cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: SantostheLion on August 12, 2014, 08:58:33 am

Title: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: SantostheLion on August 12, 2014, 08:58:33 am
I tried to build a heavily armored warrior which could throw javelins as a main and melee as a secondary. After many a miserable failed hours of gameplay I realized that my accuracy was horrendous. I knew that being in heavy armor would hurt my throwing capabilities but I did not think that it would hurt to that extent. So I tried a loadout with moderate armor but it's still a fail!. The skill part of it I have down because Ive gotten some insanely long archer hits with the jav, or a speeding cav rider in the back. Ok so all in all I've realized that it's not a good skill to specialize in. I'll tell you why, for one why would anyone spend 100 or 120 points in a skill where your ammo is so limited and having such a short range? You throw a few and its over, melee time. The skill has almost no value after the 30 seconds of skirmish mode is over. Short range? makes perfect sense but why the atrocious penalty to accuracy when using such a short range weapon? I've thrown javs at archers standing still 15 feet away and they miss!! Then when you get spotted by a knight in full armor with megaathletics charging you with the speed of a monty python movie character, it's pointless to throw more than one jav unless you want to get skewered. So what are you left with? A freakload of archers because they can have 30 to 60 shots with a quick resupply from a nearby corpse and shoot at everybody all day long. That archer I hit with a really skillful throw? well he survives the hit, shoots faster than I do and manages to kill me in one shot or take 90% of my health with a body shot! seriously how is that balanced??  So you get the cookiecutter archer or the cookie cutter heavy knight with the same 4 skills. If you have any suggestions I'll take them but there's no point at all in wasting the skill points in throw skill if you want to be a heavy or medium heavy but I assure you the archer will outshine in every way. I then checked the damage calculator and to my surprise  :rolleyes: The heavy medium to heavy armored archer/crossbowman does more damage with a bow, has WAY more range, and at least 3 times the ammo. I don't really understand the huge damage penalty mainly. I suggest a much lower power throw penalty and armor weight penalty to WPF. It doesn't make sense that a long range (safe range) bow shot will be just as accurate and do more damage than a close range axe throw.
  Movement. Ok so the speed athletics grants seem a little high. Maybe not so much the forward movement but the sidestep/ direction change. In other words a knight could be running towards you and sidestep superfast and still run forward while hardly missing a beat. It looks like they are having a seizure while running toward you! I understand that it slows your movement speed a bit but the side to side movement speed is unaffected. Sidesteps should slow you down otherwise you have unrealistically agile knights in full armor face hugging you and running around you in circles while spam attacking you. :twisted:
  Maintenance. Ok so I farmed a long time to build my plate armored peltast but guess what? I fell into debt because the cost was ridiculous! yes I try and offset my lack of melee skill or my preference for a non cookiecutter build by farming and gearing up. But wow! If you want to fight in plate then you better have invested the hours to learn how to be great at melee or archery because only the veterans can keep the gold rolling in against the noobs to run with supergear. Seriously are you trying to scare away the new players? This forces one to play the ultra specialized melee fighter or the Super archer with mega athletics/1-hand circle spam attack of death. If you want to have fun It'll cost you! Then again there's the hit and run tactic of Cavalry units that you can rely on for easy kills and quick cash. Put an athletics speed cap on heavy armor and be done with it. Seriously I pay enough bills at home, I don't jump on a game I enjoy but suck at to be stripped of hard earned gear just because I'm an easy kill. Love the idea of the mod, and love the game and for the most part flippin excellent job and much appreciated for all the work put in.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: PsychoTwins on August 12, 2014, 09:12:57 am
TL DR

Im not sorry, that is a huge shitty paragraph blob.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Tanken on August 12, 2014, 09:36:45 am
Holy shit. Break up the text if you want me to take this seriously.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: SantostheLion on August 12, 2014, 10:00:01 am
Thanks king. Grammar aside the point's been made. As for you other jokers, sarcasm and insult is the retort of a weak mind. Contribute something useful or go troll somewhere else.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Grumbs on August 12, 2014, 10:01:29 am
There are tradeoffs to most things. Not saying its all well balanced (archers are too strong), but you don't do yourself any favours by using all that gear. You complain about moving slowly, but you're using heavy armour and each stack of your ammo is like 4 weight each. Now add that you are trying to kill people at short range so archers will kite you and you can't kite melee. You might throw a few (and do good damage) but then you will die as you say you're bad at melee and too slow to run away.

What level and build have you got btw? You should probably look in beginner area for tips on a thrower build. I imagine you want medium/light armour really, some decent athletics and just enough PT to use your ammo. You either build like a normal melee guy but with a few weapons to throw or you go pure thrower and can kite. I don't know why you think you should be able to do both efficiently, thats not really fair on other players is it? Why should you have heavy armour, throw stuff at people and run fast?

Archers are a problem for every class, but good luck getting them balanced. Doesn't mean throwing needs to be buffed though
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: bavvoz on August 12, 2014, 10:14:39 am
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on August 12, 2014, 10:06:25 am
Even the hated archers cant get away with heavy armour and being able to kite. Funny though, i have seen a few troll archers in gothic before xD never seen a kuyak-hero archer

What have u done? Now u have unleashed a new era of kuyak hero archers, unstoppable in its horrible fashion
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: SantostheLion on August 12, 2014, 12:01:32 pm
Grumbs thanks for the thoughts. I was trying to sacrifice Strength and melee capabilities as a trade off to wearing heavy armor and good throwing. right now at Lv 28 I have a 100 in polearms and 120 in throwing. 18 in agility and 15 Strength Putting anything in power throw lowers my wps, but you cant use stronger thrown weapons without it. So even going with PW 3 with javelins lowers my throwing significantly. My aim recticle is massive and the damage is minimal, nevermind the low ammo count and range. I used the damage calculator provided in the beginner's forum to see an archer with the same armor with a PD bow of 3 and the damage was greater. Try making a decent heavy thrower and you will come up massively gimped. At least with an archer I can fire all day with the amount of ammo at hand. BTW in the last few games i was in there was a knight in plate riding a heavy warhorse with a lance and heavy crossbow and topping the charts.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Molly on August 12, 2014, 01:27:45 pm
As Meow (RIP) once told me "Throwing is not supposed to kill people." and I think this still counts.
Throwing has always been the step-kid in the corner that everyone smiled at but nobody really cared about. I don't expect to change... ever...

Quote from: HESKEYTIME on August 12, 2014, 10:06:25 am
Even the hated archers cant get away with heavy armour and being able to kite. Funny though, i have seen a few troll archers in gothic before xD never seen a kuyak-hero archer
Shanks. 2h hero with 1PD bow. crpg has seen everything. There is no combination left that hasn't been tried by someone. :P
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: //saxon on August 12, 2014, 01:48:38 pm
oh wow my eyes after i clicked on this thread, feel sorry for anyone with dyslexia
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on August 12, 2014, 02:10:37 pm
Throwing is fine, the accuracy is decent and the damage is great at destroying infantry without shields. Being a pure thrower is probably the best way to go though, or atleast spread the wpf with only 100 or so in the melee weapon. It should never become too strong of a class, then every infantry would hybrid into throwing and it would become hell.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on August 12, 2014, 03:32:31 pm
I definitely recommend 150 throwing wpf minimum before splitting. Ranged classes receive a higher penalty from armor, so 120wpf + armor and you'll be experiencing pretty crappy accuracy/damage. Try a pure build or lower the melee wpf to ~50-60 and you'll see a large difference.

It's hard to be a hero with throwing, but you can secure a good 3-4 kills per round and can dominate close quarters with other throwers and melee working together.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Tzar on August 12, 2014, 03:43:09 pm
There is no reason to go full thrower, cause its shit, you can go in an contribute for 30 sec, then its gg.....

If you try a hybrid build you get fucked over by the wpf not being divided with the rest of the melee wpf. And your forced to play like an archer with only 6 bodkins, and a crap bow with shit arccuracy and missile speed...

But nonetheless im having fun with my STF thrower, thx to the ammo buff to throwing lances, its somewhat playable.

Like i allways said, throwers just need a bit of ammo buff across the board.




Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: SugarHoe on August 12, 2014, 04:39:18 pm
Throwing is pretty powerful as it is, the WPF loss makes it so you cant just wear full plate all the time and still hit stuff easily. Everything in this game takes lots of practice, eventually you should get used to medium/med heavy throwing. Just because you hit a few archers from long ways and few cav in the back doesnt mean that youre MLG PRO QUIKSCOpREKTMLGmy old friendOT.

Upkeep isnt that bad at all you just have to help your team be pro and get constant valor. I have around like normally 3-4 k upkeep and i still make money from the team carrying me, or getting valor
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: JackieChan on August 12, 2014, 06:49:37 pm
Quote from: Tzar on August 12, 2014, 03:43:09 pm
There is no reason to go full thrower, cause its shit, you can go in an contribute for 30 sec, then its gg.....

If you try a hybrid build you get fucked over by the wpf not being divided with the rest of the melee wpf. And your forced to play like an archer with only 6 bodkins, and a crap bow with shit arccuracy and missile speed...
Hybrid best build

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Rico on August 12, 2014, 10:04:39 pm
Hybrid mechanics are imbalanced.

Playable without high level requirement:

1h/hoplite: flexibility, wpf
1h/2h/pole: flexibilty, wpf
1h/crossbow, 2h/crossbow or polearm/crossbow: ranged weapon and melee, light armor or wpf penalty
melee cav: horse, -2 levels compared to dedicated build (riding skill)
ranged cav: bump damage, survivability, -2 levels compared to dedicated build (riding skill)

Really weak unless high level:

thrower/melee: gets throwing weapon and melee, loses 2 levels from PT, has low range so melee is a must and heavy armor a desideratum (accuracy penalty...)
archer/melee: gets bow and melee loses 2 levels from PD, carries 14 weight arrows (~6 AGI + 2 Athl lost)

However, most archers are dedicated archers because dedicated archery is playable. Throwers are usually hybrids because playing pure throwing without melee is barely viable since range and ammo are low, and it looks pretty ridiculous when some berserk axe thrower glances on medium armor. So I support you, OP: Even though throwing got some buffs lately and throwing lances became pretty nice, it is still not as strong as other classes.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Mendro on August 12, 2014, 11:08:08 pm
Tips : Drop your javelins and get jarids.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: AntiBlitz on August 13, 2014, 05:01:54 am
fix the fookin stacking issues, no reason that picking up a balanced throwing lance makes you drop an entire stack of equipment because it doesnt share the same name. 

On Another note, i had people telling me my lances were only doing 1/8th of their health with body shots.  Pretty sad how shit the lances are unless you are some kind of full throwing gimmick build.  Might as well pick up the spears or jarids since they are so much better.  This is with 6pt and 110wpf, at lvl 28, since i cant really split the wpf any better, i already have absolutely shit melee wpf with 46 pole.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: korppis on August 13, 2014, 07:02:27 am
To me it feels like throwing has the most random damage. Sometimes throwing lances deal minimal damage (like 20%), and then sometimes I still get one shot by a stone.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Tzar on August 13, 2014, 08:06:08 am
Quote from: korppis on August 13, 2014, 07:02:27 am
To me it feels like throwing has the most random damage. Sometimes throwing lances deal minimal damage (like 20%), and then sometimes I still get one shot by a stone.

(click to show/hide)

Anyways, devs need to take a closer look into the DMG / Ammo ratio to make throwing balanced.

Right now, you simply dont do enough dmg or run out of ammo to fast.

I have 7 PT and MW throwing lances, i still have to use 3 lances on decent armored players. Thats half my ammo stack, right now i just wait for people to bleed before i start to skirmish.

IMHO throwing is just for shit n gigles, STF or troll builds.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on August 13, 2014, 09:24:45 am
tinyurl.com/crpgcalc has accurate depictions for how much non-speed bonus damage you're dealing on body shots. Limbs take penalties to damage, too, up to like 65% or something (can't recall exactly).

Throwing lances by themselves have low maximum potential damage. You need to supplement that with at least 1 stack of throwing daggers to balance its potential compared to jarids and like 1.5 for throwing spears. Dealing 33 damage per hit against a guy with 67 hp will still require 3 shots. Maximizing ammo economy by switching between lances and melee/daggers is just a single tactic out of many that helps wrack more kills. Additionally, I feel that jarids/throwing spears/HTAs and TAs are all great when carrying 4 stacks.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Shemaforash on August 13, 2014, 09:47:09 am
Throwing is by far the easiest and most effective way to eliminate high priority targets in battle, assuming they aren't using a shield. Then you're fucked.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Andswaru on August 13, 2014, 11:03:52 am
Throwing missile speed is terrible tho, especially with things like the hammers and axes you see the missile coming inflight and have enough time to sidestep it. Give them a speed buff of roughly 3-4 points, Jarids and lances seem too arrive at much faster speed and have a better damage type against most common battlefield targets (pierce instead of cut/blunt). But thats just my view as a non thrower who hates fighting jarids other throwing projectiles of that nature but loves the slow motion spinning axes and hammers.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: SantostheLion on August 17, 2014, 06:52:02 am
I was trying out Javelins because my understanding is that the higher damage weapons reduce your  throwing wpf. at 4.5 armor weight my average dmg with javelin is 15 and wpf drops from 120 to 65. Throwing spears adds one more ammo per stack which is 2 because i carry a military scythe. Running with jarids will reduce my ammo count but increase average damage to 17.

   I don't stack up with kills because the accuracy penalty is redonculous, not only that but I try not to throw into melee combat as a way of honoring a duel plus I don't want to be that guy who friendly fires because of greed. So most of the time I'm throwing at archers which are hard to hit and are firing back much quicker, or I'm throwing at infantry which are quick to pounce.  My melee is weak compared to pure melee fighters so I end up loosing money with all the upkeep.

  That sounds nowhere near op to me. Like I said though, I can hit almost anything when I'm wearing almost no armor but I was still getting slaughtered because I either get one shotted by archies or charge the meatgrinder after my ammo was out. But like Andswaru mentioned, if you see them coming then they are pretty easy to dodge.

   Historically there were many armored warriors who would throw before engagement effectively, so saying that it's not a feasible build only applies to the game. The balance should come from the added weight and the skill points dedicated.
 
  Also loosing weapon accuracy with power throw?? I don't see the sense in that. But thanks for all the replies.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on August 17, 2014, 08:17:45 am
PT increases your accuracy and then the wpf penalty kicks in. Difficulty and damage also decrease it. It's convoluted. You're right in the fact that it's easy to just see the less damaging/lower difficulty weapons as more accurate.

A build that throws before engaging works fine, but in this game the tradeoffs against having a pure build gives each style merit. 2 stacks of throwing lances, throwing daggers, and a 0 slot 1hander works. So does your 2 stacks of jarids, 1 stack of throwing daggers, and military scythe. Efficient ammo economy and when to melee are both important skills. Throwing melee hybrid requires great melee skills to make up for the stat disadvantage if you want to prioritize melee or evenly distribute. Melee builds with a tiny bit of throwing are really only limited to throwing daggers at ranged.

Code: [Select]
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 15
    Agility: 21
    Hit points: 60

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 5
    Power Strike: 5
    Athletics: 7
    Power Throw: 5
    Weapon Master: 7

    One Handed: 13
    Two Handed: 13
    Polearm: 100
    Throwing: 142
This and 18/18 are the most generic builds that will work. I will personally increase throwing to 160 and get 54wpf just to melee somewhat decently against archers. A pure build can go 15-24 or 18-24/21-21 and 3 athletics quite easily if they don't want to melee that much, giving them much more throwing power.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: AntiBlitz on August 17, 2014, 04:57:30 pm
you shouldnt have to be a throwing gimmick build with all in stats to be a thrower, or else what in the hell is the point in it, its a useless strat item then. 
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Tydeus on August 17, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
Quote from: AntiBlitz on August 17, 2014, 04:57:30 pm
you shouldnt have to be a throwing gimmick build with all in stats to be a thrower, or else what in the hell is the point in it, its a useless strat item then.
It's not useless, it's that there aren't enough throwers(as their main) to warrant buying/looming throwing weapons so that you can ensure that every army has throwing. It's one of those things where you have to fulfill some requirement(have lots of throwers) in order to get the desired outcome, but the only way to fulfill the requirement, is to basically already have fulfilled the requirement and thus achieved your desired outcome (have clans with good throwing weapons).
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Mendro on August 17, 2014, 06:25:42 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on August 17, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
It's not useless, it's that there aren't enough throwers(as their main) to warrant buying/looming throwing weapons so that you can ensure that every army has throwing. It's one of those things where you have to fulfill some requirement(have lots of throwers) in order to get the desired outcome, but the only way to fulfill the requirement, is to basically already have fulfilled the requirement and thus achieved your desired outcome (have clans with good throwing weapons).

Price of throwing stuff in strat still high compare to others range class.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Tydeus on August 17, 2014, 07:06:07 pm
Quote from: Mendro on August 17, 2014, 06:25:42 pm
Price of throwing stuff in strat still high compare to others range class.
Quote from: Tydeus on August 17, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
It's not useless, it's that there aren't enough throwers(as their main) to warrant buying/looming throwing weapons so that you can ensure that every army has throwing.
Indeed, were they free, there'd be no reason not to. Convince chadz/harald to implement a price modifier for throwing weapons in strat (has to be done from the website).
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: AntiBlitz on August 17, 2014, 08:16:52 pm
Quote from: Tydeus on August 17, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
It's not useless, it's that there aren't enough throwers(as their main) to warrant buying/looming throwing weapons so that you can ensure that every army has throwing. It's one of those things where you have to fulfill some requirement(have lots of throwers) in order to get the desired outcome, but the only way to fulfill the requirement, is to basically already have fulfilled the requirement and thus achieved your desired outcome (have clans with good throwing weapons).

kind of speaks for itself if the population doesnt want to bother doing throwing or looming it for that matter.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: MURDERTRON on August 19, 2014, 07:21:21 am
Throwing weapons aren't more expensive than any other items in Strat, but the standard load out for a thrower, hybrid or not always requires 2 or more stacks of a throwing item, which makes it severely cost inefficient.  That is, compared to your standard two hand hero, polearm or shielder.  Maybe not expensive as cav, but generally not as efficient.  Of course, Strat economy is different than the upkeep system where you can't pay for the same item multiple times in a round, but in Strat you pay for all 2-4 stacks no matter what.

The solution would be to lower the price of throwing, of course.  Then consider raising the price of bows and crossbows, but lowering the price of the ammo,
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on September 09, 2014, 01:55:02 am
I'm not certain how throwing weapons can be economically viable for strat. Maybe if the ammo could be multiplied by 2-3 for strat using the same method as when they altered archers for a short while.

(Bump for more throwing discussion :) )
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Mendro on October 21, 2014, 02:39:10 pm
This topic need a bump with the throwing weapons nerf.

I really don't understand why you nerfed them. Now pure throwing build (or at least for str build) are weak.
Reduced throwing weapons damage + pushed people to get some if = huge nerf
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Mendro on October 22, 2014, 12:12:54 am
Bump, throwing damages are joke now   :cry:
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on October 22, 2014, 05:48:53 am
The list of throwing changes:

-All throwing weapons -1 dmg and speed because of the level increase
-Much lighter weight for most lower tier throwing weapons
-Throwing hammer +5 blunt (then -1 because of the above)

Low tier throwing weapons don't slow you down as much, so PT is a decent dump stat for melee, especially with the wpf changes where armor would take away all of your throwing proficiency. They're unviable against most melee, but are good against ranged, agi players, and mid-range support at 5-10 meters.

We'll really have to see how the game handles 33/12, 15/30, and 24/24 pure build throwers. 30ish damage per throw is no joke. Heavy cav also received armor/hp nerfs so they're comparatively easier to take down, even without the level increase.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Mendro on October 22, 2014, 01:48:49 pm
Thank for the answer san

Do you speak about changes with the last patch or the next patch?

Because :
Quote from: San on October 22, 2014, 05:48:53 am
-All throwing weapons -1 dmg and speed because of the level increase

Currently it's -2 dmg for jarids, heavy throwing axes, throwing lance and throwing spears

Quote from: San on October 22, 2014, 05:48:53 am
Low tier throwing weapons don't slow you down as much, so PT is a decent dump stat for melee, especially with the wpf changes where armor would take away all of your throwing proficiency. They're unviable against most melee, but are good against ranged, agi players

I agree, low tier throwing needed a little buff

Quote from: San on October 22, 2014, 05:48:53 am
We'll really have to see how the game handles 33/12, 15/30, and 24/24 pure build throwers

33/12 was no viable before the patch cause of slow speed, so I don't think it will change with this patch

I tried my old build 30/15 on my stf and I can tell you it's no more viable cause of 2 reasons :
- The current dmg nerf is heavy
- Global build are more agi way now . People moving too fast and it's harder to aiming now. Aiming was already difficult before the patch, but that was the price for high dmg build. I mean if I want to be more accurate I have to be really close of the enemies melee. But with 5 ath it's just a deadly way

It's nearly the same feeling with 27/18. I have a decent speed but my dmg and my accuracy still weak
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: dontgothere on October 23, 2014, 05:48:36 am
devs be all like "throwing has problems because people dont like throwing because throwing has problems"

it's not a natural phenomenon, it doesnt rain shitty throwing stats on crpg when el nino blows in, it's a problem caused by conscious decisions made by biased balancing and there were always other suggestions; a few work their way into the game like a year or two after being posted, once all the new nerfs are in ofc. devs saying they wont buff throwing because nobody likes throwing is just self-fulfilling

ironically the balance would have been better and it would have been less work for the devs if they'd just left throwing weapons stats as they were before and monitored how it plays out, given it time on real servers

like i've been saying for just as many years as i was insisting throwing hammers needed a damge buff which they have only just now after literally years gotten: there needs to be more to differentiate the capabilities or hybrid throwing (short-range backup for meleers) and pure throwing (lower range alternative to bows as a main weapon for skirmishers).
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Soldier_of_God on October 23, 2014, 07:26:37 am
MY eyes are bleeding oh my god, PLEASE learn how to post like you don't have autism. thanks.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on October 23, 2014, 07:32:50 am
I didn't realize a few throwing weapons received -2 damage, thanks for the heads up. The bad thing about letting things play out is that there usually is an immediate outcry for a while (ex. everything people complain about) so it was a safe approach at it.

I am going to try out some throwing builds for the next few days and see how it turns out. My first thought is +1 dmg -1 (or even -2 tbqh) throwing speed so throwers can't spam as easily with the higher wpf, but maintain the high damage from the level increase.

33-15 is quite great for a non-mobile build. I'm dealing 40-50 damage to most horses with flipping Throwing Spears,  and 25-30 damage to melee. But yeah, I have to rely on my teammates so I'm not swarmed. Great fun, though.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Xeen on October 24, 2014, 10:12:15 am
I think the last changes were really good, San.  As far as I'm concerned wardarts and the 0-slotters got a huge buff with the weight reductions despite the loss in damage(they're all about the always brutal headshots anyways).  Jarids/Spears losing some damage was necessary.  I don't think removing throwing speed would be a good change for balance and it would just contribute to an already underplayed class being less fun.  Less shots-per-second would be a good balancing mechanism, but increasing the wind-up for throws just makes it feel clunky and boring.

Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Mendro on October 26, 2014, 07:52:27 pm
Quote from: San on October 23, 2014, 07:32:50 am
33-15 is quite great for a non-mobile build

I'm playing it and damage still weak compare to my 30-15 build before the patch.
I understand why there is no more pure thrower now
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on October 26, 2014, 07:58:28 pm
The damage is virtually the same. The odd level 33-35 thrower like yourself isn't the only thing to consider now, but rather a possible 5-7+ people speccing to it at any given time.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: Mendro on October 26, 2014, 11:22:53 pm
As old thrower I'm just telling you pure thrower is no more viable .But you're right, it's not just about damage. As you said, we will see how the community handle with it.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: San on October 27, 2014, 03:14:20 am
Throwing could very well be worse or surprise people with how all of the changes interact, just saying that the damage between those builds are the same.
Title: Re: Throwing needs to be fixed. Maintenance & movement needs work.
Post by: QuisUtDeus on November 09, 2014, 08:22:57 am
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Thanks Heskey :)

The OP really has a point here. The throwing / 1h / shield hybrid is indeed weak, efficiency wise. I played one to 33 before patch and saw others do it and .. you can do ok with it but thats not because of the awesomeness of the build to be honest.

What I noticed is that in general but especially for this build the heavy throwing weapons seem to be a really bad choice. Throwing Lances are shit for some reason, and even Jarids with the 5pt you need kind of over-extend your hybrid build.

If I had to play a 1h shield thrower again I would definitely priorize melee and then give him 3-4pt throwing with like 80wpf as side-arm and use war darts or javs +3.