cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Macropus on June 13, 2014, 08:59:58 pm

Title: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on June 13, 2014, 08:59:58 pm
Shields difficulty should be removed.

Dedicated shielders would put skillpoints in shield anyway to get decent speed/coverage and resistance.
And others could just pick up something to cover themselves.
Honestly there's no reason to restrict shields usage.
Mkay.

PS: to ranged players I say: no u!
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: //saxon on June 13, 2014, 09:16:17 pm
bold statement, interesting.


can be a good idea though, these days if you play melee you are overwhelmed by ranged players and forced to just wait, dunno about CHN or NA but EU had a dramatic increase to ranged class, i don't mind it at all but i notice it having a toll on melee classes. not really fun tbh  :?
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on June 13, 2014, 09:21:23 pm
Would rather see some more shields go to 0 or 1 shield skill requirement rather than all shields go to 0. Would look goofy as shit seeing anyone in the server pick up big-ass heavy heaters and huscarl shields.

(I have 1 shield skill on my main so I'm one biased-ass motherfuck)
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Admiral Ballsack on June 13, 2014, 09:26:27 pm
Shields difficulty should be removed.

Dedicated shielders would put skillpoints in shield anyway to get decent speed/coverage and resistance.
And others could just pick up something to cover themselves.
Honestly there's no reason to restrict shields usage.
Mkay.

PS: to ranged players I say: no u!

Lol, this would be a huge fuck you to ranged. Though lets be real here, if I could play without shield skill and put points into iron flesh that would be OP. There are already a few 0 skill shields already to choose from, that last a few arrows what would be the difference if you changed more shields to 0 skill requirement other than balance issues?

NOT TO MENTION ALL THE HEAVY CAV WOULD HAVE SHIELDS AND NEVER DIE
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Panos_ on June 13, 2014, 09:28:11 pm
Make all shields to require 0 shield skill, but add Strength difficulty to them.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on June 13, 2014, 09:28:49 pm
The point is - having a shield causes enough penalties (upkeep, weight, unability to fight with anything except 1h and spears) by itself, no need to requre skillpoints on top of that.
Shield skill should be used for those who fight with a shield, not those who just use it as an antiarrow barrier.
Just like it works in Native. Everyone can pick up a shield, yet not everyone carries one all the time.

It might requre some balancing with shields stats though.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: San on June 13, 2014, 09:41:58 pm
It would make more sense to just make them like weapons: Difficulty based on strength, shield skill has more tangible effects on speed/coverage/shield bash than all of these hidden values with a slight general buff to the skill. The prices would need to go up considerably more than what they currently are, maybe up to 9-10k, just so mid-value shields can get used a bit. Final damage mitigation is crappy for a skill all by itself (with unknown speed/coverage where we don't even know if even works the way we believe). I also thought that shield stats may need to be changed, but maybe not as much as previously thought in its current condition.

People are going to hate what I say next, but the offensive shield bashes with high shield skill should deal a decent amount of damage and have a better passive block effect against projectiles. Currently, it's foolish with little reward to try a bash in front of a held shot, and worse than most of the other nudges. I'd rather use the 1h nudge for offense and the polearm nudge for defense.

The disparity between not being able to pick up a shield vs. the nature of shield skill conflicts with eachother gameplay-wise. Shield makes sense for agility, but it doesn't make sense as a difficulty requirement based on the current shield animations. This game doesn't have any techniques or the like that makes me believe that you have to be well versed in the way of the shield to hold up a Huscarl's, unlike being properly trained to ride an arabian warhorse.

Even so, doubt much will really happen in the end.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on June 13, 2014, 09:44:58 pm
Currently, it's foolish with little reward to try a bash in front of a held shot.

That explains why I do it so much when I carry my dinky 1 skill shields, then.

Nah, it actually doesn't seem TOO bad, but it's really a non-issue to most people, since most on the battle server aren't even aware you can knock people down with offensive nudges if they are holding. Most shielders seem to think the only nudge you can use with a shield is the defensive nudge while holding down the s-key.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: San on June 13, 2014, 09:49:59 pm
You can knock down ranged with a nudge, but you can also just walk into them while blocking and achieve the same effect for being just a few cm closer. If you miss the nudge, you can still easily get shot it seems. I got punished for it once, and I'm not in the mind to test it that often. Maybe someone well versed in nudging against ranged fairs a better chance :D
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on June 13, 2014, 09:52:46 pm
You can knock down ranged with a nudge, but you can also just walk into them while blocking and achieve the same effect for being just a few cm closer. If you miss the nudge, you can still easily get shot it seems. I got punished for it once, and I'm not in the mind to test it that often. Maybe someone well versed in nudging against ranged fairs a better chance :D

Sorry, I thought you meant "swing" instead of what you actually wrote. Assumed you were talking about offensively shield-nudging an s-keying held swinger. Poor reading comprehension hnnnngh.

Yeah, there is little reason to nudge down a ranged player with a shield. I do it quite a lot when I'm shieldless, though. I can generally get 2 swings off rather than just wailing on him and getting 1. Plus, I just like being able to say in TS

"I just put that motherfucker in the dirt!"

I do agree that the offensive shield nudge should have a better shot at catching an arrow or two and do a small amount of damage to unarmoured opponents.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Rebelyell on June 13, 2014, 09:53:54 pm
We have to bash resonable topic for two years sooooo... Maybe..... Nah next year
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Dionysus on June 13, 2014, 10:21:17 pm
I almost totally forgot shield skill was not required to use shields in Native. I'm for changing it to a Strength requirement or just reverting it back to what it was like in Native.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: //saxon on June 14, 2014, 01:04:17 am
you should add a poll yes or no agree or disagree.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on June 14, 2014, 01:05:14 am
you should add a poll yes or no agree or disagree.
I'm not asking people if they agree or not, I'm just telling them how it should be.  8-)
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Sparvico on June 14, 2014, 01:36:25 am
Make it so you can hold any shield in front of you to block ranged, but if you don't have the required skill points to use it make it automatically be put on your back when you try to swing with it out (maybe make it give extra penalties to speed and wpf when on the back of people with no shield skill). This would simulate the idea of any old idiot being able to pick up a piece of wood and hold it in front of them, but only trained people actually being able to fight with it effectively. Maybe even make it so it auto drops the shield when they try to swing.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: //saxon on June 14, 2014, 02:59:03 am
Make it so you can hold any shield in front of you to block ranged, but if you don't have the required skill points to use it
have you ever played dark souls? when you don't have the required STR to use a certain shield properly its dramatically slower in blocking and raising than if you had the required STR. alot of dark souls fans will understand what i mean.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Yuang on June 14, 2014, 03:03:39 am
In CHN servers, the big strength archer has become BUG. Their arrows so accurate, so great hurt. Their numbers so much that a lot of players do not like to play.

So this is a good suggestion.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: PsychoTwins on June 14, 2014, 03:18:30 am
In CHN servers, the big strength archer has become BUG. Their arrows so accurate, so great hurt. Their numbers so much that a lot of players do not like to play.

So this is a good suggestion.

You can not say no to this guy.  :D
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Nehvar on June 14, 2014, 03:36:51 am
I agree.  Time to throw "get a shield" back in their faces.

I like San's plan except for the part about bashes.  Make it happen!
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Legs on June 14, 2014, 03:49:45 am
You can not say no to this guy.  :D

He should be the CHN liaison. They need one after all.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: San on June 14, 2014, 03:53:21 am
In case I didn't clarify, meant bash damage mostly on opponents holding attack. Neutral/holding block not so much.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Jona on June 14, 2014, 04:09:04 am
In case I didn't clarify, meant bash damage mostly on opponents holding attack. Neutral/holding block not so much.

There is absolutely no reason why a shielder should be able to utilize an unblockable, damage-dealing strike while the other classes can't. They already have the most powerful nudges, being able to nudge from any stance alone is a huge advantage. Why should smacking someone with a shield deal damage while striking them with a pommel, punching them (with a heavy gauntlet on), or whacking them with a shaft (huehuehue) not deal any damage? Heck, the pommel strike is probably the hardest nudge to land, and it would probably be the most harmful in real life as well. Sure, getting hit with a shield wouldn't be at all pleasant, and no mater how much armor I have on (unless perhaps fully-plated) I would most likely try and doge such an attack, from a gameplay standpoint it would be unfair... fast enough 1handers can still land a free hit with the offensive nudge as-is, and now you want to make such a nudge deal damage? :rolleyes: The only thing that needs to be done with nudges now is optimizing their hitboxes, as they are pretty shitty across the board. Removing the capability to land a free hit would also be nice.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Thomek on June 14, 2014, 04:23:18 am
Interesting idea. I'd say something have to be changed with the stats being heavily dependent on shield skill then. Also durability.

Perhaps some kind of exponential durability curve that culminates in full durability when shield skill is satisfied.

I mean.. Ranged is not much fun imo, but neither are walls and walls of shields..
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Malgalad on June 14, 2014, 05:21:37 am
 :| If all shields have zero difficulty, are we sure the shieldwall can defend one wave AI army on DTV server?
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2014, 05:25:18 am
Could give range a bit more punch again as well.

At the moment I don't care at all when I get shot up, it takes so little HP it's not worth worrying about. Even arbs to the head don't ohk me :/

I took 3 throwing lances two more war darts and then hacked two people to death before taking two more hits from a long sword before I went down... I mean it's great, I feel like a boss taking so many hits but... :s

----

Shield skill could also remove the penalty to attack power for 1h holding a shield. So the heavier the shield the more skill you need to remove the debuff.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: stickher on June 14, 2014, 07:40:45 am
meant bash damage mostly on opponents holding attack. Neutral/holding block not so much.
NO!, its a good idea and it makes sense but you cannot block nudges; so free dmg for shields if it were to happen. Make nudges blockable first if anything
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Panos_ on June 14, 2014, 07:42:06 am
:| If all shields have zero difficulty, are we sure the shieldwall can defend one wave AI army on DTV server?


yes, because Shield Skill will improve the durability of your shield.

What Macropus is asking is pretty simple, make Shield Skill non mandatory for the usage of shields, but mandatory if you want them to be good.

Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: stickher on June 14, 2014, 07:50:43 am
also can we make throwing weapons 0 difficulty. i would personally hate it but it makes sense. any MAN can pick up an axe and chuck that mofo at someone, doesnt mean they will be accurate.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2014, 08:03:28 am
also can we make throwing weapons 0 difficulty. i would personally hate it but it makes sense. any MAN can pick up an axe and chuck that mofo at someone, doesnt mean they will be accurate.

As trollish as that sounds it would be pretty cool.

Just reduce the effectivness of the thing by hefty amounts for every point under it's req. It would be pretty cool to see everyone lining up with shield and piles of shit axes before ripping out the 2h for the full on skirmish not to mention it would really change up field strat battles.

This shit is really worth considering.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: stickher on June 14, 2014, 08:20:58 am
well with 0 points in pt and in the proficiency you lose 10% dmg per skill + accurate and i think points into throwing also makes you throw your weapon faster.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2014, 08:24:31 am
well with 0 points in pt and in the proficiency you lose 10% dmg per skill + accurate and i think points into throwing also makes you throw your weapon faster.

They will all need a damage buff though, as PT will now bring you up to their min specs instead of boosting you up. Which isn't a bad thing.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Shanghai_Brave on June 14, 2014, 11:09:14 am
YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on June 14, 2014, 11:17:28 am
Interesting idea. I'd say something have to be changed with the stats being heavily dependent on shield skill then. Also durability.

Perhaps some kind of exponential durability curve that culminates in full durability when shield skill is satisfied.
Even if you leave all the stats as they are now, and just remove shields difficulty, people are not going to suddenly spawn with shields all the time. Carrying a shield all the time is not worth it unless you can fight with it. Picking up a shield when you really need it to take cover, on the contrary, is a very useful option.

As for the stats, imagine every current 4 difficulty shield would take 32% more damage and be much slower. Sounds quite useless to fight with such, so shielders would still take shield skill. However, this skill should indeed get buffed a little, as for now there's very little reason to go above your shield's difficulty.

It actually works the same way for any items having difficulty (except maybe horses). If you make all bows and throwing weapons 0 difficulty, nothing would change significantly. People who don't specialize in these kinds of weapons just wouldn't bother to bring ones into the battle. Just imagine the damage you'd cause with a long bow or jarids without any PD or PT, it's pityful. You wouldn't want to carry extra 5-10 kg just for that.

So if my suggestion gets implemented, the onlly advantage anyone would get is the option to pick up this piece of wood lying nearby to take some cover, nothing more.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Thomek on June 14, 2014, 11:28:35 am
well.. would make most 2h/pole heroes more invincible to ranged for sure.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Riddaren on June 14, 2014, 11:55:43 am
A good idea (that has been suggested and supported for years).
But why fuck up the poll options? I don't think that will help.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Bulzur on June 14, 2014, 11:58:15 am
Would need to change all the current shield stats, and the shield skill bonus.
And i'm not sure if it's worth it.


Why not just add a couple more 0 shield skill shields ?

On the other hand, if shield's difficulty was strength, we would see way less Agi High shield skill  + dagger.

As for the shield bash, since it's unblockable, i don't see why it should get a damage boost. I'm already so annoyed when fighting a shielder, not even trying to attack until he can bash again.


Lastly, this change would actually fuck up throwers :
1. They have way less ammo than regular range (archers + xbow), so any ammo wasted on a shield hurts them.
2. They have crap range, so it's difficult to catch an unaware opponent. Even if it's a 2h or Polearm, he'll have time to take out his 0 shield skill shield and then walk to us.
3. Hybrid throwers would not benefit at all from thoses shields (for example a 2h/thrower with jarids, using up all his jarids, would technically have 2 free slots. BUT, unless it was fixed, the 0 ammo still take slots...)
4. Huge buff to dedicated turtle shielders. Since all shields can be taken by all players, it will be far easier for thoses guys to pick up shields on the battlefield, and you'll need another dozen of attacks to break it again, then they'll run away again to find another shield, etc...

All in all, i'm really not in favor of that change. It's not that much build-breaking to put 1-3 points in shield skill, and carry a decent shield with it, just for thoses pesky range. Stop trying to be min-maxers with your perfect optimized melee build, and complain about range.


So, why not do a double requirement : strength AND shield skill ? Since most builds would have 9 STR at least.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: [ptx] on June 14, 2014, 12:11:09 pm
What is this, a sensible and realistically doable suggestion, that would also have a major impact on the game? Get out of here, this is the cRPG forums!
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on June 14, 2014, 12:20:44 pm
A good idea (that has been suggested and supported for years).
But why fuck up the poll options? I don't think that will help.
I thought "Give them run" option is a mandatory...

All in all, i'm really not in favor of that change. It's not that much build-breaking to put 1-3 points in shield skill, and carry a decent shield with it, just for thoses pesky range. Stop trying to be min-maxers with your perfect optimized melee build, and complain about range.
I think you overestimate the effect such change would have. I tried to explain why, in my previous post.
And by the way, I do have 4 shield skill, and I find spawning with a shield quite useless most of the time, instead I pick up some shield if I need to, closer to the end of round. But I just think shields should be a more common thing in this game, even though it might become nesessary to buff ranged if my suggestion gets implemented.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Shanghai_Brave on June 14, 2014, 12:34:22 pm
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEL  shields difficulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: cxalc on June 14, 2014, 05:39:40 pm
cant agree more
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: OssumPawesome on June 14, 2014, 08:53:57 pm
this thread is just 2h/pole users trying to nerf the only class thats remotely good against them. if everyone can have any shield without spending points archers will disappear.  I, for one, would miss the class and the variety it provides to the game.

why not just use a 0 requirement shield?
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: StonedSteel on June 14, 2014, 09:21:43 pm
0 difficulty shields? really? hmm...

*pictures a 36-3 guy in full plate with a long dagger and huscarl shield, PLUS whatever weapon is his actual main* > he wouldnt even need a main weapon, or a dagger, you could literally run around punching people and keep picking up shields. And with 0 difficulty everyone would have them, there would be shields everywhere. The drawback to being an invincible monster, is your slow as hell, easily ganged on or shot to death, STR whores are thee easiest targets for ranged. You really want to give a 36-3 build the option of a heavy board auto-blocker?

really?
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Nightmare798 on June 14, 2014, 10:13:21 pm
No no no no no!

Why the heck should be that dude with 0 shield able to carry a shield, when I have actually invested in the skill?

That is like asking for every 2H weapon to be usable with shield.

EDIT: Also, fix the fucking 2H and pole animations already. I am tired of this turn speed insta-slashes bullshit.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Sniger on June 14, 2014, 10:13:52 pm
yeah, render shielder class pointless and add more polearm tincan heroes with huscarl shields, great idea, but oh well its already fucked so whatever :lol:

request from polearm user. subliminal "buff my class" disguised as "fuck range".
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: bagge on June 14, 2014, 10:18:28 pm
I like the idea, I vote yes.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Nightmare798 on June 14, 2014, 10:20:03 pm
I like the idea, I vote yes.

You are fucking masochist bagge...
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: bagge on June 14, 2014, 10:27:14 pm
You are fucking masochist bagge...

lol
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Kafein on June 14, 2014, 10:28:41 pm
I agree but honestly, shield skill is worthless on its own. Even pure shielders would go with 0 shield skill if it stopped being a requirement. That wouldn't be a huge problem actually, as it would fix the balance of melee classes a bit.


People that think there would be shields everywhere never played with a shield for more than one hour.
Even worse, those claiming that this would somehow reduce the hegemony of ranged classes must be eating shrooms.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Jarlek on June 14, 2014, 10:44:51 pm
0 difficulty shields? really? hmm...

*pictures a 36-3 guy in full plate with a long dagger and huscarl shield, PLUS whatever weapon is his actual main* > he wouldnt even need a main weapon, or a dagger, you could literally run around punching people and keep picking up shields. And with 0 difficulty everyone would have them, there would be shields everywhere. The drawback to being an invincible monster, is your slow as hell, easily ganged on or shot to death, STR whores are thee easiest targets for ranged. You really want to give a 36-3 build the option of a heavy board auto-blocker?

really?
You should be able to destroy a huscarl shield with 3-5 attacks (depending on PS) with any pole/2h axes and 1-2 more for 1h axes. This is with the damage reduction that 5 shieldskill currently gives.

Even with exactly the same stats, someone with 0 shieldskill and a huscarl would have the shield break in less than 3 hits from any 2h/pole axe and very realistically less than 5 of any NON-shieldbreaking 2h/poles and I doubt more than 10 hits maximum for any non-shieldbreaking 1hs.

Quote
*pictures a 36-3 guy in full plate with a long dagger and huscarl shield, PLUS whatever weapon is his actual main*
So worst case scenario: someone in full STR, full plate with a huscarl and max 1 shieldskill would be able to block 10 times before the shield break. If you can't hit a guy with 1 athletics, full plate and a dagger 10 times without him killing you, then the problem isn't the shield. It's you.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Aprikose on June 14, 2014, 10:50:20 pm
If u do this u can remove range from crpg...it would be totally worthless xD
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Rico on June 14, 2014, 10:53:53 pm
inb4 December 2010

Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Little Lord Lollipop on June 14, 2014, 11:18:18 pm
-Make all shields require strength
-Remove all shield forcefields
-Shields on back block projectiles the same way a held shield does
-Shield skill improves durability, shield speed, and reduces movement penalty from shielding
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: San on June 14, 2014, 11:20:59 pm
Using a Hide Covered Round Shield at 0 shield skill, 68 width, it's quite difficult to ensure a block against ranged. You'll have to use a round shield with 78 width or a huscarl or something to get decent coverage. Currently trying a round steel buckler with 9 shield and I have yet to be shot around it (likely possible, but a challenge).

Shield skill would need to be changed so it's not so lenient at 0. Maybe even make it a penalty like -15% with a scale of 15 for 1-3, 10 for 4-9, and cap it at 9 (can only get 10+ with a shield wall). Shields would need to be more expensive so you can't just pick up a super 6k gold huscarl, maybe 10-11k. Scale up strength requirements to 18-21. Shield skill should also have an effect on shield upkeep. Maybe some experimentation with shield speed > 100 could also be used with some lower tier shields and bucklers to give them a reason to be used outside of upkeep. This will make it so 0 shield skill isn't OP and provide a proper scaling to make shield skill more worthwhile. Shield skill 4 = 40%, which is the current value, then 10 afterwards until 9 shield.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on June 14, 2014, 11:27:50 pm
request from polearm user. subliminal "buff my class" disguised as "fuck range".
Well, I had 4 shield skill as a polearmer and also I respeced to archer like an hour ago, so... No.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: OssumPawesome on June 16, 2014, 03:30:03 am
hegemony of ranged classes

this is a joke, right?
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: STR_aD_Sargon_eqv on June 16, 2014, 10:24:41 pm
NOT TO MENTION ALL THE HEAVY CAV WOULD HAVE SHIELDS AND NEVER DIE
1) they do have it anyway
2) do u ever saw heavy cav the last month?
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Nehvar on June 17, 2014, 04:17:33 am
If u do this u can remove range from crpg...it would be totally worthless xD

Don't get our hopes up like that.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Herezy92 on June 17, 2014, 10:52:36 am
Macropus is just a point (+) farmer  :D
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Grumbs on June 17, 2014, 11:03:37 am
I'd support this if 1 handers became 2 slot. I don't want to see more OP xbow builds

Also I feel that 1 handers in general will become more OP with higher PS or athletics
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Teeth on June 17, 2014, 11:28:58 am
I thought this through a little and it seems like a completely doable suggestion and the impact on the game will not be as significant as some of you most likely imagine. As someone who has hoplited a long time with 3 shield skill, using anything other than my wide Round Shield utterly sucked as it gave no coverage whatsoever. Shield skill makes a shield much and much better and no shield skill shield users will fair poorly against archers at bad angles, let alone against melee. I doubt a lot of players are going to use a shield much without shield skill, it really blows while the shield slows you down as much as it has always done.

What it will allow however is in a situation where there is a lot of ranged alive on one team, which is a fairly common situation at least on EU, everyone that can find a shield can pick one up and at least charge straight at one archer with reasonable safety. It will allow an entire team spawning with shields and making a big ass fucking shield wall which grants all of them +7 shield skill. It will allow a degree of freedom of play and adaptability that I think has been sorely missing from cRPG ever since 2010.

I say do it.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on June 17, 2014, 12:07:57 pm
Also I feel that 1 handers in general will become more OP with higher PS or athletics
Whether 1h or xbows would become OP or not is really a different issue not directly linked to the main idea. All such detail could be balanced in the future by reducing base shields stats and increasing the shield skill effect etc.
(click to show/hide)

But the main idea is to make everyone able to pick up a shield, which is pretty much inspired by Native and it works fine there, doesn't it?

Anyway, Jarlek and Teeth managed to word the whole thing of this idea much better than I could, so just read their posts.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Ujin on June 17, 2014, 01:54:15 pm
I rarely get into discussions about crpg gameplay mechanics lately, but i have to intervene to say that (in my opinion) this might be a great idea for a number of reasons.

1. It may completely change the way that public battles are fought on the servers. Somebody (i think Thomek) earlier in this topic mentioned that shield walls are no fun, but i have to disagree. The ability to form a shield wall can bring at least some rudimentary tactical elements to the rather chaotic battlefield that is EU 1 usually. It's the simplest formations of them all and it is commonly used in Strat battles for a reason.

2. It will definitely make the axe-type weapons more useful, leading to more variety in the arsenal of commonly used weapons on the servers. This is especially true for 1h axes. On top of that, if you ask me at least , it will make the battles look kinda more realistic, shields were a must-have on the battlefields for centuries for a good reason. Afaik they only started to lose popularity when everyone went full tincan.

3. This implementation (or rather reinvention of the old Native ways), whether it works (with tweaks, per se) or not , might be a good testing ground for  the future M:BG mechanics. We all know that sooner or later cRPG is gonna fade , so why not use this opportunity and test some things out for the future game ?

P.S. i run with throwing lances these days so i guess you can call me a ranged player, so no bias.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Sniger on June 17, 2014, 08:19:21 pm
-Make all shields require strength
-Remove all shield forcefields
-Shields on back block projectiles the same way a held shield does
-Shield skill improves durability, shield speed, and reduces movement penalty from shielding

this would make it more realistic.

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Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Konrax on June 18, 2014, 01:18:56 am
You can knock down ranged with a nudge, but you can also just walk into them while blocking and achieve the same effect for being just a few cm closer. If you miss the nudge, you can still easily get shot it seems. I got punished for it once, and I'm not in the mind to test it that often. Maybe someone well versed in nudging against ranged fairs a better chance :D

Can confirm, shield has 0 block on range during a nudge
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Konrax on June 18, 2014, 01:35:06 am
Going to make another post for this all together:

Not sure I am a fan of shields having a strength requirement, but it could be possible IF and ONLY IF shield skill was still based on Agility, AND if shield skill actually helped with reducing a shields weight while moving.

Secondly it would require that all shields across the board had a higher weight to discourage wanting to take the super heavy beefy shields without any shield skill whatsoever.

By removing shield skill requirements, if specs do not change, shielders will see a buff in block speed unless you run a 100speed shield with 3 or more shield skill. (Assuming speed values from the shield skill remain unchanged) Heavy shields with a spec above 6 would have a comparable speed to a 100 speed shield currently, making husc with skill of 7+ the same speed as an elite cav / heater shield. To balance this, the heaviest shields should require 18-21 strength at the most, to avoid any potential insta block steel shield agility nonsense.

I am a fan of the idea of everyone being able to pick any shield up and use it, I also feel that it won't artificially buff xbows or anything that much bc of the movement penalties associated with taking a shield (if they were heavier) and having no skill in shield. Essentially range could take advantage of being tougher to kill at a range, at the cost of speed and maneuverability. (Easier to catch kiters)

It could work well if it was implemented properly, that being, it would appeal to players to take a shield to reduce the overall effectiveness of range, and dedicated shielders were given an actual advantage of some kind for taking shield skill.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: BY_BlackMask on June 18, 2014, 06:44:20 am


Skill points can be determined using the effect
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Porthos on June 21, 2014, 09:12:22 am
+1 to every Macropus non-playful suggestions. He is smart guy and knows the truth. Think for yourself - shield is not gold. So give all freedom. Seriously.
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: dreadnok on June 21, 2014, 04:34:53 pm
It would make more sense to just make them like weapons: Difficulty based on strength, shield skill has more tangible effects on speed/coverage/shield bash than all of these hidden values with a slight general buff to the skill. The prices would need to go up considerably more than what they currently are, maybe up to 9-10k, just so mid-value shields can get used a bit. Final damage mitigation is crappy for a skill all by itself (with unknown speed/coverage where we don't even know if even works the way we believe). I also thought that shield stats may need to be changed, but maybe not as much as previously thought in its current condition.

People are going to hate what I say next, but the offensive shield bashes with high shield skill should deal a decent amount of damage and have a better passive block effect against projectiles. Currently, it's foolish with little reward to try a bash in front of a held shot, and worse than most of the other nudges. I'd rather use the 1h nudge for offense and the polearm nudge for defense.

The disparity between not being able to pick up a shield vs. the nature of shield skill conflicts with eachother gameplay-wise. Shield makes sense for agility, but it doesn't make sense as a difficulty requirement based on the current shield animations. This game doesn't have any techniques or the like that makes me believe that you have to be well versed in the way of the shield to hold up a Huscarl's, unlike being properly trained to ride an arabian warhorse.

Even so, doubt much will really happen in the end.

san, thank you for caring about this game. your a smart dude
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Viriathus on August 03, 2014, 01:50:50 pm
let the free respec come!
Title: Re: My opinion, mkay
Post by: Macropus on August 03, 2014, 04:59:36 pm
But its not the "free respec" thread, its "free shields" thread.   :|