cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: spiritus on April 25, 2014, 11:34:08 am

Title: Agi
Post by: spiritus on April 25, 2014, 11:34:08 am
As we all know agi builds got a buff but from as far as i know it really wasnt that big just 10-20 wpf, tho it seems like many have blown this up to be that agi builds are incredibly strong and op! One change i would love just like wpf every new level you gain more from the last. Exponential growth i believe it would be called. Example lets say u can 5 speed per level of athletics every level past one you would keep taking 10 percent of the whole and adding it to get a new sum. level 1 5 level 2 11 level 3 17.6 level 4 24.86 etc i quickly did this in my head and im tired as fuk but as u can see at lvl 4 for example you would have 97.2 percent of a free level of athletics im super fucking tired so i most likly fucked something up within this run on sentence paragraph thing so fuk all i love u goodnight.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: korppis on April 25, 2014, 11:46:55 am
Personally I hate exponential growth... it would make high levels even more powerfull, and life so much harder for lower levels.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 11:55:10 am
Agility, compared to Srength is seriously OP.

But nothing won`t change, because the majority of "good"  :lol: players are agility whores, thus lobbying for it to stay strong.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: vipere on April 25, 2014, 12:22:25 pm
is 18/24 an agi build ? or a balanced one ?
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Strudog on April 25, 2014, 12:35:22 pm
is 18/24 an agi build ? or a balanced one ?

For me its Agi, 18/21or 21/18 are balanced anything above or below is either STR or AGI. Ive never liked agi builds, always found them a little easy, STR builds are more testing for me
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Brrrak on April 25, 2014, 03:26:09 pm
For me its Agi, 18/21or 21/18 are balanced anything above or below is either STR or AGI. Ive never liked agi builds, always found them a little easy, STR builds are more testing for me

I have not played strength for a long enough period to really get used to it, but I've tended to have an easier time when I stack IF and PS over ATH and WM.

But I love zipping around like a little asshat.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Kirman on April 25, 2014, 03:37:56 pm
I really wonder what would happen if they nerf backwards speed  :lol:


Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 03:39:52 pm
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the lady with the pink dress is the prettiest of them all!!!

who is she?  :lol:
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Elmetiacos on April 25, 2014, 04:07:59 pm
Agility, compared to Srength is seriously OP.

But nothing won`t change, because the majority of "good"  :lol: players are agility whores, thus lobbying for it to stay strong.
There's still an argument for Strength. We like to think that if we get lots of kills that's down to our superior skill at arms but much of the time it isn't: we kill an enemy by hitting him from behind when he's being ganked. Equally we die an awful lot of the time because we get ganked by enemies and can't do anything about it. In these cases, skill doesn't matter. Strength does on the other hand, because it lets you have nastier weapons with more PS, so making it more likely that your blow will kill an unfortunate gankee and it improves your health and allows you to put more into IF so that when you get into trouble you might survive long enough to escape or be rescued.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Herezy92 on April 25, 2014, 04:11:11 pm
Agi builds are like the "Dark side of the force"
Easy way to become strong & "powerfull" (but care about pewpew   :arrow: death isn't far)

And so, it's seems that the devs fell to the dark side...
(welcome  :twisted: )

EDIT: And yes, 18/24 is an agi build.

FrenchKiss
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 04:18:10 pm
There's still an argument for Strength. We like to think that if we get lots of kills that's down to our superior skill at arms but much of the time it isn't: we kill an enemy by hitting him from behind when he's being ganked. Equally we die an awful lot of the time because we get ganked by enemies and can't do anything about it. In these cases, skill doesn't matter. Strength does on the other hand, because it lets you have nastier weapons with more PS, so making it more likely that your blow will kill an unfortunate gankee and it improves your health and allows you to put more into IF so that when you get into trouble you might survive long enough to escape or be rescued.

Yes, but on the other hand, a player with 8 athletics and basic footwork skill, can easily avoid being ganked.

Speed > Raw strength
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Elmetiacos on April 25, 2014, 04:27:29 pm
Yes, but on the other hand, a player with 8 athletics and basic footwork skill, can easily avoid being ganked.

Speed > Raw strength
Nobody deliberately gets ganked; you can't run away from what you don't see coming.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Strudog on April 25, 2014, 04:34:57 pm
Nobody deliberately gets ganked; you can't run away from what you don't see coming.

if you ever find yourself being ganked as an agi character you are playing it all wrong, Agi is for going into battles of your choice, STR does not have that kind flexibility, once you've committed as STR, that is it.

But i guess its from personal experience, but definitely agi polearm is way easier than STR pole arm
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Tojo on April 25, 2014, 04:46:10 pm
Yea I would say that the ability to "nope the fuck out" of a fight has a pretty large advantage as agility. The only classes that can chase down a 15/27 or 18/24 are cavalry, or just by having a ranged weapon.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: 722_ on April 25, 2014, 06:47:16 pm
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the lady with the pink dress is the prettiest of them all!!!

who is she?  :lol:

That's pano.... Oh right
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: SMEGMAR on April 25, 2014, 07:00:26 pm
I think the consequential nerf to strength from the agi buff would have been enough.
But NOOOOOOOO they just had to shit on the WPP of solid builds like 24/15, etc.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Smoothrich on April 25, 2014, 07:24:36 pm
I think the consequential nerf to strength from the agi buff would have been enough.
But NOOOOOOOO they just had to shit on the WPP of solid builds like 24/15, etc.

I hybrid 136 WPF in 2hand and 107 in polearms with 6 WM, you can do basically the same with 5 WM. Pure build would have 150+ WPF in either WM level. This is actually better then it used to be for those AGI levels by a little bit, if I remember. Don't really see the problem, unless you are not investing in Weapon Master, which was the point of the change.

Even still you only need 3 WM to be effective in a single class, instead of not needing any (which was dumb and abused.)
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 07:26:15 pm
Strength has been neglected by devs, causing the mod to be a no skill spam fest, IMO in order to balance things a bit, Strength as a skill needs a buff.

Power Strike should give +10% damage instead of 8%
Armour difficulty needs to be increased, thus rewarding people who choose STR over agility

It`s really a pain in the ass seeing all those longsword spammers, with 15/27 build to be able to dance, spam AND be tanky because of plate armour.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Strudog on April 25, 2014, 07:29:49 pm
Strength has been neglected by devs, causing the mod to be a no skill spam fest, IMO in order to balance things a bit, Strength as a skill needs a buff.

Power Strike should give +10% damage instead of 8%
Armour difficulty needs to be increased, thus rewarding people who choose STR over agility

It`s really a pain in the ass seeing all those longsword spammers, with 15/27 build to be able to dance, spam AND be tanky because of plate armour.

you will be surprised that most longsword spammer in EU have 27/15 builds
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 07:39:18 pm
Nerfing longsword is a must.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Kirman on April 25, 2014, 07:58:20 pm
I really wonder what would happen if they nerf backwards speed  :lol:

I still defend the nerf of backwards speed instead of a specific weapon.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: San on April 25, 2014, 08:06:20 pm
In the past at level 34, 8WM still gave you 175wpf and 9WM gave you 183wpf. Agi was still great back then, but the bonus from WM was poor.

I think a problem that's larger than preventing agi builds access to the highest end armour is the fact that you can easily get 50-60+ armour off of equipment that should be very light. My 15 strength build uses what I consider light armour with mail mittens and a druzhina mail shirt, and even just that amounts to 50 armour total. I find that more broken than being able to wear coat of plates or heraldic transitional (even though that's a part of the problem, too). Increasing armour difficulty is a small part of multiple changes that should be done. Increasing armour difficulties by itself isn't really going to do anything except force people to switch to the lighter equally viable equipment.

Armour would be in a nice spot if gloves didn't give so much; they should increase attack power instead. Armour should scale to 27-30 strength, even though I know many will disagree. I may have the minority opinion on this next part, too, but I think IF should scale better while penalizing 0IF (could also work indirectly with the lowering of armour). Strength only has PS and partially IF that can even be ignored, while agi has both WM and athletics (which both also help increase damage) at full utility. WM used to be just as bad as IF, but now IF has some catching up to do.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: SP1N on April 25, 2014, 08:29:28 pm
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San, I can't express how happy I am to see this post. I have yet to hear a bad idea from you and I hope this in particular is heard and works its way into the game.

I have a loomed mail shirt with fur and leather gloves and I get 46 body armor from gear that's only 8.7 weight and costs less to repair than a "Sword". I agree the higher tier armors should be scaled up to 27, if not 30, strength to wear (So a Light Kuyak would be around a 15-18 Strength requirement) but the armors also need to be scaled down in numbers. Gloves are a different story, and though I believe they give WAY too much body armor I'm not sure what should be done other than scaling those down as well.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 08:34:13 pm
Also it is worthy of mentioning, that a buff to STR combined with a nerf to armours/gloves, will make the  mod A) Faster and B) More challenging because there won`t be rooms for a second mistake.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Gurnisson on April 25, 2014, 08:35:59 pm
Buff strength, what a plan. It's not like that strength was brutally overpowered compared to agility before. Oh wait.. Now they're fairly even at least, they both excel in different roles and with different types of gear.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Johammeth on April 25, 2014, 08:40:45 pm
Dissenting opinion:
The large reason for cRPG's current speedy-state is that the "X got buffed so Y is trash" mentality combined with a free respec sent the community into an agility tailspin.

STR isn't nearly as bad as everyone says; We just need more buff dudes with mauls to knock some sense into us.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 08:42:02 pm
Buff strength, what a plan. It's not like that strength was brutally overpowered compared to agility before. Oh wait.. Now they're fairly even at least, they both excel in different roles and with different types of gear.

STR was never overpowered, sure there were some players out there who were great with their STR builds (Butan, Vex etc etc), but in overall, STR was never above Agility.

They both excel in different roles? Yeah right, the agility builds are the heroes of the battlefield, while the 0WPF  ALMOST EXTINCT "tanks", are just there for us to farm easy valour.


C-rpg, the paradise of spam and s keying...pff
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Tojo on April 25, 2014, 08:55:33 pm
I think the different play styles between NA and EU are also a factor. I read a lot of threads where a particular region is complaining about the majority of their players using a certain weapon.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Gurnisson on April 25, 2014, 09:37:31 pm
STR was never overpowered, sure there were some players out there who were great with their STR builds (Butan, Vex etc etc), but in overall, STR was never above Agility.

They both excel in different roles? Yeah right, the agility builds are the heroes of the battlefield, while the 0WPF  ALMOST EXTINCT "tanks", are just there for us to farm easy valour.

<-- Previously a 30/9 and 27/12 polearmer. Before the change to WM, strength builds were ridiculously strong, a lot better than agility builds. You don't have to go XX/3, you know, since I see you complaining about 0 wpf. Everything from 12 to 18 agi with the rest in strength is still great infantry builds. Much like you need at least 12 strength to be relatively useful as an agiwhore as well.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 09:41:33 pm
<-- Previously a 30/9 and 27/12 polearmer. Before the change to WM, strength builds were ridiculously strong, a lot better than agility builds. You don't have to go XX/3, you know, since I see you complaining about 0 wpf. Everything from 12 to 18 agi with the rest in strength is still great infantry builds. Much like you need at least 12 strength to be relatively useful as an agiwhore as well.


Do you remember rondel dagger my old friends before the nerf?

Imagine a full STR build with a rondel dagger  :wink:
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Jarl_Onurb on April 25, 2014, 09:49:43 pm
As you all might know, armor weight reduces WPF by percentage ( more precentaje while heavier the armor) so heavy armor does a bigger WPF reduction on AGI character than in a STR character. But the problem is that the WPF reduction depends only in armor weight, so a 16.5 weight armor will reduce the same percentage in both tipe of characters; I think that the WPF reduction should depend not only in the armor weight but also in the character strength, because if you are stronger then it should be easier for you to use the armor.

Quote
Armor weight
Armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)
Effective armor weight = 2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 4*hand armor weight - 10
(Source: WaltF4, updated 31.7.2012 based on the new formula)

This means that every point of armor weight with helmet weight multiplied by 2 and glove weight multiplied by 4  over 10 reduces your wpf by 1%. Or the same put other way, any effective armor weight from the above equation reduces your wpf 1% per 1 point.

Effective WPF
There are three possible factors reducing your wpf from what is listed on the character sheet. First reduce your wpf by 13 for each point of power throw, then reduce your wpf by 14 for each point of power draw and then remove 1% of remaining wpf for each point of effective weight. For effective weight, see armor weight chapter above.

The same mathematically:
(wpf - 13*pt - 14*pd) * (1 - effective weight / 100)
http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/

I think that is the actual Effective WPF formula.


Sorry if i didn't expressed myself properly, english is not my main language.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 25, 2014, 10:04:47 pm
But the problem is that the WPF reduction depends only in armor weight, so a 16.5 weight armor will reduce the same percentage in both tipe of characters; I think that the WPF reduction should depend not only in the armor weight but also in the character strength, because if you are stronger then it should be easier for you to use the armor.

You got it all wrong, everything has WPF penalties, body armour x1, gloves x4, leg and head armour x2. Meaning that.  even though your gloves may weight 1kg, the penalty at your WPF will count as if you were wearing 4kg gloves, same goes for head armour and leg armour.


As you all might know, armor weight reduces WPF by percentage ( more precentaje while heavier the armor) so heavy armor does a bigger WPF reduction on AGI character than in a STR character.

 But still, an agility based build will still have a lot more WPF, COMBINED with the heavy armour, meaning : TANKY + SWING EFFECTIVE (Speed bonus) , while on the other hand a STR build will only deal RAW DAMAGE due to the lack of WPF and ATH, thus losing the speed bonus, which for a stupid reason the damage is higher than the actual raw damage   :lol:
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Akynos on April 25, 2014, 11:22:40 pm
Playing with a full str STF right now, I have to say that agi-builds are harder than before, but I wouldn't say OP, at least not in duels. Its harder to outplay your oponent, but you make up in survivability and in punishing power.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: justme on April 25, 2014, 11:38:16 pm
what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Akynos on April 25, 2014, 11:41:09 pm
what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str

True, with speed bonus and increased WPF agiwhores deal a truckload of damage
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Jarl_Onurb on April 25, 2014, 11:44:10 pm
You got it all wrong, everything has WPF penalties, body armour x1, gloves x4, leg and head armour x2. Meaning that.  even though your gloves may weight 1kg, the penalty at your WPF will count as if you were wearing 4kg gloves, same goes for head armour and leg armour.
When I said armor I was refering to every tipe of armor(chest,hands,head,legs).

But still, an agility based build will still have a lot more WPF, COMBINED with the heavy armour, meaning : TANKY + SWING EFFECTIVE (Speed bonus) , while on the other hand a STR build will only deal RAW DAMAGE due to the lack of WPF and ATH, thus losing the speed bonus, which for a stupid reason the damage is higher than the actual raw damage   :lol:
And that is how it should work, an AGI character should always swing faster than an STR character(unless the STR has an cimitar and the AGI a maul or something like that).

The main idea that I wanted to propose is to make the WPF percentage reduction lower while more STR.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Jona on April 26, 2014, 12:14:35 am
what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str

Imo the only agi whores that deal a truckload of damage are the  ones carrying pointy sticks around. Speed bonus on stabs really needs to be looked at... in all honestly swing speed bonus doesn't seem that out of hand at all. Some whimpy guy with only 4 PS shouldn't be able to 2-hit me (6 IF, fully loomed kuyak my old friend) with a shortened spear or something similar.

Also, something that is always overlooked in these kind of threads is that agi is a double edged sword. You might be able to run real fast and get speed bonus behind your swings to do good damage, but should you mess up and your enemy hits you first, well all that speed bonus is now used against your already frail body. At least with strength you get higher attack power without the risk of it being used against you.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Panos_ on April 26, 2014, 07:30:51 am
And that is how it should work, an AGI character should always swing faster than an STR character(unless the STR has an cimitar and the AGI a maul or something like that).

what surprise me is huge damage from agi builds, always thought  it was reserved for str

True, with speed bonus and increased WPF agiwhores deal a truckload of damage

This is my current problem with the mod, WHY THE FUCK, a player with a longsword a plate armour and an agility based build, can take half my HP with a swing, while I with a 48 cut weapon, will need 4 hits to put him down?

Things are pretty simple, I`m not asking for anything crazy, IF YOU WANT TO BE FAST, THEN BE, BUT BE A WEAKLING, NOT A FUCKING TANK.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: spiritus on April 26, 2014, 05:45:38 pm
Agility, compared to Srength is seriously OP.

But nothing won`t change, because the majority of "good"  :lol: players are agility whores, thus lobbying for it to stay strong.
I dunno man being able to 1-2 shot a agi build while they need 4-6 plus! Im not saying agi isnt strong but for fuk sake str isnt weak!
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: phnxhdsn on April 27, 2014, 02:45:41 am
21/21 MASTER RACE
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: Thranduil on April 27, 2014, 04:14:41 am
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I fully support the idea of scaling armor requirements. In fact, with the current wpf formula, I think it's something that needs to be done. Maybe not quite to where San was thinking. 21 - 24 for the heaviest of armors probably. This would make STR a more viable build, and would probably balance out the variety of builds in general. You'd still have AGI builds, but you'd see more STR and balanced builds again.
Title: Re: Agi
Post by: San on April 27, 2014, 05:50:54 am
Trying to draft out some ideas that essentially buffs heavy and light armor looms: giving light armor less weight at +3 and heavy armor even more armor, but with additional weight (still better weight:armor ratio than right now). This would apply for helmets/boots, too. On the flipside, light-medium gloves get adjusted in a similar way to armor, but toned down- heavy gloves giving +5 armor with a weight penalty, while the lighter gloves become lighter in weight/weightless in some cases with a slight armor boost, and medium gloves somewhere in-between.

Agree with your idea of difficulty, Thranduil. I was just throwing out a number when thinking of milanese/gothic plate with bevor.

Even with the above idea, I need to refine it and make sure it makes sense/doesn't feel too punishing so that I could convince others it could work. Not entirely what I wish for gloves, but it will at least be a step forward imo instead of doing nothing.