cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Strudog on July 05, 2014, 11:51:43 am

Title: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 05, 2014, 11:51:43 am
Currently rolling around on Eu1 with a Hafted blade on horseback and all i can say it is bollocks compared to all the other cav, its slow, does very little damage and bounces off pretty much every armour apart from peasants and lightly armoured people.

In all honestly this is what all cav should be like, slow and heavy with a need of sense of timing in order to achieve a kill

Dont forget the inability to bump slash
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Glyph on July 05, 2014, 01:00:48 pm
Currently rolling around on Eu1 with a Hafted blade on horseback and all i can say it is bollocks compared to all the other cav, its slow, does very little damage and bounces off pretty much every armour apart from peasants and lightly armoured people.

In all honestly this is what all cav should be like, slow and heavy with a need of sense of timing in order to achieve a kill

Dont forget the inability to bump slash
I would love to see Cavalry become more realistic, but the is very difficult to achieve really, for cav to work properly, teamwork is needed to perform a mass charge, which would kill so many people in one, but that isn't really possible because of how easy it is to hit cav, someone with a 1hander shouldn't be able to easily slash someone off his horse, the guy on his horse should have the advantage, and ofcourse the scare factor is hard to implement into a game. Back to your point though!, I do agree that hafted blades from horseback should be buffed, is there a penalty on them for usage on hb?
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Molly on July 05, 2014, 01:09:01 pm
Wait, isn't your thread title wrong then or did I misunderstand you?

You say cav should be like HB on horse back. So, actually you'd like the see everything else nerfed?
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: San on July 05, 2014, 09:57:31 pm
Checking real quick, it seems to get ~40% damage reduction, hoooly.. It was also fairly difficult to get the maximum sweetspot, often doing 40-50% range of damage instead of 60%.

They could use a considerable buff.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Riddaren on July 06, 2014, 04:02:31 am
with a need of sense of timing in order to achieve a kill

You do need to time thrusts with lances. If you don't you will suck as a lancer.
It became even more important after the -40% speed bonus nerf.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: San on July 06, 2014, 04:54:32 am
Isn't melee speed bonus still exponential at 2?
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Palurgee on July 06, 2014, 05:58:58 am
I say no to buffing the hafted blades. They're fantastic infantry weapons (fast, long, reasonable damage and a thrust). They don't need to be any stronger, especially on horseback, where they are already very wonky and awkward.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on July 06, 2014, 06:16:37 am
I think it's odd that they get a bigger damage penalty on horseback than 2h-only weapons, they're already harder to get headslashes with.

If anything it should be a smaller penalty since they're using both hands.

I'm not counting the bastard weapons, which apparently get no penalty from horseback now based on San's tests. It sort makes sense that bastard weapons get a smaller penalty than regular 2h anyway.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 06, 2014, 11:00:08 am
I say no to buffing the hafted blades. They're fantastic infantry weapons (fast, long, reasonable damage and a thrust). They don't need to be any stronger, especially on horseback, where they are already very wonky and awkward.

No doubt that they are very good as an infantry weapon, but try it on horseback, bloody difficult to get the timing right and to achieve kills, i started to do better yesterday evening and topping the scoreboards but all my kills were peasant kills or on foot when i was dehorsed.

You do need to time thrusts with lances. If you don't you will suck as a lancer.
It became even more important after the -40% speed bonus nerf.

See the difference between lancing and hafted blade in sense of timing, lancing just got a buff in timing and it is rather easy to land a hit.

Isn't melee speed bonus still exponential at 2?

PLus the swing is so slow, i am pretty sure you can get 2 1h swings in before the LHB animation finishes
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 06, 2014, 03:08:31 pm
Tried it earlier as well.

And yes, it is incredibly difficult.

I used the Long Hafted Blade. Its swings are so enormously slow and do no damage at all. I used 6 power stike and while going full speed with an Arabian Warhorse I did not one hit kill a lvl5 peasant wearing rags. In fact, I bumped him afterwards and he still did not die.

And swings glance most of the time, getting a glance-hit in works OKish, but getting a sweetspot hit in is terribly difficult. During about an hour of playing it, I probably got 2 sweetspot hits in. With 170 wpf.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 06, 2014, 03:35:31 pm
Dont forget the inability to bump slash

Bump slashing definitely is possible, just did it once. But it is a lot harder than with 1h since the weapon speed is incredibly slow.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Kafein on July 06, 2014, 06:58:34 pm
Both hafted blades are too strong on foot and ridiculously weak on horse. The riding maluses could probably use some tinkering.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 06, 2014, 07:13:55 pm
Starting to get into it, and I gotta admit that it is incredibly much fun :D But yeah, the damage output is fairly low, but the low attack speed is somewhat of an advantage in certain situations if you are used to it. So I guess fixing the damage is badly needed, the attack speed is alright. Especially considering wielding a weapon with both hands on horseback is kind of cumbersome.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 06, 2014, 09:47:21 pm
Starting to get into it, and I gotta admit that it is incredibly much fun :D But yeah, the damage output is fairly low, but the low attack speed is somewhat of an advantage in certain situations if you are used to it. So I guess fixing the damage is badly needed, the attack speed is alright. Especially considering wielding a weapon with both hands on horseback is kind of cumbersome.

Have you found the left swing is faster than the right swing?
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 06, 2014, 09:53:41 pm
Haven't paid attention to that yet to be honest :D But will make sure to check next time I play.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: darmaster on July 06, 2014, 10:19:08 pm
yup buff LHB on horseback, nerf 1h cav, at least the bump and slash thing, nerf bump damage. that would be enough.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: MURDERTRON on July 08, 2014, 06:12:14 pm
What was changed since the days of LUBU?  I've tried it before and was able to do reasonably well with it back in my lance cav days.  However, I think I tried it again more recently and it was absolutely atrocious.  I couldn't land a solid hit to save my life.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 08, 2014, 06:21:15 pm
Getting into it properly now.

Getting positive K/Ds most rounds. But if I subtract my kills after being dehorsed my overall KDR is <1. Considering when I play normal Lancer my KDR is about 3:1 and 1h cav about 2:1 I think it proves that the L/HB is somewhat underpowered on horseback.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Battlepriest on July 09, 2014, 12:18:22 am
I use a mw lhb and can confirm that the slash is RIDICULOUSLY SLOW on horseback. Like, unrealistically slow. You would have to purposefully be limiting how quickly you swing in order to swing that slowly. I have only ever managed to get 5 kills with that thing on horseback in my 2 years of playing crpg. buff pls
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 09, 2014, 07:00:33 pm
Everybody please buy Arab Warhorses and LHB on strat. Switching my main to it :D
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 09, 2014, 08:39:14 pm
Everybody please buy Arab Warhorses and LHB on strat. Switching my main to it :D

Copycat, just joking, jump on the band wagon!!! (Just got myself a +3 long hafted blade and going to go 21/18
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 09, 2014, 08:56:47 pm
I'm too poor for getting any masterworks, but a +0 one is fine :D

18/21 > 21/18 :D
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Macropus on July 09, 2014, 09:35:12 pm
Have you found the left swing is faster than the right swing?
It sure is. Sideswings animations are inverted on horseback, so leftswing from a horse looks like right swing on foot (which for polearm is the fastest).
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Battlepriest on July 09, 2014, 11:38:19 pm
go 21/15 like me

use those 3 attribute points on 3 shield and 2 riding so you can be ultra-utility man
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 09, 2014, 11:40:11 pm
go 21/15 like me

use those 3 attribute points on 3 shield and 2 riding so you can be ultra-utility man

2 Riding? We have been talking about using the LHB on horseback the whole time :D Not gonna get very far with 2 riding lol
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 10, 2014, 12:37:47 am
2 Riding? We have been talking about using the LHB on horseback the whole time :D Not gonna get very far with 2 riding lol

Dont underestimate LHB on Donkey, most powerful combo.

Im gonna give 21/18 a go, don't see the need to ride an arabian, destrier will be perfect for me
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Battlepriest on July 11, 2014, 08:50:12 am
2 Riding? We have been talking about using the LHB on horseback the whole time :D Not gonna get very far with 2 riding lol

2 riding for sumpters, lets you get to the ladders faster on siege
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: PsychoTwins on July 11, 2014, 11:03:22 am
Tried it on a stf awhile back and the only real potential it had was sneaking up on enemies. I could see LHB cavs being a good potential counter to HAs though because the swing in front of your cav would be great for slashing at the backs of the HAs (granted you are able to catch them).
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: jtobiasm on July 11, 2014, 11:09:08 am
Row that boat
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 11, 2014, 11:15:51 am
Just found the sweet spot, its not where you think it is, its at the back of the horse, towards the start of the swing. Once you find it, the class becomes pretty effective..

Just got this on EU1, 20-4 with only about 4 of those kills being on the ground playing as inf.

I don't think it needs a buff anymore, its hard to get right but thats what i like about it, something that not everyone would want and can use.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: PsychoTwins on July 11, 2014, 11:25:43 am
Are most of your kills 1-2 hits? Do you even bother trying to take on the longer poles with great rear ability?
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 11, 2014, 11:54:18 am
Yep, well, I guess a slight damage buff to counter the -40% damage might be nice, but LHB on horseback actually is very viable and by far the most fun cav class, if not the most fun class.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 11, 2014, 11:58:35 am
Are most of your kills 1-2 hits? Do you even bother trying to take on the longer poles with great rear ability?

its 2-3 hits with 6 PS and maybe more for heavily armoured guys, i only take on pole guys if they are not looking even then that's very risky, i tend to hunt down the archers.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: BlueKnight on July 11, 2014, 02:24:07 pm
i tend to hunt down the archers.
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Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: BlindGuy on July 11, 2014, 03:37:28 pm
Should be MUCH faster. Sad to me that lances cant be swung too. Polearms from horseback were historically top fucking notch. Watch Seven Samurai, couple of guys in that are using LHB from horseback and they are spamming like crazy. Watching that, I checked japanese martial history: was a popular weapon, widely used by samurai.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Herezy92 on July 11, 2014, 03:43:57 pm
its 2-3 hits with 6 PS and maybe more for heavily armoured guys, i only take on pole guys if they are not looking even then that's very risky, i tend to hunt down the archers.
We can test it somedays on eu3 with my armor if you want strudog. Just let me know.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 11, 2014, 04:15:59 pm
We can test it somedays on eu3 with my armor if you want strudog. Just let me know.

Would be up for it as well.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: San on July 11, 2014, 05:37:37 pm
That's due to the nature of cav being able to double your damage. Using the damage reporter, I saw 1h/2h cav dealing 100-130 raw damage, while a LHB dealt 50-70, 80 if I was lucky, all with 15-21 builds. Slashing when you're still tells you how much damage you're really doing without speed bonus. My final performance in an afternoon was 1.4:1. I was able to get top 3 a surprising amount, but the damage was so low that I rarely got kills. Instead, most of my success came from downing other horses to acquire points.

I might try playing on it some more to get a better understanding, probably with a pure cav build of 15-24 or 18-21 this time. Left swing when facing the right side also has a peculiar hitbox in front of you.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 11, 2014, 08:01:44 pm
I think a slight damage buff is all it needs. Speed adjustments would help making it easier for people who literally just started using the LHB on horseback, but it would be sad to see it being mass abused, so leave the speed as it is, make people play it a lot to get into it. Then they will be rewarded with a huge amount of fun.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 11, 2014, 10:36:30 pm
I think a slight damage buff is all it needs. Speed adjustments would help making it easier for people who literally just started using the LHB on horseback, but it would be sad to see it being mass abused, so leave the speed as it is, make people play it a lot to get into it. Then they will be rewarded with a huge amount of fun.

This

That's due to the nature of cav being able to double your damage. Using the damage reporter, I saw 1h/2h cav dealing 100-130 raw damage, while a LHB dealt 50-70, 80 if I was lucky, all with 15-21 builds. Slashing when you're still tells you how much damage you're really doing without speed bonus. My final performance in an afternoon was 1.4:1. I was able to get top 3 a surprising amount, but the damage was so low that I rarely got kills. Instead, most of my success came from downing other horses to acquire points.

I might try playing on it some more to get a better understanding, probably with a pure cav build of 15-24 or 18-21 this time. Left swing when facing the right side also has a peculiar hitbox in front of you.

Yes i agree, im starting to top of the scoreboard with decent amount of kills, 10+, all it needs is a slight dmg buff, 18 STR+ is what you need to use in terms of build, 15 STr glances too much
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: San on July 11, 2014, 11:08:54 pm
18-21 it is, thanks!
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 11, 2014, 11:29:37 pm
18-21 it is, thanks!

Yep, that is why I have been using. Works well!
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: San on July 12, 2014, 03:36:33 pm
I tried it again and did much better, ~3.9 performance across 7-8 maps. Strudog, your advice was very helpful, since I kept aiming at those diagonally in front of me before and had to change my thought processes. Ranged are also absurdly easy to hit if they don't have enough time to switch to a melee weapon.

The angles are awkward, but I eventually adjusted to the speed. I think that the penalty should just be halved to 20% for now,  maybe even 25%, and will bring this up whenever the next opportunity arises that makes it possible to change.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: PsychoTwins on July 12, 2014, 03:50:51 pm
I think that the penalty should just be halved to 20% for now,  maybe even 25%, and will bring this up whenever the next opportunity arises that makes it possible to change.

Agreed, theres no way the LHB on cav should take a huge dmg penalty compared to lance cav and 1h cav.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 12, 2014, 04:18:24 pm
I tried it again and did much better, ~3.9 performance across 7-8 maps. Strudog, your advice was very helpful, since I kept aiming at those diagonally in front of me before and had to change my thought processes. Ranged are also absurdly easy to hit if they don't have enough time to switch to a melee weapon.

The angles are awkward, but I eventually adjusted to the speed. I think that the penalty should just be halved to 20% for now,  maybe even 25%, and will bring this up whenever the next opportunity arises that makes it possible to change.

Glad I could help, seems like a reasonable change to me, seems like it will be the most balanced class of all, it's a lot of fun, I will play it solidly from now on and hopefully put up a thread in the beginners section about how to play the class, once I am more experienced with it.

Hopefully with you and switch's help we could put up a good thread.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Switchtense on July 12, 2014, 04:21:55 pm
Glad I could help, seems like a reasonable change to me, seems like it will be the most balanced class of all, it's a lot of fun, I will play it solidly from now on and hopefully put up a thread in the beginners section about how to play the class, once I am more experienced with it.

Hopefully with you and switch's help we could put up a good thread.

Would be happy to help with it!

It currently is the only class I play on open maps cause it's so much fun :D
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: San on July 12, 2014, 04:29:20 pm
It's fun. A nice combo on another horse is to right swing on your right side as you approach, then follow up with a left swing on your right side as well.
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: Strudog on July 14, 2014, 12:29:19 am
i saw there was a new patch today, im guessing the buff to LHB on horseback did not go through?
Title: Re: Buffing Hafted Blades on horseback
Post by: San on July 14, 2014, 12:31:22 am
Cav penalties require WSE2 I believe, so it's going to be a long while before the next update.