cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Torak on January 08, 2011, 07:43:51 pm
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Is it just me ho gets relly angry that you can't strike back at on a twohanden fighter even if you block whit the shield the speed is the same and even if you don't block the blows a twohanded sword is heavy and must take time to recover befor the next blow not like it is now when they swing it around like a stick
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coowl story broow!
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Whine whine whine...
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dunno mate, 2handers can still move pretty fast IRL (in real life)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
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Whine whine whine...
+1
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Problem is you cant block and attack at same time like you can IRL.
So with shield and 1hander you are pretty much fucked against a good 2hander.
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Problem is you cant block and attack at same time like you can IRL.
So with shield and 1hander you are pretty much fucked against a good 2hander.
This is the issue. If we're talking about real life, two handed weapons are pretty fast. Polearm designed weapons are even faster than 2h'd swords. However when you have a shield+1h weapon you can block and attack at the same time, as well as use the shield itself as an offensive weapon and not just some turtle wall.
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first of all this is a game and it can't be made 100% realistic, but it can be made for fun
yes 2h are fast and you need to find good opportunity to counter 2h attacks if you are using 1h+shield
whats actually interesting, when i as thrower run out of ammo i often find myself picking up 2h sword even though i have 1 wpf in 2h
and even without my wpf in 2h i actually get some kills using it especially against 1h+shield. So best ways to counter a fast 2h is to do it without shield
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So best ways to counter a fast 2h is to do it without shield
Makes sense to me. There should be no dominant melee class. They each serve different purposes.
1H + Shield = wall for your teammates to hide behind, easiest survivability in large melees or against throwers/archers, must be opportunist to land blows. Attacks are very targeted and not meant for fending off multiple opponents. That's what the shield is for.
2H = Dominant in small skirmishes. High damage + speed, but attacks are still quite targeted, though less so than 1H.
Polearm = High damage output and keeps enemies at a distance in large melees. Anti-cav. However still vulnerable (unless using a shield which robs their weapon of much speed, damage, and versatility). Thrives on open ground in large fights against multiple opponents where they can make wide swings indiscriminately. Loses this advantage in smaller fights or cluster fucks where they have to be careful about hitting teammates or the enemy does not and can simply block one strike and close the distance.
This is the way I think things should work, anyway. There's also some wiggle room, where for instance some heavy 2H work more like polearms, some polearms are better for duels (Iron Staff?), etc.
I wish there was more emphasis in this game on balancing the equipment itself rather than limiting availability on a mostly linear power scale.
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You need to work on your timing. Although I just made a 2hander and spam the crap out of people, my 1h+shield guy usually has no problems taking out 2handers. You can attack back after they attack, you just need to have the right footwork and side to attack. A fast 1hander helps too :p
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You CAN strike back, but only if you are on a similar agi and wpf basis. Even then, you have to estimate when their blow is gonna land on your shield, and let go exactly then, or you will be too slow. Good 2hers know this and hold their strikes a third of a second longer, or do a feint first, which gets most shielders (including me).
What some shielders don't understand, is that they can easily push through the first ranks without getting hit, then turn around and do some swings on the way back. This not only gets you a kill or two, but it also disrupts enemy formations, so that following teammates can get some blows in. The best formation out of a siege tower would be 3-4 shielders followed by 2h. Shielders push through enemy ranks without striking, 2h kills those who turn around. Then shielders turn around and kill those who are still facing the 2h.
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dunno mate, 2handers can still move pretty fast IRL (in real life)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
Those are ultra light fencing swords built for fast moving competition, not for battle. And even if they weren't, don't confuse real life with video game balance (except for maybe things which rely upon the laws of physics).
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Polearms are unrealistic. The sweet spot on weapons like boulder on a stick should be further away. If I was to work my way in and get close the sweet spot should not hit me. I would simply be blocking the wooden party not the actual boulder therefore it should do less damage and not break through shields and blocks.
From my experience... 2 handers and polearms are not too different at all. They should be made different. Up the speed and range on polearms but nerf the defenses so they could not be as good as regular 2 handers for blocking. Scale melee weapon difficulty with power strike or you can just make a separate skill for each melee type. Power 1h, Power 2h, Power Polearm. I think that would balance out melee a lot.
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You CAN strike back, but only if you are on a similar agi and wpf basis. Even then, you have to estimate when their blow is gonna land on your shield, and let go exactly then, or you will be too slow. Good 2hers know this and hold their strikes a third of a second longer, or do a feint first, which gets most shielders (including me).
What some shielders don't understand, is that they can easily push through the first ranks without getting hit, then turn around and do some swings on the way back. This not only gets you a kill or two, but it also disrupts enemy formations, so that following teammates can get some blows in. The best formation out of a siege tower would be 3-4 shielders followed by 2h. Shielders push through enemy ranks without striking, 2h kills those who turn around. Then shielders turn around and kill those who are still facing the 2h.
An extremely effective strategy if you got the right people to do it.
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If 2-hander wants to hit you successfuly behind that shield he must feint to force you open AND you have to do exactly the same (feint) to trick and outswing the 2-hander. Nothing to see here... move along.
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What some shielders don't understand, is that they can easily push through the first ranks without getting hit, then turn around and do some swings on the way back. This not only gets you a kill or two, but it also disrupts enemy formations, so that following teammates can get some blows in. The best formation out of a siege tower would be 3-4 shielders followed by 2h. Shielders push through enemy ranks without striking, 2h kills those who turn around. Then shielders turn around and kill those who are still facing the 2h.
The problem here are the teammates. Quite often they just watch you die.
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What some shielders don't understand, is that they can easily push through the first ranks without getting hit
Definite advantage, for more reasons than you stated. The other day I was on that new underground maze-like map and the enemy team was doing absolutely nothing but camping a single room with a line of melee at the entrance and tons of archers lining a balcony. (It was incredibly lame, and they whined like crazy when half our team decided to turn it around on them and camp our spawn. Of course we lost, because only half our team did it.)
The only round we won was when I said "Fuck this" and pushed through that front line with my shield. I expected to get torn apart on the other side, but what I found was a mostly free route up the stairs to the balcony. I exchanged a couple blows with people on the way, but strangely none of them committed to bringing me down. I made it up the stairs, put away the shield, and took out a couple archers before they all pulled weapons and turned on me. It was just enough relief to allow the rest of my team to pour into the room and emerge victorious from the chaos.
They didn't make that kind of mistake again.
Polearms are unrealistic. The sweet spot on weapons like boulder on a stick should be further away. If I was to work my way in and get close the sweet spot should not hit me. I would simply be blocking the wooden party not the actual boulder therefore it should do less damage and not break through shields and blocks.
I use polearm, and I have lots of trouble with the sweet spot. I get too close quite often and end up glancing.
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what mala said, more than once I climbed a ladder with a couple of people behind me, using a shield i jump in between enemies and most of them turn to me, but my allies on the ladder behind me just stand there and watch.
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what mala said, more than once I climbed a ladder with a couple of people behind me, using a shield i jump in between enemies and most of them turn to me, but my allies on the ladder behind me just stand there and watch.
Yeah, it happens to me all the time. What are they even doing on the ladder if they don't want to jump in? Waiting until the defenders die of starvation? What usually happens is that some thrower breaks their shield, then they either die or descend again. Or they get shot from the side by archers...
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dunno mate, 2handers can still move pretty fast IRL (in real life)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
I think most people have something like this in mind as a standard medieval twohander:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1M7xbCCIs
Or this, at the very least:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR1gCSO9NB0
To be honest though, I'd crap my pants if that thing came through a siege gate.
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dunno mate, 2handers can still move pretty fast IRL (in real life)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
wow I didn't know it that fast lol
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I think most people have something like this in mind as a standard medieval twohander:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1M7xbCCIs
Or this, at the very least:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR1gCSO9NB0
To be honest though, I'd crap my pants if that thing came through a siege gate.
In a fantasy world, yes that's what I expect a notable two-handed weapon to look like.
In real life, I think more of something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore
I'd honestly be surprised if most people can't make the distinction.
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Is it just me ho gets relly angry that you can't strike back at on a twohanden fighter even if you block whit the shield the speed is the same and even if you don't block the blows a twohanded sword is heavy and must take time to recover befor the next blow not like it is now when they swing it around like a stick
agreed!
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Just to give you an impression of how one can handle a katana-like weapon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh2TNO5CGXQ
Btw, to address that "it's-only-sport!"-complaint: Only hits that would have been deadly count. And thats quite a punch :o
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Btw, to address that "it's-only-sport!"-complaint: Only hits that would have been deadly count. And thats quite a punch :o
You underestimate the effect of a fucking SWORD hitting a man. Even if it hits your armor, it's painful enough, especially with a twohander/blunt/axe. And successful thrust will get you out of fighting condition from a fuckin knife, let alone a sword. Yes, even if it hits non-vital parts of your body. You WILL NOT be able to block anything a trained and uninjured fighter can throw at you afterwards.
So even if it just knocks on your helmet a little bit, we're talking about 130+ cm of steel here.
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You underestimate the effect of a fucking SWORD hitting a man. Even if it hits your armor, it's painful enough, especially with a twohander/blunt/axe. And successful thrust will get you out of fighting condition from a fuckin knife, let alone a sword. Yes, even if it hits non-vital parts of your body. You WILL NOT be able to block anything a trained and uninjured fighter can throw at you afterwards.
So even if it just knocks on your helmet a little bit, we're talking about 130+ cm of steel here.
Yup, but that's the rule. Just wanted to prove the point that you can get swing a katana extremly fast with enough power to kill someone. :)
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Just to give you an impression of how one can handle a katana-like weapon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh2TNO5CGXQ
Btw, to address that "it's-only-sport!"-complaint: Only hits that would have been deadly count. And thats quite a punch :o
Baaaa. To much feint spam. :P
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i feel we have gone out of topic here. The topic is about when a two hander hits your shield and recover as fast as when he hits air its not posible to do that becuas the power from the sword is hitting a solid object and if you do that it takes longer time to make a 2 hit. And we are talking about swors here not a axe ore a maul becus they would nock you to the ground half the times :)
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i feel we have gone out of topic here. The topic is about when a two hander hits your shield and recover as fast as when he hits air its not posible to do that becuas the power from the sword is hitting a solid object and if you do that it takes longer time to make a 2 hit. And we are talking about swors here not a axe ore a maul becus they would nock you to the ground half the times :)
Actually, it's the opposite. You can recover from a shield way faster than from air: it's harder to pull back a sword in mid-swing than using the bouncing effect from a hit. Of course this is not true if the weapon cuts into a shield and gets stuck, but that feature is not implemented, and wouldn't happen with these shields either way: almost all of them have steel edges.
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relly? But i shuld be abel to hit you befor you sving a 2 time right??
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relly? But i shuld be abel to hit you befor you sving a 2 time right??
depends on your footwork.
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We are talking about outspamming bihanders or even katanas, right?
Outspamming isn't the right way when used as main tactic.
You as a shielder -assuming you aren't some uber skilled veteran who's able to block manually- are in advantage when fighting a bihand user.
Your opponent has to block every of your blows manually, you don't.
Your shield enables you to choose the fightingground -in most encounter- block some swings and head into open space.
Don't try to block your opponents blows there, though you can do this more easily than him when necessary, evade them, dance around your opponent and hit him when your not in front of him, when his blow passed you.
That's easy when hes a tincan and bloody hard when hes a (skilled) ninja.
Keep athletics high, then you are fast enough to get into range to make a hit and get out of range before he recovers.
Also remember you got a shield, you don't need other heavy armour.
But be aware, this applies for the average "I'm a dangerous samuraiknight"-Spamnoob.
If you encounter someone who begins to block your blows, then you'll die.
Not due to his super fast spamming, but due to your lack of skill.
With a decent weapon, a dedicated 1h build and without shield you would be faster than him.
But this implies the necessity of manual blocking.
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you are so right :) when i started this topic i was a little angry :P i had bean stuken down like 6 times in a row :P
but you are right some i can take and some i can't :)
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But this implies the necessity of manual blocking.
Along with taking the self-nerf of shorter range, higher chance to be "stunned" when you block and pitiful damage in comparison. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I love dueling people 1h no shield (it's probably the most skill-intensive form of melee combat there is), however you are putting yourself at just about every disadvantage you could have. Typically as a 1h/shielder you will have lower stats than a 2her who only needs PS, ATH, WM. Thus half his skill points can be converted.
Shielder needs to add the shield skill on top of that, which gives you 33% less possible skill points to convert. Not a huge deal, but it is a factor.
Still, most 2hers can't fight worth crap either and simply rely on spam spam spam so your chances in a melee duel vs a 2her while using a 1her aren't that bad.
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I play polearm/thrower with a shield. My stat and skill points are all evenly divided. I'm versatile, but 1H without shield are actually the people that give me the most trouble. They'll attack so much faster than me and often step inside my range to do it, too.
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Those are ultra light fencing swords built for fast moving competition, not for battle. And even if they weren't, don't confuse real life with video game balance (except for maybe things which rely upon the laws of physics).
You are wrong - those swords are in form and weight very close to historic swords. The only difference is, that the blade is more flexible than the blade of a fighting sword to prevent injuries (you can see that everytime they do a thrust).
There were many different types of swords and fencing styles used throughout the centuries. Those shown in the video are replicas of the "langes schwert" and the fencing style is based on the medieval fencing books of Liechtenauer and was made for fighting without armor ("Bloßfechten"), so there is not really any point in using big heavy blades (a sword is no cudgel you know). The words in the video still have a weight of 2 kg, and 2 kg of sharpened steel *will* fuck you up.
Also, there is an unending variety of swords which all are all just called "longsword" nowadays. The swords form changed with the quality of the available materials, the developing skills in producing them, the region and timeframe they were produced in, the amount and quality of armor available and so on...
Also: don't base your knowledge of swords on what you see in movies - it makes you look stupid.
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The simple reason for this is ... 2h weapons have more damage.
Their swings aren't faster but you can speed them up by turning into them, which lowers damage. And since 2h have more damage, which is even more exagerated by all the boni you can stack, they can be speed up much more, to the point that an imperfectly done counterattack will always fail. I don't have problems counterattacking with 1h normally, but getting damage is kind of hard that way.
Also, this speeding up is best done with movement, since that adds damage to compensate, and shield slows you down.
But, this is an important balance consideration - if 2h has to block (this includes feints, spinthrusts, sudden "lunges", rythm changes, as well as fighting against multiple enemies), and have a high risk to be killed by ranged weapons, he must have much higher killing potential. There are some things I don't really like at the system, but just saying, swinging my staff without pause is my impenetrable steel wall.
Good techniques for shield users seem to be to wait behind your shield until a clear opportunity arises and pressure them when you have that chance. Also, fight tactically, engage throwers and pikemen when you can, these could kill the twohander that will kill the entire enemy team, and you will have little problem with them, just let one or two enemy twohanders whack at your shield for 30 seconds and they won't be able to kill anyone ... you may not see that on the scoresheet, but you might just have won the round.
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Is it just me ho gets relly angry that you can't strike back at on a twohanden fighter even if you block whit the shield the speed is the same and even if you don't block the blows a twohanded sword is heavy and must take time to recover befor the next blow not like it is now when they swing it around like a stick
Yes it's very realistic that people are recovering after a hit ! chadz should add recovery after walking also and add healers(so you can recover faster) and dragon riders(so you can recover dragons) in other case At fifteen, I had the will to learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ; at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the square.
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My tactics to run into them so they can't swing. Just ran in their sword, shield up. After he glances from you shield, slash his face with an axe. Works ok, even against ninja-builds.
And you don't need a fast weapon for that, my heavy throwing axe is sufficient for that ;)
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Actually, it's the opposite. You can recover from a shield way faster than from air: it's harder to pull back a sword in mid-swing than using the bouncing effect from a hit. Of course this is not true if the weapon cuts into a shield and gets stuck, but that feature is not implemented, and wouldn't happen with these shields either way: almost all of them have steel edges.
This is only true if the sword hits at a good angle and the 2her actually expects the bounce. Otherwise it can easily cause the 2her to lose balance, so that the shielder can get a quick stab in. On the other hand, really hard swings from a 2h sword at a shield can also put the shielder out of balance.