cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Sparvico on April 30, 2014, 07:55:13 pm

Title: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Sparvico on April 30, 2014, 07:55:13 pm
Could someone explain to me the logic of the stats on the Knightly Kite Shield?

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First off, it weighs less than most comparable shields, which means whenever you get stuck near a mauler you're going to have a bad day.

Second, it has one more body armor than the Hand Pavise Shield, but nearly 100 less hit points (yet its difficulty is greater).

Third, it is a bit taller than the hand pavise and knightly heater, but height matters very little to anyone with 5 shield skill. I can count on one hand the number of times someone has shot over or under my shield if I have 5 shield skill. Even with lower tier shields the bubble is substantial enough that no one really manages it, even when they are above you, as on a castle wall.

Now what is important, or should be important to any decent shielder, is the width stat, I cannot count the number of times some has either shot, or just plan swung around the side of my shield at an angle that just doesn't appear correct. The wider the shield the better, that is why for all of strat 4 the go to shield for most people was the heavy round shield, the 84 width was amazing in open field battles, and on castles.

The only redeeming stat of the Knightly Kite shield is that it is fast, but then it is not faster than the two counter-parts above.

So to recap, you get less body armor, hit points, weight, and worse overall usefulness of shield dimensions, and you have to spend an extra point in shield skill to get it?! It just doesn't make any sense.

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Edit: Oh and did I mention that the Heavy Kite Shield is taller (and only being 2 less in width), has essentially the same body armor, and 100 more hitpoints. It's only slower by 4 units, but you only have to put in 4 shield skill to get it!

If i'm getting a shield for wieght, I'm not getting the Knightly Kite Shield.
If i'm getting a shield for speed, I'm not getting the Knightly Kite Shield.
If i'm getting a shield for height, I'm not getting the Knightly Kite Shield.
If i'm getting a shield for body armor/hitpoint values, I'm not getting the Knightly Kite Shield.
If i'm getting a shield for any combination of those things I'm not getting a Knightly Kite Shield.
Frankly it seems no one with any sense will be getting a Knightly Kite Shield at all.

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Post Edit Disclamer: I do not own, nor have I ever owned any level of loomed Knightly Kite Shield in any shape or form (to the best of my knowledge and memory).
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Grumbs on April 30, 2014, 10:16:19 pm
The weight comments to me are kind of redundant. If someone has a maul it doesn't really matter what weight shield you have, if they are getting a crushthrough it will happen regardless. I always prefer lower weight with a shield since movement speed adds to your range, helps with avoiding attacks, increases damage etc. I don't know if it should require 5 shield skill though, or it could have a bit more armour
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Sparvico on April 30, 2014, 10:59:50 pm
I actually find that people don't crush through my shield as often if it has a higher weight. Not so much with the great maul, but with the long maul and the things like the mallet. Might be down to other variables besides the shield weight though.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Grumbs on April 30, 2014, 11:23:46 pm
Nothing wrong with having a bit of variety though. If you want a light shield Knightly Kite Shield is currently the best stats/weight I believe. If you want a heavy one then there are also lots of pick from

When it comes to mauls I just hold the overhead a sec and nothing will stop the crushthrough, except other maulers with more strength
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Sparvico on May 01, 2014, 01:05:52 am
Elite Cavalry Shield
Type:Shield
Requirement:4 shield
Weight:4.5
Upkeep:266 gold

Speed:100
Width:64
Body armor:25
Hit points:250

Knightly Kite Shield
Type:Shield
Requirement:5 shield
Weight:3
Upkeep:385 gold
Speed:100
Width:46
Height:66
Body armor:25
Hit points:270


So then an entire level of difficulty is only worth 20 extra hit points and a little bit more maneuverability?

As for great mauls I totally agree with you, but mallets and the low tier maul just don't crush through my 5.5 weight shield that often. Maybe maulers in NA or just not good, or maybe they have less str, but idk man, I just don't see it on my end.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Thryn on May 01, 2014, 02:29:25 pm
The statistics discrepancies between the KKS and other shields is one of the bigger balancing issues at the moment, but devs should first:

1) Fix autobalancer
2) Fix/tweak gamemodes (like the 40 second MotF in ~10 man battle, maps, etc.)

After the aforementioned, I will gladly put my faith in the item balancers.
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Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Tydeus on May 01, 2014, 03:40:08 pm
I would(and do) take the KKS over any other shield atm. If you think weight is insignificant, then you probably aren't the type of person who would have gained the most out of the KKS to begin with(talking about its older stats), since it's much more difficult to use than any of the large shields. Furthermore, if you're wanting weight to counter CT, you're fighting CT wrong and deserve to be crushed. To fight CT, you want to spam them any time you see an overhead. If they feint with a left/right to an overhead, you have to react fast enough to hit them(generally a left swing works), before the overhead lands. There's some other stuff you want to do against good CT players, but that comes after getting the basics of fighting CT down.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Thryn on May 01, 2014, 04:04:15 pm
I would(and do) take the KKS over any other shield atm. If you think weight is insignificant, then you probably aren't the type of person who would have gained the most out of the KKS to begin with(talking about its older stats), since it's much more difficult to use than any of the large shields. Furthermore, if you're wanting weight to counter CT, you're fighting CT wrong and deserve to be crushed. To fight CT, you want to spam them any time you see an overhead. If they feint with a left/right to an overhead, you have to react fast enough to hit them(generally a left swing works), before the overhead lands. There's some other stuff you want to do against good CT players, but that comes after getting the basics of fighting CT down.

generally when i fight ct, i awp mid when they cross and push long hard - ak headshot is extremely useful if you land it properly

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Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 01, 2014, 07:03:16 pm
I always used the KHS, my bro the KKS.  I think the KHS is still much better even with 2 more weight.  Because the most important stat (of those 3 shields Sparv is comparing, is the body armor/ (should be called resistance) stat).  Even before it had a slight buff, I never had a projectile go through my shield.

I personally think the KKS should still be 4 shield skill.  I would be pretty pissed if the KHS went up to 5 shield skill.  But if the KKS should be 5 shield skill, then so should pretty much all the 4 shield skill shields.  Which I think would be a mistake (since a lot of us have final builds around 4 shield skill, and bumping our shields up to 5 difficulty has no significant improvement to the game other than just to fuck some people over). 
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Tydeus on May 01, 2014, 08:23:34 pm
generally when i fight ct, i awp mid when they cross and push long hard - ak headshot is extremely useful if you land it properly

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Generally, yeah. The real question is: do you aim between the doors, or shoot through the left as the guy on B tries to cross?

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Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Phew on May 01, 2014, 09:28:44 pm
Sparv, shield width only affects lateral coverage against projectiles. Every shield from bucklers up through Huscarl have the same crappy coverage against melee swings. You are correct that shield height is mostly useless, although it's important for cavalry, as a tall shield encompasses almost their entire horse in a giant forcefield.

I like all the options for lighter shields with less HP; if you have high shield skill, non-shieldbreakers never break your shield anyway, so you might as well trade some shield HP for mobility. No shield below the Steel Shield really helps against crushthrough, but weight is important re: block stun. A 3kg shield will even get stunned by held attacks from greatswords, and that sucks.

I don't think the devs/balancers should worry too much about shield stats; they all are good enough against non-shieldbreakers, and break really fast against shieldbreakers. All the issues with shields are with the skill itself (not much reason to spec above the shield's requirements) and the wonky nudge hitboxes. There is also a bug where after you release your shield block then immediately hit RMB again, you won't block again for a short period, even though it does the raise animation. This gets me killed more than anything else.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Teeth on May 01, 2014, 10:07:01 pm
First off, it weighs less than most comparable shields, which means whenever you get stuck near a mauler you're going to have a bad day.
So everytime you get near a mauler your 3 weight is a disadvantage, which is about 0,3% of the time you play. The other 99.7% you move faster because of this low weight, 3 weight is obviously an advantage.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 01, 2014, 10:14:46 pm
There is also a bug where after you release your shield block then immediately hit RMB again, you won't block again for a short period, even though it does the raise animation. This gets me killed more than anything else.

I'd say when I'm on the ground, that is what gets me killed the most too. Even though 100 shield skill and above is supposed to be the same speed as manual blocks (instantaneous) it gets me killed all the time. 
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Phew on May 01, 2014, 10:22:20 pm
I'd say when I'm on the ground, that is what gets me killed the most too. Even though 100 shield skill and above is supposed to be the same speed as manual blocks (instantaneous) it gets me killed all the time.

I've noticed that it's pretty much instantaneous if you aren't currently blocking, but if you've been blocking then release the block but immediately block again, there is a <1s delay before your block is active again. Manual blocking doesn't have this limitation. This is the #1 thing that holds shielders back in duel-type situations; if they fall for a feint and drop their block, they can't recover.

Manual blockers can release their block to entice someone holding their attack to release it, but shielders just have to wait it out. People always rage at me on duel server for dueling with a shield, but I don't want to get used to all the luxuries that manual blockers enjoy in 1v1 (wider lateral coverage, no delay before they can block again after releasing block, etc). It's why I notice a lot of pro manual blockers are actually pretty crappy when they play their shielder alts.

Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Dark_Blade on May 01, 2014, 10:38:45 pm
heh was going to make this thread
yeah the weight seems to be the only advantage of this shield compared to the rest of shields from this type
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Tydeus on May 02, 2014, 12:52:41 am
There is also a bug where after you release your shield block then immediately hit RMB again, you won't block again for a short period, even though it does the raise animation. This gets me killed more than anything else.
I'd say when I'm on the ground, that is what gets me killed the most too. Even though 100 shield skill and above is supposed to be the same speed as manual blocks (instantaneous) it gets me killed all the time.
That's not a bug, that's called blocking not being instant, and a 100 "speed" shield blocks significantly slower than a 100 speed weapon. This is another reason why shields don't provide such "clear" advantages as people seem to believe. If you're a skilled player, you have absolutely no reason to be using a shield in a 1v1, unless you're looking for a handicap.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Grumbs on May 02, 2014, 01:34:06 am
That's not a bug, that's called blocking not being instant, and a 100 "speed" shield blocks significantly slower than a 100 speed weapon. This is another reason why shields don't provide such "clear" advantages as people seem to believe. If you're a skilled player, you have absolutely no reason to be using a shield in a 1v1, unless you're looking for a handicap.

I think theres a bit more to it. If you're the last man in a 1v1 then i'd put my money on the guy with a shield opposed to the guy with just a 1 hander assuming both players are just as good as each other and just as keen. You have weapon stun and the potential to make a mistake, which you can minimise with a shield. Another thing is the way feints work, they seem to be a lot less risky when you cancel an attack direction since every time you cancel you will block any attacks. You can take your time with a shield more too. Even the best players don't have 100% block, they make mistakes eventually. The longer you draw out a fight the more likely a shielder is to win I think

After saying that though I do prefer manual blocking. Possibly since I will play more aggressively
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Sparvico on May 02, 2014, 01:49:37 am
I wasn't talking about dueling CT, nor even fighting it in ideal situations (i.e. plenty of room to maneuver). I was speaking specifically of blocking one or two CT (from a none great maul) in a situation where you cannot back-peddle or otherwise get out of it. I am not the type of shielder that just bails on my team mates and runs the moment I see a CT weapon.

I guess what I really don't understand is the 5 difficulty level requirement. It only seems a tiny bit better than the 4 skill shields in one area. I mean the horseman's kite shield has very similar stats, to the point where the difference between it and the knightly kite shield doesn't seem to justify 3 extra levels of difficulty.


Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: San on May 02, 2014, 02:25:03 am
Looking at 40c 7PS 170wpf using +3 values against 5 shield (40% final damage reduction and assuming shield damage works like armor)

Hand Pavise:      418hp 28armor: ~35 damage per hit reduced to 21, 20 hits final (although barely under 20)
Knightly heater: 285hp 39 armor: ~27 damage per hit reduced to ~16, 18 hits final
Knightly kite:      323hp 29 armor: ~34 damage per hit reduced to ~20, 17 hits final (although just barely over 16)

Worst case may have a difference of 5-6 hits between knightly kite and hand pavise, but it will still remain somewhat close to the knightly heater overall.

Shields may not work 100% like armor, but the point I am trying to make is that looming to +3 gives a smaller % advantage with the +53hp and +4 armor. This makes the knightly kite both light and durable. Knightly heater would also be much more effective against lower damage attacks and ranged. Hand pavise is a little strong, but it is heavier.

It's a little on the weak side overall, but it pays more for its light weight. It could live with a few points more armor (or nerfing the elite cav shield)
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Phew on May 02, 2014, 02:33:47 am
That's not a bug, that's called blocking not being instant, and a 100 "speed" shield blocks significantly slower than a 100 speed weapon. .

I'm not talking about the miniscule delay every time you press RMB; I'm talking about the <1s delay after you drop a block during which a subsequent block isn't active. This delay seems to be the same whether it's a 60 speed shield or a 103 speed shield, and it's a very frustrating mechanic. It's only an issue with melee blocks; you can tap RMB nonstop while approaching an archer and still be OK, thanks to passive projectile blocks.

If you aren't currently holding a block, 100+ speed shields let you wait until almost the last millisecond before you have to press RMB. However, if you've been blocking then drop the block, you have a significant delay until you get to block again. The raising animation activates as normal, but you get hit anyway. It's the the thing that holds shielders back the most in duels (moreso than the poor lateral coverage against melee, the normal block delay, and the extra weight).

Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: San on May 02, 2014, 02:45:07 am
That is annoying, Phew. It feels like it's shield-only, but it's difficult for me to tell whether it's a factor for all types of blocking and the shield playstyle makes it more noticeable, or if it just doesn't affect manual blocking at all that way.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Thryn on May 02, 2014, 03:15:30 pm
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I've killed quite a few shielders with simple attacks because this delay makes it seem like they are blocking a swing when in actuality they are not. It's a small window of opportunity that you can (somewhat) abuse, making shielders in that split second vulnerable. My best guess to counter this problem is just wait until you hear the sound of the attack hitting before releasing your block. It's not really that big of a problem, considering it will just raise the learning curve for new shielders a little bit.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Phew on May 02, 2014, 03:29:30 pm
I've killed quite a few shielders with simple attacks because this delay makes it seem like they are blocking a swing when in actuality they are not. It's a small window of opportunity that you can (somewhat) abuse, making shielders in that split second vulnerable. My best guess to counter this problem is just wait until you hear the sound of the attack hitting before releasing your block. It's not really that big of a problem, considering it will just raise the learning curve for new shielders a little bit.

It's easy to say "just wait for the shield block sound before you release block", but remember that holding RMB slows you down, making your more susceptible to kicks. Weapon blockers have the luxury of being able to raise/drop their blocks as frequently as they want without penalty, so they can have full mobility while their opponent is spamming feints at them. Shielders can't do anything during their opponent's attack phase but face directly at them holding RMB; it's just dull and predictable.

I'd love for this "double block delay" to be removed, but I'm sure its WSE2/only cmp can fix/etc.

It feels like it's shield-only, but it's difficult for me to tell whether it's a factor for all types of blocking and the shield playstyle makes it more noticeable, or if it just doesn't affect manual blocking at all that way.

We've all seen the pro blockers pull off blocks in two different directions within milliseconds of each other, so it doesn't appear to affect weapon blocks.
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: Thryn on May 02, 2014, 03:47:58 pm
It's easy to say "just wait for the shield block sound before you release block", but remember that holding RMB slows you down, making your more susceptible to kicks. Weapon blockers have the luxury of being able to raise/drop their blocks as frequently as they want without penalty, so they can have full mobility while their opponent is spamming feints at them. Shielders can't do anything during their opponent's attack phase but face directly at them holding RMB; it's just dull and predictable.

When I'm blocking, I try to strafe and backpedal. If I'm hit, I generally "ride the hit", and it does less damage to me. This also gets me out of kick range for the most part. Footwork is what you can use to dodge kicks. "I'm to slow to dodge kicks" won't work, because if you are maneuvering properly, you won't get hit. cRPG kicks themselves though are annoying with their magical force field range.

I think what you may be alluding to is that some of the odd mechanics (the shield delay) force you to change your style. I know that feels, brah. It sucks, but there isn't much we can do besides hope that the game just keeps changing for the better. Something I love is that every person has a different fighting style. If all shielders were forced to play ultra-conservatively, the game would become extremely redundant.

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Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 02, 2014, 03:49:48 pm
That's not a bug, that's called blocking not being instant, and a 100 "speed" shield blocks significantly slower than a 100 speed weapon. This is another reason why shields don't provide such "clear" advantages as people seem to believe. If you're a skilled player, you have absolutely no reason to be using a shield in a 1v1, unless you're looking for a handicap.

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I can block "instantly" with my 100 speed shield (seems the same speed to raise a block as manual blocking).  But if I lower it, and then try to re-raise it, it doesn't block "instantly".  There is a slight delay that you don't see if you hadn't just dropped your block. 

I'm not saying it's a bug or complaining.  I know about it, but it still gets me.  I think there should probably be more of a delay in a shield being able to block an attack.  But then again, I think manual blocking should have some delay as well. 

I also agree with sparv, the knightly kite shield shouldn't be 5 shield skill.  It seems like a completely arbitrary change, and the only way to justify it, is to bump up all the 4 shield skill shields to 5 difficulty (which would be a dick move). 
Title: Re: Knightly Kite Shield
Post by: rustyspoon on May 04, 2014, 06:38:25 pm
I say we raise the reqs for the Knightly Kite to 7 shield skill to stop the scrubs from using it. Only the manliest of men (like myself) can use it then.

It's a great shield, good protection for how light it is. It's a fast skirmisher's or cav shield. Does what it's supposed to do incredibly well.