cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ikarus on March 26, 2014, 02:46:35 pm

Title: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Ikarus on March 26, 2014, 02:46:35 pm
I think cRPG has fulfilled it. Watch it and think about what happened in the past few years in cRPG.
Fascinating.

EDIT:
This explains the existence of mauls and lowers my rage against tubers in COD. This Extra Credits show is neat :o
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Nordwolf on March 26, 2014, 02:57:44 pm
A few years ago player was good if he could block, now it's someone who can counter block effectively etc.
Thanks for a nice vid Ikarus!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Gravoth_iii on March 26, 2014, 03:19:33 pm
So basically nerf archers.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Ikarus on March 26, 2014, 03:23:06 pm
So basically nerf archers.
or cav. no wait, 2h! maul? pikers! xbow. No, horse archers! throwers?
perfect imbalance  :shock:
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: enigmatic_stranger on March 26, 2014, 03:35:56 pm
or cav. no wait, 2h! maul? pikers! xbow. No, horse archers! throwers?
perfect imbalance  :shock:
Every thread is a nerf archers thread.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Thranduil on March 26, 2014, 03:46:46 pm
Nerf perfect imbalance!  :D
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2014, 03:53:44 pm
So basically nerf archers.

This.


The concept explained in this video is quite simple really. It's not "perfect imbalance", it's the development of a statistical rock/paper/scissors metagame (or a more complex variation on that) in which the attractiveness of any given tactic or class or anything of the sort evolves with the popularity of other tactics and classes. It's not without faults though, as this is why we get FOTM stuff.

cRPG is already full of this. You get pikes to counter cav, you get axes to counter shields, you get swords to counter axes, you get maces/picks to counter armor and you get more ranged to counter ranged. Oh wait...
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Lennu on March 26, 2014, 04:33:00 pm
Well, does the crpg have it's own "noob-tube" weapon? IMO it's the arbalest :D

Longass time ago when I started playing crpg I make a crossbow-polearm character. Arbalest + steelbolts + long hafted blade + pike. Good players I'd shoot, bad players I could spam + hold s, and well, pike for the cav. Then came in the" advanced" slot system and I forced to use a fighting axe + arbalest. Now I still could 1shot kill everyone but the most heavily armored players, but in melee I'd get rekt.
So I started to learn how to fight in melee. Sadly, I found melee much more enjoyable than camping in a bush for the whole round, loading my xbow.

I've been thinking about turning one of my characters into a crossbowman again. After all I still could fight in melee with the natural high athletics, and then get some powerful 1slot weapon such as warhammer. But I've turned that idea down: it just isn't as effective as dedicated melee. All I would be doing in the end is watch my team A) getting slaughtered B)slaughtering the enemy team, while I fire a shot every 30 sec, feeling good about myself while not really making a difference in the overall outcome.

Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Bulzur on March 26, 2014, 04:35:32 pm
cRPG is already full of this. You get pikes to counter cav, you get axes to counter shields, you get swords to counter axes, you get maces/picks to counter armor and you get more ranged to counter ranged. Oh wait...

So cavs are not used to counter anything in your example.
Such a weak class should get a buff.


Arbalest is slightly stronger than the "noob-tube" though. Since you can also have melee efficiency behind.

Interesting videos nonetheles, thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Penitent on March 26, 2014, 06:15:42 pm
CRPG is not a perfect rock-paper-scissors though.  Cav can be a counter to ranged, but ranged can also be a counter to cav.  It depends on the situation, equipment, map, and # of each class on the team.

Also, shields counter ranged.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2014, 06:36:14 pm
Also, shields counter ranged.

penitent pls
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Thranduil on March 26, 2014, 06:50:11 pm
....................
Also, shields counter ranged.

Yes....no.....depends....

Average shield is usually wooden. Let's use a decent one (imo a decent one) such as the kite shield.
Now let's choose 3 different ranged. Uhm, let's see. Longbow w/ Tatar arrows, thrower with....well, anything above war darts (with the exceptions of throwing hammer and shuriken), and Arbalest with steel bolts.

Kite shield vs longbow w/ tatar arrows - Shield can take several hits from longbow's tatar arrows. Good protection.
Kite shield vs almost any thrower - Shield is shouting "fuck! fuck! fuck! fuck! fuck!" Shield is broken in a few hits or less. Very temporary protection.
Kite shield vs arbalest w/ steel bolts - Shield may as well not be there. Bolt goes through shield and hits you anyway. Shield never knows it. No protection.

Now let's use a metal covered shield instead. Plate or steel? Plate or steel? ...hhhmmm... I guess I'll use plate since it's more easily available to shielders.

Plate shield vs longbow w/ tatar arrows - Shield can pretty much take a volley. Very good protection.
Plate shield vs almost any thrower - Shield can take some beating. Should take more than 1 throwing lance to break it. Decent, though still temporary, protection.
Plate shield vs arbalest w/ steel bolts - Shield can take several hits from arbalest and not care. Very good protection.

The Kite shield is from experience. The plate shield is from what I've seen. My character usually had 5-6 shield skill.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Macropus on March 26, 2014, 06:50:29 pm
penitent pls
With MotF system, shields do counter ranged.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Penitent on March 26, 2014, 06:55:26 pm
I keep having to post this, because people don't believe me.

I'm 16 gens shielder.  I counter ranged.  They can't hit me.  They flee from my visage.  I grin with glee when their soft under-armored bodies get within striking distance.  Their 10kg quivers leave them no choice but to face my wrath.  The mere sight of the shield I carry makes them look away in frustration and choose another shieldless fool to tamper with.

With a heavy kite shield, I can take at least 4 throwing lances without breaking, or multiple stacks of throwing axes...and then some.

Arbalests do not pierce my heavy kite shield.  Ballistas do, but the shot loses enough force that I easily survive the hit.  I am more than happy to protect teammates who would choose to use my bulwark of godly ranged defense (the lowly shield) as cover while we advance upon the archers, but this rarely happens.

Watch and learn!
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Penitent on March 26, 2014, 07:00:12 pm
With MotF system, shields do counter ranged.

This is true as well.  Maybe you guys are only speaking from a battle perspective because you only play battle.  How sad.

On siege, shields counter ranged all day.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: phnxhdsn on March 26, 2014, 07:13:46 pm
Using their example of champion A is slightly imbalanced until people find out A is weak to B and so on is yeah a great thing in league fo legends but in cRPG for someone to change a single thing to their build they often have to respec and lose half of their precious exp or pay well over 3 million in gold, which is just ridiculous, they need to decrease the cost of free respec dramatically so people can evolve with the meta-game.

I see no drawbacks in making free respecs cheaper, people with lots of characters would miss out, but they could just combine the exp onto one character or something or just leave it and  they can lose a little bit of exp.

Edit: Also Shields and arrows weigh way too much imo, obviously if arrows were less weight it would be too big of a buff but it's just so stupid that they weigh that much and the problem with using a shield against ranged imo is that if there is more than 1 which is quite often nowadays they can easily shoot you from the side because of the slower speed.

AND now all of the heavy 2h's have a pole-arm mode over 120length which means that any 2h with a brain (Okay there's not that many) can stop cav and therefore can counter cav some of the time which is just contributing to the 2h master race :(
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Teeth on March 26, 2014, 07:30:11 pm
Meh, from what I have seen of Extra Credits they try really hard come up with catchy concepts in really just logical and simple game design and then pretending like these concepts exist and are used like they describe them, while I highly doubt they are. Also, the voiceover sound is really annoying.

People complaining about different things is not caused by perfect imbalance and trying to apply the concept to cRPG seems rather futile to me as in essence it refers to extremely simple game design. Extra Credits is just much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: BlueKnight on March 26, 2014, 07:33:04 pm
AND now all of the heavy 2h's have a pole-arm mode over 120length which means that any 2h with a brain (Okay there's not that many) can stop cav and therefore can counter cav some of the time which is just contributing to the 2h master race :(

So true, I've recently been stopping horses while using longsword in polearm mode... it's so gay and retarded, yet so effective... it shouldn't work like this.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Teeth on March 26, 2014, 07:48:38 pm
Plate shield vs longbow w/ tatar arrows - Shield can pretty much take a volley. Very good protection.
Plate shield vs almost any thrower - Shield can take some beating. Should take more than 1 throwing lance to break it. Decent, though still temporary, protection.
Plate shield vs arbalest w/ steel bolts - Shield can take several hits from arbalest and not care. Very good protection.
I really don't think you get what the problems are with shielders countering ranged. It is definitely not that shields aren't tough enough and it is not the 1 vs 1 scenario's. It is the coverage, it is the kiting, it is the crossfiring.

Plate shield vs 2 longbows standing 10 meters from eachother, shield doesn't block a thing as it is small as shit and people shoot past it. Also when you try to attack the one archer you get shot in the face by the other. If one archer runs away you gotta let go of your block or get outrun, making you even more prone to get shot by the other one. They will hold their shot and as soon as you face one, the other shoots you. No protection whatsoever

Okay, perhaps a 2 vs 1 scenario should mean that the shielder has a tough time.

10 plate shield shielders versus 10 longbows in an open field. The only way 10 shielders would counter 10 archers is if they would all chase down one of them and still they would get shot a lot. Archers that get pushed will run away, forcing the shielders to lower their shields or be unable to catch them. However the fear factor and the lack of communication causes the shielders to hesitate or go out one by one. If there are 10 archers versus 10 shielders alive at the end of the round I would bet on the archers. No protection whatsoever

This is what I often see archers in EU do. I have seen for example Steevee and Archpoop clutch rounds, get 10 to 1 k/d's and top kills on many occasion. They go to the edge of the battlefield, nobody dares to touch them. With the lack of communication nobody wants to take the risk of charging them, be it cav or shielder. Then when they near the end of the round they clutch the round because nobody knows what to do against them. Archery is extremely effective in small groups even without any melee support whatsoever and I think that is wrong.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on March 26, 2014, 07:48:51 pm
So true, I've recently been stopping horses while using longsword in polearm mode... it's so gay and retarded, yet so effective... it shouldn't work like this.

Can a flamberge rear horses? It got polearm stab and has 152 length but no secondary mode
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: //saxon on March 26, 2014, 07:53:55 pm
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Johammeth on March 26, 2014, 08:04:38 pm
cRPG is well balanced because people howl in outrage and drench their monitors in nerd-spittle no matter which class kills them.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: phnxhdsn on March 26, 2014, 08:25:02 pm
Can a flamberge rear horses? It got polearm stab and has 152 length but no secondary mode

I'm not sure but i believe it doesn't as it doesn't actually count as a pole.. But you can even out-range lances with the side-swing on that bad-boy so you'll be okay :DD
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: San on March 26, 2014, 08:40:49 pm
Extra credits is pretentious about things, but it's worth it to get another perspective (even if you don't agree with everything, which is often for me).
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Kafein on March 26, 2014, 11:30:11 pm
With a barn (cover from all sides but one), the MotF system and immunity to boredom, shields do counter ranged, as long as your shield can withstand more projectiles than what the enemy has plus what can be found on the floor, which is never.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Ikarus on March 26, 2014, 11:44:11 pm
Sadly, I found melee much more enjoyable than camping in a bush for the whole round, loading my xbow.

I've been thinking about turning one of my characters into a crossbowman again. After all I still could fight in melee with the natural high athletics, and then get some powerful 1slot weapon such as warhammer. But I've turned that idea down: it just isn't as effective as dedicated melee. All I would be doing in the end is watch my team A) getting slaughtered B)slaughtering the enemy team, while I fire a shot every 30 sec, feeling good about myself while not really making a difference in the overall outcome.

Yeeh, reloading takes some time, but for that you don´t have to run up towards enemies.

You don´t have to camp somewhere, you can also play pretty aggressive as an xbow. Also, you can be effective for your team if you dedicate your life in hunting down cav and ranged (and have an eye on your teammates and not hunger too much for kills and peasant shots). Often happens that I manage to shoot an enemy cav who tries to couch/bumpslash some teammate, the shot denies his attack and he simply bumps the guy, or some guys getting buggered by horse archers but can´t get into their reach, then it´s up to you to pew their horses and serve him the enemy on a silver plate. It´s nice for team support, even if you can´t always see it on the scoreboard.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Jarlek on March 27, 2014, 12:38:09 am
Can a flamberge rear horses? It got polearm stab and has 152 length but no secondary mode
It can't since it's not flagged as a polearm. With the secondary mode on 2h swords you actually change the weapon class (2h <=> pole) and the weapon hitting the horse being a polearm is one of the requirements for a horse rear to happen.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Penitent on March 27, 2014, 03:01:28 pm
I really don't think you get what the problems are with shielders countering ranged. It is definitely not that shields aren't tough enough and it is not the 1 vs 1 scenario's. It is the coverage, it is the kiting, it is the crossfiring.

Plate shield vs 2 longbows standing 10 meters from eachother, shield doesn't block a thing as it is small as shit and people shoot past it. Also when you try to attack the one archer you get shot in the face by the other. If one archer runs away you gotta let go of your block or get outrun, making you even more prone to get shot by the other one. They will hold their shot and as soon as you face one, the other shoots you. No protection whatsoever

Okay, perhaps a 2 vs 1 scenario should mean that the shielder has a tough time.

10 plate shield shielders versus 10 longbows in an open field. The only way 10 shielders would counter 10 archers is if they would all chase down one of them and still they would get shot a lot. Archers that get pushed will run away, forcing the shielders to lower their shields or be unable to catch them. However the fear factor and the lack of communication causes the shielders to hesitate or go out one by one. If there are 10 archers versus 10 shielders alive at the end of the round I would bet on the archers. No protection whatsoever

This is what I often see archers in EU do. I have seen for example Steevee and Archpoop clutch rounds, get 10 to 1 k/d's and top kills on many occasion. They go to the edge of the battlefield, nobody dares to touch them. With the lack of communication nobody wants to take the risk of charging them, be it cav or shielder. Then when they near the end of the round they clutch the round because nobody knows what to do against them. Archery is extremely effective in small groups even without any melee support whatsoever and I think that is wrong.

Ugh, you guys.  This never happens.  I rarely ever face 2 archers as a shielder all alone with no other teammates around, and I never play on a team where it's 10 shielders vs 10 archers.  These hypotheticals prove nothing.

A shield never breaks from arrows or bolts.  If they do, stop using a pussy shield and get some shield skill.    You can delay archers until a teamie comes.  You can time their shots somewhat while you advance on one, or line them up so they both can't shoot at you.  You can use a piece of cover to guard a flank and block their arrows until they are out of ammo.  You can try to bum rush them (and get shot a few times) and kill one.  These things don't always work but nothing ALWAYS works.  Still, in these ways, shields counter ranged.

But these scenarios rarely happen.

Usually it is a mix of 2h, cav, shielders, and ranged on the field, or in a castle.  If the 2h charges the enemy ranged, they get shot very much and might die.  If a shielder(s) engage the enemy ranged they get shot much less (or not at all, as the ranged usually just shoot at something they can actually hit), and they usually drive the ranged away so the 2h's can fight in peace, or they die.  In this way, shields counter ranged.

On a siege map, ranged characters do 1 of 2 things.  They are either on the attacking team, and trying to get the flag, or they are defending and shooting at the attackers.  In both scenarios, the shielder just has to raise his shield and he can climb a ladder with impunity, or guard the flag and soak up arrows -- thus negating the ranged to an extent.  In this way shields counter ranged.

When an archer is up on a wall (Attacking or defending, or in battle) sniping people, a 2h usually can't go up and get them...they will get shot while climbing the ladder/stairs.  A shielder can go right up and not even flinch...and take out the sniper.  In this way, shields counter ranged.

Unlike the 10v10 archers against shielders team, these scenarios I list actually happen all the time.

There are many more examples.  Use your imaginations!
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Jarlek on March 27, 2014, 06:49:28 pm
Ugh, you guys.  This never happens.  I rarely ever face 2 archers as a shielder all alone with no other teammates around, and I never play on a team where it's 10 shielders vs 10 archers.  These hypotheticals prove nothing.
You also don't play on EU.

10 or more archers is pretty common over here. For each team. Both on battle and siege.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Penitent on March 27, 2014, 07:13:54 pm
You also don't play on EU.

10 or more archers is pretty common over here. For each team. Both on battle and siege.

Having 10 archers on a team is not rare.  Having ONLY 10 archers and no one else against a team of ONLY 10 shielders is a ridiculous scenario -- and that is the scenario teeth was using to show how shielders do not counter ranged, and the scenario I was rebuffing.

You guys play how you want, I'll continue to eat ranged players like they are canned catfood and laugh at the rest.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Gurnisson on March 27, 2014, 07:15:54 pm
You guys play how you want, I'll continue to eat ranged players like they are canned catfood and laugh at the rest.

Jokes on you, I don't even like canned cat food!
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Riddaren on March 27, 2014, 08:04:44 pm
Well, if a multiplayer game let's you make your own choices (to your advantage) a lot of game imbalances can exist without making it unbalanced, really.
Leauge of legends is a good example of that. 50 heroes that have slightly different abilities and attributes.

cRPG is more problematic. Not so much because the difference between classes being bigger than in LoL.
But because the game experience of ranged, melee and cavalry are so different it's like playing different games and naturally many of us have become attached to a certain way of playing.

That's both good and bad, but mostly bad since the game is now balanced around how well players do with the different classes and how each class compares to another.
Fuck that. We could have had a totally realistic and lethal game by now, with player skill making even more of a difference.

It would just have to be balanced in other ways than gameplay:
1. Different upkeep: We have that already, but it's not balanced IMO, archery is way too cheap, it should be doubled atleast.
2. Different XP: Melee infantry get most. Ranged horsemen get least.
3. Different game modes and maps being better for certain classes.
Title: Re: That thing called "perfect imbalance"
Post by: Teeth on March 28, 2014, 12:04:42 am
(click to show/hide)
First of all, you stated that you pretty much only play siege. Obviously these scenarios do not happen on siege and obviously ranged in siege are countered by running past them and capturing the flag, there is no fear factor in siege and no need to kill the archers, obviously I am talking about battle.

Now on EU battle ranged groups actually often survive till the end. Often on maps there is one spot that gives a slight sense of safety to ranged, a roof, a little hill or some other type of elevation and ranged tend to band together on these locations. In general ranged tend to band together. Due to fear factor from other players for attacking a squad of ranged, they avoid this location as much as they can and rather go for safer targets. This enables the ranged group to often survive until the late part of the round. You are right, 10 shielders versus 10 ranged never happens, I have seen 10 ranged left alive on one team though, sadly the ones alive on the other team are never 10 shielders. So many times the rounds has come down to a 10 vs 10 scenario and very often the team with the most ranged wins, because nobody really knows what to do against them. Their optimal strategy would be a simultaneous charge at every ranged player, but due to lack of coordination single players get picked off because the ranged have a much simpler optimal strategy. Spread out a little, approach the remaining players and focus fire anyone that comes close to one of your ranged teammates. Crossfire does the rest regardless of shields.

You can tell me this never happens, but it does. In short, the natural behaviour of ranged causes them to survive in groups because nobody really feels like going after them and when the player numbers on each side have decreased, a high ranged concentration is nigh impossible to counter. Even if the remaining players on the other team are all shielders they still won't be able to counter due to communication issues and getting kited by one ranged and then crossfired by the others.