cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Panos_ on July 22, 2014, 10:29:22 am
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It`s slow, you need two thrusts with full speed to kill the average archer and it`s fucking expensive.
The fact that 90% of the lancers out there use lance/light lance proves how much unbalance there is between those 3 lances.
Either give a small buff to heavy lance (stats wise) or decrease its upeek cost
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I think it's the best one. It allows you a much greater choice of targets and much more safety when attacking due to added reach. You know it only has 1p damage lower than in the era in which every single lancer on the server used it? Thought you would enjoy shitting in twohanders faces even when they are fully aware.
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Ithas far more(lol) reach in practice then all the other lances, it is the ultimate cav tool for extreme safeplay and outreaching. Imo, it is not in any way worse then the lighter lances, probably even better but thats up to your personal preferences. And that is where these weapons are different fom eachother; mostly the speed. The lower tierlqnces allow for more stabs after eachother, whilst heavy lance has a slow stab. (also means it needs btter timing to hit the sweetspot, bc slow thrust)
Dqmage is way higher aswell afaik with the heavy lance, with unloomed Lance Isometimes need to hit something thre times before it dies, though i'm an 16/24(lvl31) arabian warhorse lancer, so my speed bonus is less.
Tl;dr: all lances have a different playstyle that comes with them, conparing them with eachother isnt relevant imo.
Btw: the reason I dont use Hlance is because I like to have quick stabs that go with close quarter cavving, h lance is the ultimate gay tool aswell, just playing it safe.
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weapon length: 175
weight: 1.6
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 175
thrust damage: 27 pierce
swing damage: 16 blunt
slots: 2
Couchable
Can't sheath
4.797
weapon length: 180
weight: 1.7
difficulty: 10
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 180
thrust damage: 28 pierce
swing damage: 16 blunt
slots: 2
Couchable
Can't sheath
5.474
weapon length: 190
weight: 1.8
difficulty: 11
speed rating: 75
weapon length: 190
thrust damage: 25 pierce
swing damage: 17 blunt
slots: 2
Couchable
Can't sheath
9.702
For almost double the price, you`re getting a lance thats weaker, slower but has better blunt damage :lol:
The reach may be a bit better ( +15 and +10) but your average player can easily counter your thrust with a thrust and basic footwork.
What I had in mind is this, either equalize the prices a bit ( heavy lance should cost 6.5k~) OR give it a speed buff, make it 80, instead 75.
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I never play lancer cav at all, literally never, but even I call that thing The Heavy Glance. Give it more dmg or slight speed buff or reduce the price, being weaker and slower and more expensive is too much just for the reach: You will get chambered by any infantry who are aware of you cause its SO slow how can anyone NOT chamber it, and if you do hit them you wont kill them.
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The reach may be a bit better ( +15 and +10) but your average player can easily counter your thrust with a thrust and basic footwork.
Except they can't unless they have a 165+ length polearm or a 125+ length 2h. Provided you don't suck.
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More speed on the weapon means the game gives your attacks less speed bonus.
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More speed on the weapon means the game gives your attacks less speed bonus.
But it does allow for more flexible gameplay
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Except they can't unless they have a 165+ length polearm or a 125+ length 2h. Provided you don't suck.
Chambering lances is a really easy thing, I honestly don't get why so few ppl do it. You can chamber couches again now also. Combined with the crappy angles, lance cav is so fucking gimped, I'm impressed by everyone who still sticks to it.
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That is because that didnt change anything for them, because all they do is backstab unawares...
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That is because that didnt change anything for them, because all they do is backstab unawares...
No way man, in native you can fight pretty well from horseback with a lance, off the side of your horse, fight off the 1handcav, in crpg, 1hcav gets right in behind you, you gotta run away and turn around or lead them into a teammate.
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Best lance imo, just watch how Master_cav abuses it.
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Chambering lances is a really easy thing, I honestly don't get why so few ppl do it. You can chamber couches again now also. Combined with the crappy angles, lance cav is so fucking gimped, I'm impressed by everyone who still sticks to it.
And an utterly useless thing unless you have a very light weapon or the horse moves really slow, I like chambering lances but the turn rate restrictions prevent it from actually leading to a hit to the horse. Then chambering lances has the same functionality as blocking them which is much easier. Lance cav is a great class and able to carry teams still.
More speed on the weapon means the game gives your attacks less speed bonus.
I think I have read cmp state that this is not true, though it definitely doesn't seem a myth when I play pike.
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Just leave the heavy lance for the good lancers, there are still some of those in the game. Like Teeth said, HL can outreach an awlpiker or a two-hander - something that the regular lance can't do. It'll also win head-on clashes against cavalry every time and is the only lance that I'm brave enough to try and outreach a great lance with instead of avoiding it.
For the rest of us noobs, who can't really figure out how outreach and hit people head on, there's the lance for backstabbing peasants and outreaching onehanders. Perfect balance imo.
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I used to be cav way back when the heavy glance was actually the heavy glance. Since the original buff it was easy for a good lancer to beat anything. If you headshot an archer at full speed not on a heavy horse it is usually a 1 hit as well.
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Heavy lance is good in the right hands still you get a nice hanging animation with it which gives you a bit of room for error on timing which is nice. But hey who ever said cav should be easy for everyone.
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Lance cav is terrible compared to 1h cavalry in cRPG, in other mods there's legitimate reasons to use lance as well as the sword
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Make it 4D on foot.
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That would be funny.
I do think heavy lance is tougher to use overall, but the parts where it excels at are great. Based on the current metagame, I don't think going back to 26p would be bad.
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It`s slow, you need two thrusts with full speed to kill the average archer and it`s fucking expensive.
The fact that 90% of the lancers out there use lance/light lance proves how much unbalance there is between those 3 lances.
Either give a small buff to heavy lance (stats wise) or decrease its upeek cost
Panos i made already a thread about the heavy (g)lane
http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/balance-the-heavy-lance/msg863458/#msg863458
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The reach may be a bit better ( +15 and +10) but your average player can easily counter your thrust with a thrust and basic footwork.
I think you're just bad at cav, and by bad at cav, I mean only a 3:1 k:D, not 4 or 5 to 1.
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I think you're just bad at cav, and by bad at cav, I mean only a 3:1 k:D, not 4 or 5 to 1.
Tydeus best player....
I actually snorted in real life, incredible how funny that sentence is.
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I think you're just bad at cav, and by bad at cav, I mean only a 3:1 k:D, not 4 or 5 to 1.
Honestly the only the only difference between 3-1 and 5-1 is being willing to exit when you're about to die.
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Once I started to consciously avoid holding for longer than 2-3 seconds, attacking with the heavy lance became a lot easier. With the other more damaging weapons, you don't have to worry as much about such a thing.
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Once I started to consciously avoid holding for longer than 2-3 seconds, attacking with the heavy lance became a lot easier. With the other more damaging weapons, you don't have to worry as much about such a thing.
Players don't "refresh" their hits to get the most damage out of them at all times?
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I would hold for a second longer than I should, because I would focus on how to approach an enemy. That took a few seconds by itself, and I had to learn to refresh even when close. I guess a more apt description of what I said was not to hold more than 1-2 seconds, not 2-3, which means refreshing a lot more often than I did before.
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Get a faster horse, or get more power strike. With 8 power strike on a courser it destroys people, even with 6 PS on my level 30 alt it's a beast. The reason I use it is because it allows you to go up against any other lancer out there and not be at a reach disadvantage. I also like that you can outreach a couched great lance if you time it just right, you can't do that with a lance.
The lance is an amazing weapon too though, I think it's the best lance overall (can still take on other cav, but likely will get outreached by a heavy lance user that is competent). It is fast and hurts like hell so it's great for playing cav the correct way, which is attacking infantry (not other cav). But since I have A.D.D. and attack other cav I use the heavy.
Also san makes a good point about the hold times, it's very important to be "refreshing" so you're not holding for an extremely long time.
I think you're just bad at cav, and by bad at cav, I mean only a 3:1 k:D, not 4 or 5 to 1.
KDR is not really a good indicator, at least IMO. I think I'm one of the best cavalry players in NA (at least whenever I'm playing, even on my shitty work laptop nowadays). And I only have a 2.3:1 KDR.
10406/4449, 2.3:1
You're basing your numbers off of people who would leave the server if they lost one round to avoid having a bad KDR. They only cared about their KDR, not playing seriously. Cav like me, who continue playing even on non-cav based maps are going to have that hurt their potential KDR. But since I don't care about my KDR, I'm not going to leave to just artificially pad it. I can easily go 5 or 10:1 KDR on cav friendly maps.
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Heavy lance is best lance for fighting other cav hands down. Also best for head on thrusts and couches, not counting the couch-only lances. If all you do is backstab infantry then yes other lances are obviously superior.
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Heavy lance owns. Mix it with the recently buffed super courser that is "faster than the fastest recorded race horse" (saw Tydeus say that in battle) and you are on your way towards becoming a true crutch master.
If heavy lance gets buffed again, i am calling shenanigans.
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I only briefly looked over this thread because reading opinions from people who are really bad and don't understand things is worthless(every balance post Panos has ever made), but the ones I read don't seem to understand how to use the Heavy Lance at all.
The reason you all think it is really bad, and that the Lance is better is because none of you are good enough to be able to 1v1 Infantry players and kill them, which is where the Heavy Lance is absolute king and the Lance cannot even come close to it. I know you're all just gonna say "b-bbut the person can just block down and be invincible" but that is really not the case because if you understand how to couch correctly with the Heavy Lance, it will convincingly outreach any weapon shorter than an Awlpike and is actually surprisingly hard to dodge for most people if you do it right.
For all you bad Cavalry players who just attack people from behind or go after archers, the Lance is better though which is obviously why you think that.
Although what I would suggest is to up the damage of every lance, and nerf bump damage so the actual damage equals out to the same in the end, just its more reliant on your stab/couch hitting than just blocking and bumping..
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If it's not a polearm > 150 length, I like the option of being able to stab them outright or bumpstab with the lance at a moment's notice. With the heavy lance, I feel I have to prepare for the bump stab ahead of time and can't react to them going to the defensive as easily. That's why I like both lance and heavy lance equally in upfront attacks on infantry.
Also, I have 5PS on my current heavy lance guy 15-24, so that's why I have a certain bias about my attacks and have to use whatever damage multiplier is available. KD is only 4.5 but I do play cav on maps like pueblo village/city maps sometimes. Huseby, you have improved, so I think yours would have been higher if it had been reset. I think kd (and score moreso) is pretty indicative of performance even if it's not perfect such as killing peasants or leaving on disadvantaged maps.
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KDR is not really a good indicator, at least IMO. I think I'm one of the best cavalry players in NA (at least whenever I'm playing, even on my shitty work laptop nowadays). And I only have a 2.3:1 KDR.
10406/4449, 2.3:1
You're basing your numbers off of people who would leave the server if they lost one round to avoid having a bad KDR. They only cared about their KDR, not playing seriously. Cav like me, who continue playing even on non-cav based maps are going to have that hurt their potential KDR. But since I don't care about my KDR, I'm not going to leave to just artificially pad it. I can easily go 5 or 10:1 KDR on cav friendly maps.
You should try cavving on siege once, it can be very challenging and fun
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If it's not a polearm > 150 length, I like the option of being able to stab them outright or bumpstab with the lance at a moment's notice. With the heavy lance, I feel I have to prepare for the bump stab ahead of time and can't react to them going to the defensive as easily. That's why I like both lance and heavy lance equally in upfront attacks on infantry.
With the Heavy Lance you should try force people into only having one viable option so you never have to react fast to what they are going to do, because you already know what it is. Like when you are going to stab someone you turn left so much that if they try dodge to their right they are going to get bumped full speed, and then you can stab to your right and move into inwards so if they at all try to anything that isn't blocking down they will get hit.
You can also slow down when you are going to lance someone head on and stay just out of their range, and wait for them to jump at you first, if you do that you have plenty of time to react and stab the right spot, or you can speed up at any time and bump them if they block down.
These are really important parts of being good at cavalry and they are things I don't think the Lance can do very well at all because that 10 length is actually hugely significant vs things like Longswords or especially Greatswords and 2d Polearms.
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Yes, but I am simply greedy. Them blocking = a loss to me, I want to deal damage to them as close to 100% of the time as I can :twisted:
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Also, I have 5PS on my current heavy lance guy 15-24
Why do you need 8 riding anyway?
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I like going after other cav and being able to use every horse. 12-27, 12-30, 9-30, 9-33 are also quite fun, and would've done 12-27 if my boots weren't 13 difficulty.
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My KDR is only 3 this generation, last it was a tiny bkt under 4. If I were a sperghard I think I could be at 4 or 5. My current KDR includes my peasant grind, and probably a hundred or so deaths of me just fucking around leeching with a practice sword or challenging myself to play naked or off my horse, etc.
Also I refer to the heavy lance as the heavy glance.
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If a heavy lance cav fights a lance cav or light lance cav, the heavy lance should always win because of length. It is THE ultimate cav weapon.