short range  for lances to be effective makes it easier to be forced into melee and therefore lose out to that potential extra damage from having more pierce right up. As is antiblitz's point, lance thrower use to be a powerful and fun throwing/ polearm hybrid that brought fun and annoyance at the same time to the game. The nerf turned throwing lances into a dedicated thrower weapon which is kind of sad. The 4 lance 60 pierce with great melee hybrid capability brought a nice diversity into the game that I would take any day over mounted range.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 13, 2014, 06:31:52 am
Quote from:  Weird looking math
                    damage = pow(missile_speed_len / missile.speed, module_settings.missile_damage_speed_power) * missile.damage * attack_rec.unknown_value

Yeah that bolded value throws me off a bit.

Still looks like throwing was really nerfed vs charging cavalry though (exponential -> linear), which is really where it shined. And then there's the soak/reduce multipliers.

Quote
Currently, ranged have the same soak/reduce as melee.
Throwing didn't have extra penetration until August, after soak/reduce was first changed I think. It just went back to how it was.

After deleting all of my crpg text files and repairing, I can assure you that the extra penetration flags are still different.

(click to show/hide)

...And after decompiling the repaired itemkinds1.txt, I can assure you that the extra penetration flags are still there on ranged items. Still absent on stuff like ladders and smoke bombs though.

(click to show/hide)

Unless the server files differ from the updater's files, then what you said makes sense.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I still have to look at the 2s throwing lance packs as a big ol' nerf (even ignoring the speed bonus & soak stuff) until the slot bug is fixed.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 13, 2014, 04:51:07 pm
I think cmp changed the values for the server and they aren't representative of what we see in the .ini. There is a thread about it in item unbalance a few pages in. Penetration flags are there but the multipliers are set to 1. Edit: http://forum.melee.org/item-unbalance/itp_extra_pen-removal/ Votes were 2-3 by the time it passed.

Slot bug?

Throwing lance was 50p but they were considered much better than the competition then. What would be better stats-wise?
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: AntiBlitz on September 13, 2014, 09:56:05 pm
I think cmp changed the values for the server and they aren't representative of what we see in the .ini. There is a thread about it in item unbalance a few pages in. Penetration flags are there but the multipliers are set to 1. Edit: http://forum.melee.org/item-unbalance/itp_extra_pen-removal/ Votes were 2-3 by the time it passed.

Slot bug?

Throwing lance was 50p but they were considered much better than the competition then. What would be better stats-wise?

picking up lances drops your equipment because its trying to pick up an additional stack.  So itll drop your 0 slot sword, your other stack of 2/3 lances to pick up a single lance.  Normally occurs if they arent of the same loom level.

Glad they moved this to the bowels of the forums, i wouldnt want people to actually read it.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 13, 2014, 10:18:30 pm
I think I made an error. I was using 1.2x and 0.5x for penetration when it was 1.2x and 0.6x. The damage from penetration is overstated by 3-4 points from that.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Digglez on September 14, 2014, 01:25:16 am
so speed bonus was removed for ranged or something? In an attempt to nerf HA?
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 14, 2014, 01:38:30 am
One of the largest reasons, yes. It let HA easily outdamage foot archers. There were some admittedly poor tradeoffs, so I'm hoping there can be some way to bring it back if horse ranged could possibly be addressed another way.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Digglez on September 14, 2014, 07:44:15 am
so there is no way to only disable it to HA and not other ranged?
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 14, 2014, 11:33:31 am
I think cmp changed the values for the server and they aren't representative of what we see in the .ini. There is a thread about it in item unbalance a few pages in. Penetration flags are there but the multipliers are set to 1. Edit: http://forum.melee.org/item-unbalance/itp_extra_pen-removal/ Votes were 2-3 by the time it passed.

Ah, didn't know about that/didn't have access to the section at that time.

Quote
Slot bug?

Warband's a bit unintelligent with everything which item in your weapon slots to replace. Coupled with cRPG's slot system, it leads to wonky behavior.

An example would be a person having a set of throwing lances, a set of heavy throwing axes, a 1 slot 1h weapon, and a buckler.

Once the lances and axes are expended, you would logically expect that if the person attempts to pick up something like javelins or darts from the ground, they'd drop one of the empty sets of throwing items to pick it up.

Instead, they'll tend to drop their 1 slot 1h weapon to pick it up, so the spent throwing weapons are nothing but added weight and a hindrance to that character.

I don't know why, but this behavior seems to act even worse with spent throwing lances in your inventory for some reason, plus there's the funny situations where you drop two things trying to pick up a single throwing lance.

Quote
Throwing lance was 50p but they were considered much better than the competition then. What would be better stats-wise?

Well, automatically getting rid of spent ammo stacks from a character would be better since it makes throwers excellent scavengers in general, and it'd get rid of some of the added weight so that they're slightly better at melee once a stack runs out.

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Other options:

Bonus vs horses applies to riders (Maybe consider giving it to most of the axe/longer than dart javelin type thrown too since lack of speed bonus)
Reversion of ranged speed bonus change (just reduce raw damage by some factor in ti_on_agent_hit for missile attacks from riders, let them charge for more risk/reward.)
Increase base throwing item missile flight speed to native levels.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Macropus on September 14, 2014, 11:47:58 am
I'm pretty sure that to prevent dropping melee weapon when picking up throwing, you should put your melee weapon to 1st slot.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on September 14, 2014, 12:34:52 pm
That's helpful, but the dead weight problem is still there.

Plus people who use four throwing stacks aren't able to do that.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: San on September 14, 2014, 05:41:30 pm
Nice ideas.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: AntiBlitz on September 15, 2014, 02:13:12 am
i dont see why they couldnt just be added to a "quiver" like arrows are for archery when you pick up arrows from the ground.
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Digglez on September 15, 2014, 02:42:49 am
what if you set throwing weapon weights to 0 or very very small, as a temporary fix?  Would that affect them in melee as well?

Or a way to make it so you only get charged once per TYPE of throwing weapon.  So if you carried 3 sets of axes, you only get charged for one....vs if you bring lance & daggers, you'd get charged weight of both of them.


Also, shouldnt this thread be in game balance discussion now
Title: Re: Throwing lance vs cav
Post by: Donkey_Thrower on September 15, 2014, 07:02:20 pm
t-lances are fine the way they are.  If you can't get decent damage out of them, then just hop on a donk and get him up to full speed.  Before the change from single to 3 per stack, I never got donkey valour.  Now I get it at least once a night while playing which is pretty good for a donkey thrower.