cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Sharky on May 21, 2011, 04:50:20 am

Title: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on May 21, 2011, 04:50:20 am
So, i remember that in the old strategus there wasn't a real economy, so the only way to get cash was from pop taxes, and crpg grind.
Now i saw a lot of posts in wich people gives for granted that stored gold on crpg will be important on strategus.

Devs, is that true?
I know that money will be less important on strat since there will be crafting bartering etc. But will it still have some value?
I think that while a little grind on crpg is funny, being able to have any advantage just because you played since crpg beginning (when gold wasn't worth nothing) or leeched dozens of hours dressed as a peasant on siege mode, or because you sold all your heirlooms would be a terrible idea.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: MountedRhader on May 21, 2011, 07:36:26 am
I'd like to know this as well. :)
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Astinus on May 21, 2011, 07:48:41 am
I've been told that it will work in the other way around, strategus gold will be tranferable into crpg, but crpg gold stays in crpg only

it seems I got it wrong
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on May 21, 2011, 08:08:11 am
I've been told that it will work in the other way around, strategus gold will be tranferable into crpg, but crpg gold stays in crpg only
Sweet.  Did they also told what you can do with strategus gold? Maybe just mercs hiring?
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: chadz on May 21, 2011, 09:05:49 am
the gold will have the value people will give to it. Just like the current marketplace.
Apart from trading, gold will have (nearly) no value.
Also, it will be transferrable both ways.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Astinus on May 21, 2011, 01:56:52 pm
the gold will have the value people will give to it. Just like the current marketplace.
Apart from trading, gold will have (nearly) no value.
Also, it will be transferrable both ways.
then how will I pay my mercenary? Blurt me moar!
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Kobold_Kommando on May 21, 2011, 03:03:21 pm
then how will I pay my mercenary?

This is a very good question. How will mercs get paid? Land?
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: okiN on May 21, 2011, 03:29:13 pm
Gold, troops, items, goods, land. In that order, would be my guess.

It's not like gold is likely to be worthless, its value just won't be tied directly to commodities like before.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on May 21, 2011, 04:12:47 pm
If the value of gold is not tied to something of real value or very carefully regulated (at least) then the economy will stink.

Unregulated fiat money = Fail
And by what chadz says it sounds like Strategus will not have much direct use for gold, outside of player trading. So it definitely sounds like gold in Strategus will be very much a fiat currency. The value will depend entirely upon the players perception of golds value. Already I am now thinking it will not have much value at all from the self admitted near uselessness, in other words losing my faith in the value of the currency.

---

There are many examples of in game economies (MMOs mostly) going to shit because the developers did not understand how economies need to be set up...
I hope you guys have a plan to deal with inflation and deflation when they hit.

If there is not a decent "in Strategus" money sink then the value of gold in Strategus will drop to near nothing. Unless the playerbase have an obscene faith in the currency :P
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Odion on May 21, 2011, 04:16:54 pm
can some one put this in english please,

can i or can i not use the money made in strategus to buy stuff in the current market.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: DarkFox on May 21, 2011, 04:37:46 pm
Quote
can i or can i not use the money made in strategus to buy stuff in the current market.
You can.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Tristan on May 21, 2011, 05:04:19 pm
I would to add to Plazeks dissent.

The problem I see is the following:

In a regulated economy, money has value because we, to some degree, expect to be able to recieve the same value of goods which we paid or recieved money for.

The problem with strat and cRPG is, that if money is completely transferable between the gamemodes, you will in strategus have a constant inflation, because new money are constantly produced in regular cRPG.

If there is no money sinks in strat, then you will, as I have already said, have a constant increase of money, hence lowering their value.

please please please add money sinks in strategus!
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on May 21, 2011, 10:16:36 pm
If the value of gold is not tied to something of real value or very carefully regulated (at least) then the economy will stink.

Unregulated fiat money = Fail
And by what chadz says it sounds like Strategus will not have much direct use for gold, outside of player trading. So it definitely sounds like gold in Strategus will be very much a fiat currency. The value will depend entirely upon the players perception of golds value. Already I am now thinking it will not have much value at all from the self admitted near uselessness, in other words losing my faith in the value of the currency.

---

There are many examples of in game economies (MMOs mostly) going to shit because the developers did not understand how economies need to be set up...
I hope you guys have a plan to deal with inflation and deflation when they hit.

If there is not a decent "in Strategus" money sink then the value of gold in Strategus will drop to near nothing. Unless the playerbase have an obscene faith in the currency :P
Well i hope that this will happen, since gold in crpg is not gained by training or something clever, but just by running in peasants gear or playing before the "repair stuff with money" patch, or selling heirlooms. So i think being able to move that money from crpg to strategus and gain an advantage because of it would be a really bad idea.

Strategus should have his own economy that doesn't rely on crpg grinding, or at least allow just strategus to crpg transfers but not crpg to strategus transfers
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: BD_Guard_Bane on May 22, 2011, 01:11:48 am
I think this might lead to market crises, but at least that'll be entirely up to the players.

In fact, I think this way makes much more sense than in the previous strategus.

From what I understood, all the basic resource transactions won't need gold. I think (roughly) it'll be that you apply labour (players and time) to fiefs, and you get resources and tickets. Resources can then be made into equipment (I think through more labour).

So as long as the trade system isn't gold based (i.e. you can trade labour, resources, equipment etc as well as gold), you've got a barter based economy with currency on top.

Then, gold has (as chadz said) whatever value people give it. It should be a lot of fun seeing what happens. In itself gold will be worthless, since you can't produce anything with it. But I wonder how the system will evolve, maybe we'll see a gold standard established. Maybe we'll see the evolution of a currency based economy and even credit.
A situation where cRPG grind gold becomes influential in strategus, and any resulting situation of market crisis, would only be the fault of players.

Sounds like fun :)
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: RandomDude on May 22, 2011, 02:14:40 am
To begin with I think gold might be accepted by those who want to buy heirlooms.

As strategus goes on, though, gold will be like real life paper money. It IS just paper - a promise of payment based on how much actual gold that country/bank has. My understanding of real life economics is pretty limited so forgive any mistakes.

So.. perhaps an item in strategus will become the new "Gold" and strategus gold will be based off that item. The price will most likely inflate as more gold comes in and more of the items are made but I dont think that's stoppable.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on May 22, 2011, 02:22:12 am
No, if gold has no value it will not be a good thing.

We will be restricted to a barter economy, people wont want gold. Effective currency is useful, it needs to have value or we will have a useless monetary system. It is not the fault of the players and it is not interesting if there is not a proper system in place to control the economy. The financial collapse will be inevitable and we will be stuck trading goods like cavemen.

This is of course all said with no knowledge of what is planned. Maybe there is a lot more to things than chadz says and there will be some systems in place to control the economy.

However the EVE devs hired a doctor of economics to manage their economy for a reason.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on May 22, 2011, 07:16:53 pm
I'm not saying we shouldn't have gold. I'm saying that there should be a strategus gold and a crpg gold.
Gold in crpg is gained in 3 ways : running around with crappy gear, selling heirlooms or who grinded before the manteinance patch. All those things have nothing to do with economy or strategy.
Think about this grinding gold flow into strategus, with people starting strategus with milions gold while others have 0. The more likely outcomes are:
1)Rejecting totally the gold as a value since it's not a measure of wealth and good trading, so we will have to barter for everything (you can see on crpg marketplace how nice is that)
2)Accept that whoever put more peasant clothes on crpg wins, wich it will make the real strategus economy (trading, taxes) useless or at least less useful.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Topsnus on May 23, 2011, 04:29:53 am
This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. The issue with the old strategus was that power=gold. And gold was earned in cRPG, therefore the power of a faction in strategus was tied to the amount its members played cRPG, and not to the situation on the strategus map. The result being a severly broken game where tactics meant nothing, all that mattered was who had the most people who played the most in thier faction, and could therefore by all black armor and chargers.

However, tieing gold to nothing doesn't fix this in any way. What this will mean is that gold is useless. Because there will be so much coming out of essentially nowhere (cRPG) its value will be nothing. The only thing people could want it for is so that they can play with all black armor all the time in cRPG. Basically, the best case scenario is that cRPG is completely crippled.

Strategus either needs to have a seperate economy from cRPG, or ALL of the cRPG battles need to be part of strategus. Because the second option isn't really an option, the economies need to be seperate.

If the currencey has no value, there is no power in currency. This means there is no power in controlling the market. The end result will be a boringly simplistic economy where you produce one thing, and trade it for the other things you need. There will be no ability to work with the economy to get an edge.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Seprest on May 23, 2011, 06:41:20 am
Gold must be a store of value. Current markets systems evolved from using the gold-standard, you can't just jump to having valueless gold floating around in a system that is based on gathering resources - there would  be no way to appraise it if it will not be used for anything in the new strategus!   I predict that there will not be very many different kinds of resources in strategus, so there will not need really be need for having gold at all if there is little to do with it ingame.  People can just trade resource A for resource B, they are directly interchangeable so there is no need for a medium of exchange.  There will have to be another solution to make gold something other than a resource to recruit mercs.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Timotheusthereal on May 23, 2011, 11:05:36 am
I think chadz have already dealt with the matter of money!

chadz can make gold wipe and suddenly... gold is very worthy again.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on May 23, 2011, 01:46:26 pm
Also recruiting mercs will require gold, basedof the battle tab on crpg website that opened again. So, more grind gold = better mercenaries on strategus. Come on...
Tying crpg gold to strategus was ok in old strategus since there were no economy, but now that you implemented a trade system it's just bad to have crpg gold in strategus 
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: kinngrimm on May 23, 2011, 03:05:07 pm
we got upkeep in crpg which limits the ability to gold gain aslong you are not a class or person who mainly goes in light gear, those can gain gold more easily then others, which is a flaw in crpg.

Nevertheless the repair costs are a good thing and i would suggest to have repair cost  for your troops and their gear in strategus aswell. So a battle/siege in strategus not only gives you money but depending on your gear you use it costs aswell.

Secondly we would need upkeep in some form for standing armies.


That would make the collection of large piles of money more difficult and having a standing army which is just there waiting for a battle expensive.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: ManOfWar on May 23, 2011, 06:23:54 pm
We need an economist to sort this whole thing out
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on May 23, 2011, 06:24:48 pm
I think chadz have already dealt with the matter of money!

chadz can make gold wipe and suddenly... gold is very worthy again.

Not at all.

This just means there is 0% certainty in the gold market.

Thus to anyone who is not an idiot gold will have 0 value.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on May 24, 2011, 10:55:12 am
Not at all.

This just means there is 0% certainty in the gold market.

Thus to anyone who is not an idiot gold will have 0 value.
Even if gold will get used directly only to hire mercs on strategus, it will surely have a lot of value. Clans with milions gold can offer the max possible payiment, while others will have to settle with less thus recruiting less and worse mercs. And that will make gold valuable also on item market, since all clans will need gold for mercs hiring.

Gold wipe (like in the old strategus, the money you gain is transferred to strategus but what you had before the strategus doens't count) would just lessen the problem, yeah you will have less stored grind money floating around, but some clans will always have more money since repair costs are really different based on your clan gear. A ranged or ninja clan will always get a lot more money then a cavalry clan for example.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: DarkFox on May 24, 2011, 11:09:20 am
I dont feel like players(mercs) will demand payment, they will fight just for fun.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: BaldRider on May 24, 2011, 11:12:34 am
Last Strat you fought for xp rather than gold.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on May 24, 2011, 11:19:11 am
Last Strat you fought for xp rather than gold.
There were no manteinance and no heirloom market, so no need of gold for your crpg char. Also the money you gained as a merc on strategus only went to your crpg char, you couldn't transfer it to strategus.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on May 24, 2011, 05:41:30 pm
I know I will be trying to set up mercenary contracts for my players where we will not fight for gold but for something that will actually retain its value. Should it become apparant there are no plans to solve these potential issues.

Even if gold will get used directly only to hire mercs on strategus, it will surely have a lot of value. Clans with milions gold can offer the max possible payiment, while others will have to settle with less thus recruiting less and worse mercs. And that will make gold valuable also on item market, since all clans will need gold for mercs hiring.

Gold wipe (like in the old strategus, the money you gain is transferred to strategus but what you had before the strategus doens't count) would just lessen the problem, yeah you will have less stored grind money floating around, but some clans will always have more money since repair costs are really different based on your clan gear. A ranged or ninja clan will always get a lot more money then a cavalry clan for example.

Yea and in the Weimar Republic/Hungary/Zimbabwe, or in other cases of hyper inflation people had loads of money too. They had to take wheelbarrows to the shops just to carry enough money to buy bread or order a beer. But it does not matter how much of this worthless money you have if you cannot do anything with it, because as soon as someone comes along with something worth bartering for. well, the relative value of a wheelbarrow-load of money becomes irrelevant. Then the institution of a useful currency system is put in jeopardy.

(click to show/hide)

If gold is wiped mid strategus this will not help either. There will be no certainty in the currency. If people fear that a wipe could happen as a potential solution to these problems then do you think they will want to accept this gold as payment that will potentially be wiped?!

---

Hyper inflation is often caused by the uncontrolled printing of money, just like CRPG grinding will be doing. If you have any knowledge of economics then you will realise these problems cannot be talked away.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Hyperinflation.html (http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Hyperinflation.html)

Quote
Hyperinflations are caused by extremely rapid growth in the supply of “paper” money. They occur when the monetary and fiscal authorities of a nation regularly issue large quantities of money to pay for a large stream of government expenditures.

Quote
How do hyperinflations end? The standard answer is that governments have to make a credible commitment to halting the rapid growth in the stock of money.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Whalen207 on May 25, 2011, 04:56:28 am
:D
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: DeathDealler on May 25, 2011, 08:36:54 am
1. Remove ticks gold in сRPG battle (gold you can get only in strategus for the battles and work)
2. Gold from Strategus will go to cRPG for upkeep that will keep inflation at strategus.
3. Average earnings gold per day for strategus equate to the average amount of gold for repair heavy armor for 6 hours of play.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Thomek on May 25, 2011, 12:27:17 pm
As Plazek says, we would need a money sink in Strat, perhaps something that could always be bought for money from "chadz" or the equivalent of a central bank.

I've got my own theories of how the economy will unfold, but it always relies on two assumptions:

The amount of items and gold will be ever-increasing.
This would allow to give the players the feeling they are prospering and building up and getting stronger. I doubt that warfare will be able to consume all the growth, as warfare should also be profitable to encourage some good old action and blood for the players.

That there is a central bank where players can buy useful items for gold directly

If this is the case which i hope and think it will be, one have to ask what what will grow faster:

The amount of gold and demand for it?
The amount of items and demand for it?

This decides if there will be inflation, or deflation. In an inflating economy, much more gold than items are produced, and so items increase in price. This would benefit player hoarding items, and sitting with as little gold as possible, as it's value is disappearing from day to day. On the other hand, a deflating economy would reward players for hoarding gold, as they can get more and more items for every day passing.

Of course, the balance between these two things will never be perfect.. and things will swing either one or the other way. Huge wars could influence the balance etc.. Of course, chadz could set up a common Bank of chadz, and giving players money for putting money there, influencing the value of money by interest rate.

Im no economist by any means, but in my mind it would work to set up an inflation economy, then controlling it with interest.

What you think?
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Tristan on May 25, 2011, 02:07:31 pm
This:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,6464.0.html

and this

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,6370.0.html

!
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Topsnus on May 27, 2011, 01:06:19 am
As Plazek says, we would need a money sink in Strat, perhaps something that could always be bought for money from "chadz" or the equivalent of a central bank.
That there is a central bank where players can buy useful items for gold directly

If this is the case which i hope and think it will be, one have to ask what what will grow faster:

The amount of gold and demand for it?
The amount of items and demand for it?

This decides if there will be inflation, or deflation. In an inflating economy, much more gold than items are produced, and so items increase in price. This would benefit player hoarding items, and sitting with as little gold as possible, as it's value is disappearing from day to day. On the other hand, a deflating economy would reward players for hoarding gold, as they can get more and more items for every day passing.

Of course, the balance between these two things will never be perfect.. and things will swing either one or the other way. Huge wars could influence the balance etc.. Of course, chadz could set up a common Bank of chadz, and giving players money for putting money there, influencing the value of money by interest rate.

Im no economist by any means, but in my mind it would work to set up an inflation economy, then controlling it with interest.

What you think?

I am strongly against anything where money earned in cRPG can be used to buy items or anything is strategus. Then we will end up with the same problem as last time, where the only strategy in strategus is to get all of your members on cRPG and grind a shitload of cash. The strat economy must be self-contained, and entirely independent of the cRPG economy. If it isn't, than there will be no strategy in strategus, and then, what is the point?

I MIGHT be okay with allowing 1 way transfers from strat to cRPG, although i think that would severly screw up the upkeep system in cRPG, thus leading to black armored people everywhere.

Best solution is to have an entirely separate economy.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: PhantomZero on May 27, 2011, 08:03:27 am
I MIGHT be okay with allowing 1 way transfers from strat to cRPG, although i think that would severly screw up the upkeep system in cRPG, thus leading to black armored people everywhere.

Thats pretty much the point, chadz wants players to be able to wear black armor on plated chargers all the time, but at the expense of Strategus holdings.

Still, Strat to cRPG is still the best, allows people to pay for mercenaries, even though nobody at higher levels has any need for money anymore, they might be interested in hoarding their money to purchase heirlooms and running around in their plate longer. Prevents players with massive amounts of money in cRPG from starting in the new strategus with an unfair advantage of people who didn't abuse the marketplace.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: kinngrimm on May 29, 2011, 01:53:36 pm
how to spend money

- Trainer in towns and castles with population with stable max population and a player who gives the training, he has to be a higher level for that purpose.

f.e. you have to pay 2 gold to gain 1 xp.
It takes time. 1 hour = 3600xp, per day that would be 86400xp to a price of 172800 gold
and you still would have to pay taxes.

or not time depending
2000k gold for a skill point (perhaps increasing depending on your lvl and how many skillpoints you already have in the particular area)
or
100k gold for a wpp

The trainer himself gets more then with a normal job but not the amounts the other players pay.

- 700k gold for a heirloom point
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: InqWiper on June 01, 2011, 02:55:58 pm
I dont get how there are no money sinks in strategus. Where do items and soldiers come from? Slaves? How does the economy work in single player? You get gold for towns when they pay taxes and then you can spend them in towns when buying supplies. Is everything generated for free in Strategus? I think you should still be able to pruchase things from towns whether they be your or others towns. Work and soldiers should not be free.

Sorry if I come off as an idiot but I never played strategus and have no idea how it worked/will work. I just dont see why it should be a problem with money sinks. You should lose money when you hire soldiers, when you hire mercenaries, when you buy weapons/armour/horses/siege equipment.

Now I may be looking a little too much into the future but I think you should also be able to spend money on improving your town to for example be able to increase its production of grain or wood or weapons or whatever you want it to produce but you should still have to buy the items they produce, workers dont work for free. You should also be able to increase the size of the town by pouring money into it thus increasing your ability to recruit from towns etc. Ofcourse a big town would be an attractive target for enemies so you should also be able to put money in defenses. IN theory I think you should be able to start out as a small village and then grow into a large town with castles and walls. This would also change the type of battlefield you fight in when there is a battle over the town. Improvements also need to take time but the more money your pour on the omprovements the faster it should take to complete but not at a linjear rate. Twice the amount of gold should not result in production rate builg doubled but maybe boosted 50% and 4 times the gold should boost it by 75% etc. Anyway dreaming too far I think so I will just stop myself right here :-)

I dont see how it has to be a problem being able to transfer money either way. The only problem I see at the moment is that there is too much gold floating around. All that is needed at the moment is an increase of prices compared to normal single player. It is now for example normal for people to have one million gold. If you increase the price of everything based on single player cost 100 times then a sword in strategus would now cost 200 000 which would not make anyone very rich in strategus. Another way would be to keep normal SP prices and cut everyones gold to 1/100 but then you would also have to decrease the gold income in cRPG to about 1 gold per tick instead of 50 and also decrease upkeep, maybe not by as much if you want more diversity on the battelfield.

Income for a warlord or a trader in stragetus should far outweigh the income in cRPG. This way warlords in strategus can use any equipment they want in cRPG making them actually look like a lord when it says a lord entered the battlefield ;) Gold could be farmed in cRPG and put into strategus but if you have to farm as a peasant for a day in cRPG to be able to buy a normal sword in strategus I dont see a problem.

I really dont see how this could not be solved.

Anyone with insight in old strategus care to enlighten me about how it worked or why it could not work like this?
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 01, 2011, 04:50:36 pm
the gold will have the value people will give to it. Just like the current marketplace.
Apart from trading, gold will have (nearly) no value.
Also, it will be transferrable both ways.

Because of this Inq.

Anyway your suggestions are pretty sucky, that is how it used to work. But back then money was not transferrable 2 ways. With gold being transferrable as chadz says it would be rubbish to have so many important actions dependant on gold. It will just make the game "who can grind the most in crpg". Which hardly anyone wants.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Tydeus on June 01, 2011, 05:04:54 pm
Seems to me that simply adding troop upkeep, armor repairs and food costs would add quite a gold sink. A gold sink is necessary, but that's not enough to fix the problem of grinding crpg just to transfer gold to strategus. Limiting how many troops can be recruited every day from all locations would help tremendously here. This adds a value to troops, not by some arbitrarily set static number, but because of supply and demand. It shouldn't be 1 troop per hour of work. It should be something like:

Toops have no cap to how many can be bough at a time or over any period of time but, every troop that gets bought from the same location adds 10g to the price of the next troop and every 5 minutes 1 troop gets added that lowers the cost of troops by 10g to a minimum of 500g. Basically, if you've played AoE, you know what I'm talking about. How the market works in that game would be rather good for crpg/strat I believe, the only difference is that troops get added every 5 minutes. For resources like food and metals for armor, it should still be time based so that players have to choose between lots of poorly armored troops, few well armored troops, or taking forever to get many well armored troops while having to pay upkeep for troops while you wait to recruit more/outfit them.

There shouldn't be a problem transferring gold to and from strat/crpg. If there is a problem with grinding in crpg and transferring your gold and abusing the system, it's because gold is too easy to get in crpg, not because anything is wrong with strategus.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on June 01, 2011, 05:37:53 pm
Because of this Inq.

Anyway your suggestions are pretty sucky, that is how it used to work. But back then money was not transferrable 2 ways. With gold being transferrable as chadz says it would be rubbish to have so many important actions dependant on gold. It will just make the game "who can grind the most in crpg". Which hardly anyone wants.
+1, all the previous suggestion are interesting just if crpg money can't be transferred in strategus. I hope that people want the strategus to be actually a strategy game, i can't call strategy running around in crpg on siege mode dressed as a peasant

Also tydeus, it's true that gold is too easy obtainable on crpg, but current changes (market and dtv) just made the problem worse, and anyway the manteinance system means that even if you nerf gold gain, whoever put cheaper gear gets more money in the long run.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: InqWiper on June 01, 2011, 05:57:55 pm
Because of this Inq.

Anyway your suggestions are pretty sucky, that is how it used to work. But back then money was not transferrable 2 ways. With gold being transferrable as chadz says it would be rubbish to have so many important actions dependant on gold. It will just make the game "who can grind the most in crpg". Which hardly anyone wants.
Thats not very nice calling my ideas sucky. The point of decreasing income in cRPG by ALOT is that you can pretty much eliminate the cRPG grind for gold to be used in strategus. What you will then have is the question if you want gold easily earned in strategus pumped into cRPG. In my opinion it should not be a problem if you increase the cost difference between lower tier and higher tier gear. If you earn 1 gold per minute in cRPG at x1 lets say that earns you 2 gold per minute average. That is 120 gold per hour. 10 hours grind per day gives you 1200 gold. That is enough maybe to give one soldier basic gear? Still sounds like a problem? Increase all item costs in strategus tenfold. Now you need 100 hours cRPG grind to arm one soldier. See where Im going?

With repair costs being higher relative to income compared to what it is now you would see less tincans and heavy cav. These players would mostly be highly paid mercs, traders, lords, kings etc that already earn enough gold in strategus that they feel they can use it for fun and showing off in cRPG. People not earning alot of gold in strategus would not be able to use high end gear in cRPG and there would be a financial class difference reflected from strategus. You may have different opinions on whether this is good or bad but I think its pretty cool.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Tydeus on June 01, 2011, 06:10:56 pm
+1, all the previous suggestion are interesting just if crpg money can't be transferred in strategus. I hope that people want the strategus to be actually a strategy game, i can't call strategy running around in crpg on siege mode dressed as a peasant

Also tydeus, it's true that gold is too easy obtainable on crpg, but current changes (market and dtv) just made the problem worse, and anyway the manteinance system means that even if you nerf gold gain, whoever put cheaper gear gets more money in the long run.
I don't see how the market has made the problem worse, though I certainly agree that DTV has. The market doesn't create gold, it creates a flow of gold. The maintenance system definitely needs worked on as well.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 01, 2011, 06:13:30 pm
I am not here to be nice. I am here to advocate my ideas for what I think is best for the game. If I say something that you think would be bad for the game I hope you would also have the courage in your conviction to say what you thought.

Sure I see your idea. I get it. I think a lot of people would not like being dependent on Strategus for their CRPG gold either. I think the further apart and less connected to one another that these two games are the better and that if they must be connected I hope it will be as superficial as possible. Thus this link you suggest that would entwine them closer together, does not get my support.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: InqWiper on June 01, 2011, 06:36:38 pm
I am not here to be nice. I am here to advocate my ideas for what I think is best for the game. If I say something that you think would be bad for the game I hope you would also have the courage in your conviction to say what you thought.

Sure I see your idea. I get it. I think a lot of people would not like being dependent on Strategus for their CRPG gold either. I think the further apart and less connected to one another that these two games are the better and that if they must be connected I hope it will be as superficial as possible. Thus this link you suggest that would entwine them closer together, does not get my support.
Yeah, fair enough.
I think I would also prefer to keep the financial systems seperate, maybe even the whole systems. I merely wished to poke some holes in the impossibility theories  :)

I am also very much interrested in continued discussion about the financial system of strategus.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Sharky on June 01, 2011, 07:00:46 pm
I don't see how the market has made the problem worse, though I certainly agree that DTV has. The market doesn't create gold, it creates a flow of gold. The maintenance system definitely needs worked on as well.
Some people with market deals is making tons of money.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Thomek on June 01, 2011, 10:56:19 pm
tbh i don't mind if the two economies were completely separated.

Perhaps a cool exception would be for cRPG players to use their chars and their perhaps heirloomed cRPG gear as mercenaries somehow.

Strategus could calculate a price to "rent" the equipment (automatically) that the player normally has(as an option), and give the money to him in strategus only.

That way we could see players in strategus fighting in what they are used to, and not having to resort to whatever the warlord buys for him. Note that this was entirely possible to do in the previous installment, but required intense and unnecessary micromanagement. (Imagine buying players exact amounts of their preferred gear for lots of different players.. = micro-nightmare)
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Tydeus on June 02, 2011, 05:17:22 am
Some people with market deals is making tons of money.
Right, but it doesn't create money. Putting peasant gear on and playing crpg for 10 hours creates money. Someone has to lose money for you to make money on the market.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Joseph on June 02, 2011, 05:30:47 am
Right, but it doesn't create money. Putting peasant gear on and playing crpg for 10 hours creates money. Someone has to lose money for you to make money on the market.

Welcome to Economy.

the gold will have the value people will give to it. Just like the current marketplace.
Apart from trading, gold will have (nearly) no value.
Also, it will be transferrable both ways.

I guess nobody ever heard:
"The first necessity to win a war is gold, gold ,and yet more gold."
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Beauchamp on June 06, 2011, 12:45:05 pm
i hope with this system the gold will have exactly the same value as its true value is - close to nothing. aye i could live with that, might give more opportunities to those that trade resources etc - so they trade things of real value and not some virtual gold gained by going in peasant gear in crpg...

also there are really sinks for "gold" in strategus. every big battle is a huge "gold" sink.

i think it might work, in the worst case we will fight with what everybody will be able to craft by himself (so rocks and clubs). doesn't sound that bad either...
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: MountedRhader on June 18, 2011, 10:41:28 am
Rocks and clubs actually sound sort of fun! :P
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Kazak on June 18, 2011, 08:11:31 pm
obi it will be separated.
Can u imagine fraction selling MW weapons and getting millions of gold.
Raising inflation, I guess economy will be separated.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 18, 2011, 08:31:33 pm
Not according to chadz post on the first page of this thread.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Kazak on June 18, 2011, 08:49:52 pm
chadz can change his mind any day...
especially when he will realize it
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Keshian on June 18, 2011, 10:02:30 pm
Its actually not that different from before.  Pre-January every 1 gold you made in cRPG meant you made 1 gold in Strategus and the only other way to make Strategus gold was by:

1) mercing for other people's fights for a fee (was capped at 1000 gold eventually, hope that is changed to 10000 gold)
2) owning a fief and collecting revenue
3) transfers between Strategus individuals (usually a trade like 1000 troops for 75,000 gold)

It sounds post-patch it will include:
4) heirloom sales from cRPG
5) daily grind from cRPG (same as before but without the double gain in both strategus and cRPG)

But since creating armor and weapons is a manufacturing process that will require goods and time you once again enter the area of demand and supply.  If too many people try to grind their way to buying equipment, the non-grinders who just manufacture their own equipment on Strategus will be able to raise their prices and mak even more gold, which will help pay for hiring mercenaries, paying upkeep for troops, buying troops from other players, and buying different equipment or buying fiefs outright.
The market forces will automatically correct themselves so even the richest cRPG millionaires will find they can only go so far with it and will eventually realize that it is better to conserve it for essential purposes (mercs, upkeep, fiefs) and manufacture the rest like everyone else or risk spending it all on one campaign to find that they can't make gold quick enough to compensate for their outgoing expenditures in trying to use gold for everything.

This natural equilibrium showed itself in old Strategus where the cost of troops steadily decreased near the end because fief holders made too many troops a day, the number of factions with fiefs decreased and most were allies of each other so less expenditure of troops.  When there was more warmongering earlier, the cost of troops was very high for landless clans.  Plus you had to retain enough gold to outfit your troops with decent gear (roughly 150K gold per 1000 troops).  Looking forward to a full fledged market economy, but the first release will not have it from the sounds of things, market will only come out several weeks after that along with the other new features.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 18, 2011, 11:03:14 pm
Except in old-Strat gold had real transferable value. You could convert the otherwise useless gold into equipment and weapons or use it to pay for your troops. This meant there was like a "gold standard".

However now things are changing, you will make equipment and weapons with materials, gold will not be required. I also presume you will have to feed soldiers with food or something on account of chadz comment of:
the gold will have the value people will give to it. Just like the current marketplace.
Apart from trading, gold will have (nearly) no value.
Also, it will be transferrable both ways.

This means any REAL value gold did have is now gone, with regards to Strategus. The only real value it has is on CRPG where it pays for repairs and gear.

---

This is very different from old-Strat. Smart people will request to be paid in things that actually have utility. You cannot assume that because things worked in old-Strat a certain way with regards to the economy that they will work in the new-Strat. The economic model is completely different.
Title: Re: Will crpg gold be important in strategus?
Post by: Casimir on June 19, 2011, 12:53:51 am
No-one knows until it comes out.

Hopefully we wont have to wait too long after old strat is relaunched to see these updates come in.