cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on April 01, 2014, 02:00:17 pm
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(at mw level, 36 cut)
In current c-rpg it is so, that some of the longest 1h swords are also the ones with most cut damage.
This is something 1handed cav has been benefiting from 4 years. With a headstrike and good speed they can one shot tincans, nvm everybody else, and because of animations have extreme range. This weapon is one of the main reasons 1h cav is so effective. Its length allows them to hit targets with great power in all directions around a big horse.
I think the longest 1h should not also be the one with most cut. There should be a rebalance of the long 1handers, so if you want cut, you need a shorter weapon. If you want length, you have to sacrifice cut.
It even makes sense from realism perspective. A cav sword is meant to use the inertia of the rider, not primarily to be a well balanced sword able to deal great cut damage on foot. It is probably heavier and more unwieldy than a normal 1handed sword when used on foot. It would be harder to deal max damage with such a sword on foot, than it would be using a sword designed for infantry use.
Added poll.
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Recommended stats?
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However it's a good point about ACS and 1h cav in general, but I think a better way to nerf them would be nerfing the animation sweetspots.
Right now you can hit your enemy even when you hit too late or too early, with bad angles etc
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Perhaps, if that is realistic and someone will do it. Then yes.
All of the above weapons are not suitable for cav use though. The only one I've seen used with some success is the military cleaver. The problem lies not with great cut, the problem is when great cut converges with length and a horse.
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It's already long which means it glances a lot in melee, slow, expensive and has an awful stab. Also why are you still an admin?
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Have seen little to no infantryplayers use it which makes me belive it doesnt really do well outside its cavalrycomfortzone, which I think means it is good at where it is atm.
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Wouldnt the substantial weight of a cavalry sword inflict more damage then a lighter infantry sword? why wouldnt it cause more damage when swung from horseback. I think if anything it doesnt need a reduction in its power, but increased weight and a reduction in speed, nerfing its speed makes it shit while on foot while still useable on horseback.
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Isn't this how all weapons are balanced? Long, heavier weapons hit harder, but are slower. Likely the issue is just in perception due to the fact that the range in stats on 1hers is much lower than other types. Non integer based speed and damage values would be nice, but that's limited by the module system, and therefore won't change.
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The long 1h are slow as hell, so they are really only subperb as cav weapons imho.
They are mediocre infantry weapons, and I think they are balanced this way.
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My screenshot was mostly adressing to this point:
I think the longest 1h should not also be the one with most cut. There should be a rebalance of the long 1handers, so if you want cut, you need a shorter weapon. If you want length, you have to sacrifice cut.
Just to show the longest swords are not having the best damage and that you already have to choose a shorter weapon if you want to do more damage.
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I think Thomek is saying he wants longer picks and hammers.
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The ACS is horrible once used on the ground or when stabbing. It's an extremely specialised weapon and is the best at what it does but junk at everything else. The only problem with 1h cav is that the ACS is by far the least shitty option, and the class therefore lacks variety.
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The ACS is horrible once used on the ground or when stabbing. It's an extremely specialised weapon and is the best at what it does but junk at everything else. The only problem with 1h cav is that the ACS is by far the least shitty option, and the class therefore lacks variety.
I think the Knightly Arming Sword and Nordic Champ Sword are better options overall, really.
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I think the Knightly Arming Sword and Nordic Champ Sword are better options overall, really.
I liked Paramerion the most! Stabs can be useful for dealing with other cav, and it's also got very good cut and length.
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i have yet to see an arabian cav sword 1 hit a tin can.
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Then you haven't seen much. Perhaps not the most extreme builds with loomed top end head armor, but with speedbonus and head hits (easiest to do from a horse..) these things do insane damage. Someone else calculate it.
I've are also effective in melee, the range takes a lot of players by surprise.
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i have yet to see an arabian cav sword 1 hit a tin can.
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Indeed, 1h cav lacks variety. The ACS is almost exclusively used by all players playing this class. 1h infantry has nice variety, you constantly see everybody wielding different blades. But the cav doesnt. Even the ones somewhat RPing Templars or whatever euroknight mainstreamshite, use it.
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Then you haven't seen much. Perhaps not the most extreme builds with loomed top end head armor, but with speedbonus and head hits (easiest to do from a horse..) these things do insane damage. Someone else calculate it.
A katana held swing on foot with the usual agi induced speed bonus is going to do only slightly less damage than an ACS held swing with typical cav speed bonus on a clean hit. If the ACS hits while bumping (which is just about always unless you catch someone afk which allows you to ride at the optimal distance without risk), the damage gets a huge malus on top of the reduced speed bonus (source : Paul in IRC a long time ago and that doesn't seem to have been changed). Hence the katana probably going to do more than a bumpslash, not counting bump damage. Do you feel you often oneshot stuff with katana held swings ?
I've are also effective in melee, the range takes a lot of players by surprise.
That's not an argument. Bad or underused weapons (which the ACS is, on foot) are always underestimated and therefore surprising.
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Thomek brings up a good question though. Why is it the longest 1h swords that does the most cut damage?
Give all <100 length 1hs 34+ cut.
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Then you haven't seen much. Perhaps not the most extreme builds with loomed top end head armor, but with speedbonus and head hits (easiest to do from a horse..) these things do insane damage. Someone else calculate it.
I've are also effective in melee, the range takes a lot of players by surprise.
So what you're saying is attacks to the head should do less damage and people should loom head armor more?
Thomek brings up a good question though. Why is it the longest 1h swords that does the most cut damage?
Give all <100 length 1hs 34+ cut.
According to tydeus, is a 1her is more expensive than another, it can be better in every regard.
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According to tydeus, is a 1her is more expensive than another, it can be better in every regard.
That's putting it a bit too simple. It's true that due to the vast number of 1h weapons that we have, they're balanced slightly differently than other weapons.
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A katana held swing on foot with the usual agi induced speed bonus is going to do only slightly less damage than an ACS held swing with typical cav speed bonus on a clean hit. If the ACS hits while bumping (which is just about always unless you catch someone afk which allows you to ride at the optimal distance without risk), the damage gets a huge malus on top of the reduced speed bonus (source : Paul in IRC a long time ago and that doesn't seem to have been changed). Hence the katana probably going to do more than a bumpslash, not counting bump damage. Do you feel you often oneshot stuff with katana held swings ?
What katana has to do with anything. It's a short 2 handed weapon used with completely different risks and rewards than cav with an ACS.
Sure, if I could bumpslash people with my katana, I wouldn't mind a damage penalty.. :P
Anyway, what all this boils down to is 1h cav doing vastly better than other classes, with less risk than other classes. I think going after the longest 1handers would be a way to deal with that. Perhaps not the best, but should be looked at, together with tweaking horse stats.
The longest weapons having the most cut is certainly a huge, and I think uneccesary advantage, to cav. I think they would still be used and preferred by cav players, even with lower cut. If they want more cut damage, they should use shorter weapons with less range, hence requiring more skill to use, and more risk taken.
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If you reduce ACS cut, then there's the paramerion that was already just as good. You underestimate the utility of 1h stab on horse when needed for frontal clashes especially (and even lol bump stabs). With all of the possible damage multipliers, tweaking the weapon stats isn't really going to solve the problem with the class, which IMO is too much damage from bump slashes and swings without speed bonus / holds still doing too much damage.
If the cut for all of the longer 1h gets reduced, then people will just use 2h weapons + shield, since it would take a huge penalty to make 38-40 cut feel like it's under 30.
If they want more cut damage, they should use shorter weapons with less range, hence requiring more skill to use, and more risk taken.
What shorter weapon could ever possibly compete against the morningstar?
Sure, if I could bumpslash people with my katana, I wouldn't mind a damage penalty.. :P
Do you mean you, or in general? Hate to burst your bubble...
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What katana has to do with anything. It's a short 2 handed weapon used with completely different risks and rewards than cav with an ACS.
Sure, if I could bumpslash people with my katana, I wouldn't mind a damage penalty.. :P
I think you are exaggerating the damage that the ACS does in battle situations. Moreover, damage is much, much more critical for cav than for infantry. When you charge someone on horse, you only get to hit that guy once, you don't have a second chance if you miss or if your attack doesn't kill.
I think you should play cav yourself some more, that would perhaps make you reflect on your suggestions, particularly the nerf maneuver nonsense.
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Isn't this how all weapons are balanced? Long, heavier weapons hit harder, but are slower. Likely the issue is just in perception due to the fact that the range in stats on 1hers is much lower than other types. Non integer based speed and damage values would be nice, but that's limited by the module system, and therefore won't change.
You dont need real numbers to deal with the problem... You can still use integer and manage to get the same effect. Multiply stuff by 10 including hp? (could need new armor soak formula adjusted as well but the logic is there).
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Honestly, I don't think the poliferation of armoured cavalry which you see on EU server was intended with the upkeep system. But it's too late to change something fundamental like that - but the amount of "second chances" you get either with a very maneuverable horse or an armoured one allows for cavalry to do what it does.
Then again, I liked the old crpg best, when you had, after reset, just some rounceys and palfreys riding around but, eg. lancing was normal and so on, HA skill was I think one in 12 agi which was rolled back later and slots didn't exist at the time.
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i have yet to see an arabian cav sword 1 hit a tin can.
it has happened to me once or twice when i had 78 head armor and 12 IF
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If you ask me, it should be 2hers that should be nerfed on horseback. i dont know about EU, but in NA you'll see dozens of people with longswords and morningstars 1 shotting everything, falling off their horse, and having no penalties. have you tried fighting on the ground with a spathion or a cav sword? unless you're a tank (like me), and you can absorb alot of damage, its worthless. its slow, and easy to dodge. anyone with a good italian sword or a 2h will kick your teeth in.
for the record, i fight with a spathion on foot and... well i often get outspammed, so i have to rely on brute strength. 24/12 helps, but a good spammy weapon spells the end for me.
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If you ask me, it should be 2hers that should be nerfed on horseback. i dont know about EU, but in NA you'll see dozens of people with longswords and morningstars 1 shotting everything, falling off their horse, and having no penalties. have you tried fighting on the ground with a spathion or a cav sword? unless you're a tank (like me), and you can absorb alot of damage, its worthless. its slow, and easy to dodge. anyone with a good italian sword or a 2h will kick your teeth in.
for the record, i fight with a spathion on foot and... well i often get outspammed, so i have to rely on brute strength. 24/12 helps, but a good spammy weapon spells the end for me.
Why don't you carry another weapon for backup when you are dismounted if you don't like your cav weapon. A cheap fast weapon to get you out of a tight spot.
Also your problems are because of your build/playstyle being kind of bad, not because of balance
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Buff the maneuverability of light horses. Poof, no more elephant riders.
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I used to play with an unloomed ACS on my plated charger, and found it to be decent, but by no means devastating like some people are mentioning here. As soon as I got dehorsed i'd be manically pressing g to drop it or switching ver to my trusty MW BSS, which was getting me out of tight spots with its short length...handy when you've just been dehorsed. ACS (especially at +0) is a horrible melee wep, so don't nerf it.
Anyway, then I saw that every single 1h cav just used ACS with maybe only 10% carrying a 2nd sidearm (some had axes and shit), so I traded some other loom for a MW KAS, which I find to be decent on and off the horse.
Also this talk of 1hitting tincans. Its very rare to be able to do that, and is most likely those fake tincans, who only just meet the armors requirement cos so much agi. Real tincans like Butan (or my own main) can survive easily 3-4 bump slashes.
Play a class more before you cry for nerfs, it's embarrassing.
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for the record, i fight with a spathion on foot and...
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euroknight mainstreamshite
Laughed so hard at this :lol:
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It's about them being weapons that are too awesome in the way they are being used. (on horse)
Big damage stacks so nice with bumpslash, speedbonus, and the length so incredibly well with usage from horse. It's one of the main things making 1hcav so good.
Now.. They are STILL good on ground with wpf and very good range.
They should be absolute garbage on ground and good on horse. Now they are awesome on horse, and decent on ground.
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Now.. They are STILL good on ground with wpf and very good range.
They should be absolute garbage on ground and good on horse. Now they are awesome on horse, and decent on ground.
None of the above supported by facts.
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when someone use 1h weapon from horesback he cant use footwork to add power in to the swing
just lower dmg and meak dmg depend more on speed
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when someone use 1h weapon from horesback he cant use footwork to add power in to the swing
just lower dmg and meak dmg depend more on speed
:D Except using the horse footwork to add power in the swing..
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I also hate getting 1hit by 1h cav but what should i expect ? A guy coming at me, galloping his horse with his huge sword, i shouldn't survive that hit anyway so i think they are fine.
What bugs me is Elite Scimitar should be the main cav sword, it's used between 14-19 centuries (It was a footman weapon but with increase of armor technology it lost it's effectiveness on foot and became primary cav sword.) and after Napoleon's Egypt conquest, western european riders adept this sword and use as their main cavalry sword aswell.
I mean all those different nations used elite scimitar on horse not long,wide and broad lolswords. I dunno why but these master tactician and real experts of warfare couldn't be wrong by choosing curved sword over broad swords on horse.
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I also hate getting 1hit by 1h cav but what should i expect ? A guy coming at me, galloping his horse with his huge sword, i shouldn't survive that hit anyway so i think they are fine.
What bugs me is Elite Scimitar should be the main cav sword, it's used between 14-19 centuries (It was a footman weapon but with increase of armor technology it lost it's effectiveness on foot and became primary cav sword.) and after Napoleon's Egypt conquest, western european riders adept this sword and use as their main cavalry sword aswell.
I mean all those different nations used elite scimitar on horse not long,wide and broad lolswords. I dunno why but these master tactician and real experts of warfare couldn't be wrong by choosing curved sword over broad swords on horse.
Late cavalry swords were very long, thick and very heavy. In fact so heavy they were more maces than swords really.