cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Thomek on March 28, 2014, 02:29:43 am
Title: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Thomek on March 28, 2014, 02:29:43 am
Well here we go again :)
Since new armor mechanics were introduced, the near useless stab has passed into total uselessness.
It's so risky trying a stab that it's simply not worth it. Therefore I ask for a small buff to stab, from 18 to say 20 pierce. It would still be a weaker stab than all the other 2 handed swords, and 90% of the 1 handed swords, so I don't think it would suddenly make it more powerful and popular. (So I don't think the "keep katana numbers down" argument holds with such a small change)
The only people who actually use the katana use it for style reasons, and I don't think anyone else would suddenly take a liking to it.
That's really all. At this point in the history of the mod this is just fair I think.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Molly on March 28, 2014, 08:31:11 am
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Aksei on March 28, 2014, 08:46:28 am
if i compare it to the nearby swords it seems fair
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Templar_Steevee on March 28, 2014, 10:15:17 am
2 is too much, add 1 :twisted:
It's funny to see buff katana posts again :mrgreen:
Can someone make a nerf ballance ranged thread again, it's funny to read it. I can't do it myself because i'm an archer 8-)
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Latvian on March 28, 2014, 10:19:32 am
katana stab is not useless , being strenghtless agiwhore is.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: korppis on March 28, 2014, 11:04:20 am
I don't mind the shitty stab as much as katana having so poor length/weight/speed ratio compared to BS/HBS/LS (not saying that katana needs a buff, but that those other swords were definitely overbuffed before). But yeah, even with 2 more stab all those other swords would still be more appealing.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Kafein on March 28, 2014, 04:59:03 pm
For a moment I assumed this is a joke thread but hey it's Thomek after all.
Due to the 2h stab animations, you can use your full range and do full damage with a katana. Try stabbing at range with a 1h and you'll get fucked no matter how much damage your weapon is supposed to do.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Torben on March 28, 2014, 05:07:52 pm
For a moment I assumed this is a joke thread but hey it's Thomek after all.
Due to the 2h stab animations, you can use your full range and do full damage with a katana. Try stabbing at range with a 1h and you'll get fucked no matter how much damage your weapon is supposed to do.
rly? i have found the 1h stabs to be very useful lately...
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Gurnisson on March 28, 2014, 05:09:41 pm
Due to the 2h stab animations, you can use your full range and do full damage with a katana. Try stabbing at range with a 1h and you'll get fucked no matter how much damage your weapon is supposed to do.
No
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Kafein on March 28, 2014, 05:12:21 pm
rly? i have found the 1h stabs to be very useful lately...
It's still better than before the buff, as in, better than unusable. However, the reduction in sweetspots was quite a drastic change. It reduced the range of the 1h stabs by a sizable margin, and once again the animation does not correspond to what you can actually do with it. I'm seriously considering going back to the scimitar.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on March 28, 2014, 05:19:12 pm
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Phew on March 28, 2014, 05:30:43 pm
A +3 Katana thrust does about half as much damage as the swings against your typical melee player (~60 armor). That seems pretty reasonable, considering the thrusts have nearly twice the reach of swings.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Thomek on March 28, 2014, 06:19:19 pm
The problem is really the constant glancing. And I know how to stab.. :P
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Paul on March 28, 2014, 08:32:09 pm
Because of the poor average quality of iron sand based steel and the inferior craftmanship of Japanese weaponsmiths in the 13th century, such a katana would shatter easily when thrusted with full force towards superior European metal armour. We have no weapon breaking system so we simply assume that the unfortunate wretch that has to fight with a katana knows that and thus stabs very carefully with light to moderate force. Thats why the thrust base damage is that low.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Thomek on March 28, 2014, 08:38:27 pm
Because of the poor average quality of iron sand based steel and the inferior craftmanship of Japanese weaponsmiths in the 13th century, such a katana would shatter easily when thrusted with full force towards superior European metal armour. We have no weapon breaking system so we simply assume that the unfortunate wretch that has to fight with a katana knows that and thus stabs very carefully with light to moderate force. Thats why the thrust base damage is that low.
lol :) well heres another argument:
:twisted:
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 28, 2014, 08:42:48 pm
Well that katana isnt made in the 13th century so its not a fair comparison.
Which would more than likely make it a modern day factory replica. If anything, that's worse than a 13th century folded, forged, battle ready/intended sword.
About the kusari katabira (Kusari means chain, this armor is a form of chainmail) , they were worn in their own right, I have seen an early Meiji period picture showing a kiba musha (a mounted, and thus high ranking samurai) wear such an armor while charging imperial troops in uniform. When faced with powerfull precision weapons like modern rifles, old style plate armor, no matter how thick, became obsolete, and so a light mail jacket and mail hood (kusari zukin) would do well enough against the occasional sword attack... unless they thrusted that is, and they often did thrust with swords, especially when faced with an armored opponent, as katana are extremely efficient when used this way. Interestingly, right before the end of the Edo period there were quite a few samurai who were skilled in the use of modern rifles, so you can understand the popularity of light flexible armor at the time, because the heavier rigid plate armors had become nearly useless.
From this thread http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php?topic=2309.0 (http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php?topic=2309.0)
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Teeth on April 09, 2014, 11:07:08 pm
There is no reason whatsoever to use the katana over the longsword currently, so a stab damage raise seems fair. Or a longsword nerf.
There is no reason whatsoever to use the katana over the longsword currently, so a stab damage raise seems fair. Or a longsword nerf. I can only assume you haven't played since Tydeus touched the 1h stab. If you have you are a bigger 1h lobbyist than Thomek is a katana lobbyist.
I can only presume you haven't played since Tydeus nerfed it again.
Thrust sweetspots are found by when in the release animation you have hit your enemy, as a percent of the total duration. So if you hit on frame 7 of an animation that has 14 frames, that's 50% through the animation. which would result in 100% damage. Also, keep in mind this is the same for all thrusts, regardless of weapon type.
You might say "this impacts all stabs equally". My answer would be : "no". Because 1h trust animations are the shortest, mainly because the starting point is already quite far away, this change made the minimum distance for stabbing much higher and the maximum distance much lower, to the point that the optimal window is both slim and unintuitive. 2h thrust animations are superior because they allow using the full reach even after this change. Hence 2h stabs have good reach and are easy to use as you are never penalised with a glance when you hit at maximum range. Polearm thrust animations are superior because they start much closer to the body, hence the minimum effective range is much smaller with polearms than with 1h, oddly enough. Note that this isn't the case with hoplites though, who get better reach instead. While this nerfed all stabs, 1h stabs were the most fragile in the sweetspot department and got hit where it hurts.
Note that my point isn't that balance was perfect between the stab buff and this nerf. But it's definitely worse now. Even if we forget about the whole 1h issue, the problem with these new sweetspots is that as a loomed armor user I can just facehug and spam stab users, they will have a very hard time not bouncing on my armor even though it requires zero effort on my end. To rectify the balance between stabs and swings it would have been much better to buff swings instead.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Gmnotutoo on April 10, 2014, 05:12:29 pm
Just buff its speed so a MW can be 103 again, although I'd prefer the 104 stat from when I first started this mod but I'm not greedy!
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: IR_Kuoin on April 10, 2014, 05:13:07 pm
From 16 - 18 now 18 - 20 please! :D
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Phew on April 10, 2014, 05:53:26 pm
Just buff its speed so a MW can be 103 again, although I'd prefer the 104 stat from when I first started this mod but I'm not greedy!
The Katana is boxed in balance-wise. It can't be 101 speed, because then it's too good compared to the Bastard Sword (BS would lose 3cut to only gain 6cm and 3p, which would be a lousy tradeoff). You can't really increase the cut damage, because 38 is already pretty high for something that fast. Giving it 20p thrust is about the only option on the table.
22p thrust at MW is sufficient; I had that on my +3 Arabian Guard Sword and thought it was more than adequate, and the 1h thrust animation is more glance-prone than the 2h animation at near-maximum reach.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Thomek on April 10, 2014, 06:29:34 pm
Why you even compare it to 1handers. It's a 2 hander lol.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Vengt037 on April 10, 2014, 06:35:16 pm
Fun fact: the correct way of stabbing w/ a katana requires the wielder to turn the blade completely sideways prior to thrusting. The actual animation used, w/ the blade pointed up and to the right, is not entirely accurate.
Proposal: buff the stab by 2 as suggested by OP, but implement shorter, possibly slower, yet more historically accurate stabbing animation, w/ flat of the blade held completely parallel to the ground. This will appease weaboos and non weaboo's alike.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Gmnotutoo on April 10, 2014, 06:35:37 pm
The Katana is boxed in balance-wise. It can't be 101 speed, because then it's too good compared to the Bastard Sword (BS would lose 3cut to only gain 6cm and 3p, which would be a lousy tradeoff). You can't really increase the cut damage, because 38 is already pretty high for something that fast. Giving it 20p thrust is about the only option on the table.
22p thrust at MW is sufficient; I had that on my +3 Arabian Guard Sword and thought it was more than adequate, and the 1h thrust animation is more glance-prone than the 2h animation at near-maximum reach.
I've expressed my opinion many times about this subject, the cut damage needs to be reduced and the speed increased. It's niche should be a fast average hitting weapon. A shorter blade and less weight directly means a faster weapon, so having the BS sword being able to swing faster despite being longer and heavier is silly.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Kafein on April 10, 2014, 07:12:31 pm
Nerf the swing damage by one and give it a 30c thrust. Katanas are for disemboweling peasants.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Thomek on April 10, 2014, 11:36:52 pm
Balancers have expressed too many times that Katanas pay a weaboo tax in performance, presumably to stop too many from using them for performance reasons.
Successfully I'd say. Like I said in the first post, the only reason people use it is for style. What I'm asking for is not a proper balance for it since that will simply not happen.
I'm just asking for a buff to stab that will not bring it even close to better alternatives, but at least dig it up a bit from the hole it is in now. It should still be a fun and reliable weapon, even if it will not compete in the top.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on April 10, 2014, 11:43:01 pm
Balancers have expressed too many times that Katanas pay a weaboo tax in performance, presumably to stop too many from using them for performance reasons.
Successfully I'd say. Like I said in the first post, the only reason people use it is for style. What I'm asking for is not a proper balance for it since that will simply not happen.
I'm just asking for a buff to stab that will not bring it even close to better alternatives, but at least dig it up a bit from the hole it is in now. It should still be a fun and reliable weapon, even if it will not compete in the top.
I've expressed my opinion many times about this subject, the cut damage needs to be reduced and the speed increased. It's niche should be a fast average hitting weapon. A shorter blade and less weight directly means a faster weapon, so having the BS sword being able to swing faster despite being longer and heavier is silly.
Which would take it right back to the way it was before. A cheap spamming weapon. The weapon every xenophobe loved to hate.
They complained about it like they hated it, but really... they loved having that "weeaboo" weapon they could moan about. It meant they could give Japanese themed characters a lot of shit, and laugh them off as a bunch of cheap spammers.
The reduce in speed made it a viable weapon.
Make it a cheap, spamming weapon again? Hell no!
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Joseph Porta on April 12, 2014, 01:29:28 am
Which would take it right back to the way it was before. A cheap spamming weapon. The weapon every xenophobe loved to hate.
They complained about it like they hated it, but really... they loved having that "weeaboo" weapon they could moan about. It meant they could give Japanese themed characters a lot of shit, and laugh them off as a bunch of cheap spammers.
The reduce in speed made it a viable weapon.
Make it a cheap, spamming weapon again? Hell no!
Thats just a spot on choice of words good chap
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Gmnotutoo on April 12, 2014, 02:28:46 am
His message read to me like this: We need to cater to xenophobes instead of properly balancing a weapon because some people can't block.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Thomek on April 12, 2014, 02:50:37 am
I'm not saying I personally like their way of thinking. I've been using the katana for almost 4 years! :)
I'm just stating how it is. It's better to ask for something within their lines of reason, than to ask for something which is (in the balancers eyes) impossible to do.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Ujio on April 12, 2014, 04:02:22 am
Just give it the same stats as the longsword. Problem solved.
Who gives a fuck really? I dont see a reason why we have 100 different swords and shit, makes balancing a nightmare.
I would like to chose weapons purely on style without stats interfering.
That's not possible. Weapon models very much influence balance too. This is the reason the scimitar doesn't have stats in line with other 1h : it's curved. This isn't the reason the katana is inferior to the longsword though. But if the stats were the same including length I'd always use the katana over the longsword, and not for style reasons.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Lemon on April 18, 2014, 03:45:51 am
That's not possible. Weapon models very much influence balance too. This is the reason the scimitar doesn't have stats in line with other 1h : it's curved. This isn't the reason the katana is inferior to the longsword though. But if the stats were the same including length I'd always use the katana over the longsword, and not for style reasons.
Then why would you use it, if it was the EXACT same in EVERYTHING including LENGTH, why would anybody choose one over another? Looks. Soooo... 'not for style reasons'... please.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Bobthehero on April 22, 2014, 10:07:43 am
I disconcur, death to playable wapaneese gear.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Kafein on April 22, 2014, 05:15:25 pm
Then why would you use it, if it was the EXACT same in EVERYTHING including LENGTH, why would anybody choose one over another? Looks. Soooo... 'not for style reasons'... please.
I have trouble answering without feeling like I'm insulting your intelligence. To put it more simply, some weapon models are objectively better than others in combat due to colors that blend in, smaller size (e.g. sword width), and unusual shape. Curved weapons have the advantage over straight ones as their actual reach is less apparent and they make feints harder to track.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Joxer on April 29, 2014, 09:50:12 am
I have trouble answering without feeling like I'm insulting your intelligence. To put it more simply, some weapon models are objectively better than others in combat due to colors that blend in, smaller size (e.g. sword width), and unusual shape. Curved weapons have the advantage over straight ones as their actual reach is less apparent and they make feints harder to track.
Also the hitbox on curved weapons is still straight so it doesn't follow the model at all. That makes for fun "ghost reach" situations.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Khako on June 07, 2014, 11:26:44 pm
Why is there such hate for the katana? I'm korean myself and like to use the eastern equipment available. Immersion is a pretty sore argument for a game well past it's prime.
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Panos_ on June 07, 2014, 11:54:25 pm
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Khako on June 08, 2014, 03:17:14 am
heh yeah, guess it would be tough to take Dear Leader seriously. I didn't think I would use the forums much when I made it all Best Korea. I have noticed that immersion complaints are taken pretty seriously with the forced banner changes recently. Why is immersion taken so seriously? It's out the window as soon as you join a public server, as everyone is in various types of gear from different ages. Sorry for bringing something so offtopic in, but that seems to be the number one complaint aside from something containing the word "gay".
Title: Re: Buff katana stab.
Post by: Paul on June 11, 2014, 04:40:41 pm
Best Korea is still better than Worst Europe so don't mind him.