cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Horns_Archive on March 16, 2014, 01:38:25 am

Title: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Horns_Archive on March 16, 2014, 01:38:25 am
Today during the casual NA rotation we happened upon this jewel of a map. Our great commander cup457 (on an alt) lead us to the log bridge in a revolt against this map. What I recorded was only one round of three that people jumped like lemmings to their death in a revolt against this poop map. Please enjoy the video and discuss the map rotation freely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Q3xsETck4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Q3xsETck4&feature=youtu.be)

(I post this video in the hopes that we can either get more people working on maps or more people finding better maps. I also posted it because its funny as hell. Hope you enjoyed!)
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Aldogalus on March 16, 2014, 01:41:11 am
for the record, i slipped.

no ban plz
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Blackzilla on March 16, 2014, 01:49:24 am
Viva le Map Rotation Revolution
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Fips on March 16, 2014, 01:51:04 am
So ehm, why exactly is it bad?
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Testicleez on March 16, 2014, 01:51:52 am
Quote from: Fips on March 16, 2014, 01:51:04 am
So ehm, why exactly is it bad?

lol
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on March 16, 2014, 01:57:22 am
Quote from: Fips on March 16, 2014, 01:51:04 am
So ehm, why exactly is it bad?

It allows ranged to freely fire without fear of melee or cavalry and promotes a camp versus camp style of play in which if you're a melee or god forbid cav player you're essentially forced to sit back behind a tree or run up and get shot to shit.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Argoth on March 16, 2014, 01:59:28 am
pls bring back native maps
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sari on March 16, 2014, 02:00:05 am
take out the map with the huge fire pit!!! :!: :!: :!: :!:
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: San on March 16, 2014, 02:02:55 am
Also, flags in water is the dumbest thing.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Boss on March 16, 2014, 02:03:57 am
Quote from: Aldogalus on March 16, 2014, 01:41:11 am
for the record, i slipped.

no ban plz

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Fips on March 16, 2014, 02:04:49 am
Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on March 16, 2014, 01:57:22 am
It allows ranged to freely fire without fear of melee or cavalry and promotes a camp versus camp style of play in which if you're a melee or god forbid cav player you're essentially forced to sit back behind a tree or run up and get shot to shit.

Not exactly the experience i had when i played it as cav on EU1, but okay. At least that's feedback worth reading and what map makers can work with.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: cup457 on March 16, 2014, 02:10:14 am
The map is very large and requires melee to run very far to fight other melee on either a hill or in water which is very annoying. Cav either has free reign to slaughter ranged or is useless. There is always some leecher every round that makes every round last forever.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Aldogalus on March 16, 2014, 02:13:51 am
This was just a creative and fun way to get the attention of those who have control over the map rotation, and to get people discussing this map and other maps that we believe shouldn't be in the rotation.

I pretty well agree with sanderson. I look at this map like the map with the drawbridge with the small gap in the middle, only this map is a much more slow and excruciating death, wading through the water to get shot to death slowly, as opposed to jumping across the gap on the bridge, and instantly getting nudged off of ganged.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Horns_Archive on March 16, 2014, 03:09:41 am
That valcano map...
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Thranduil on March 16, 2014, 04:09:34 am
Hmmm... I wonder who made that map? *whistles*


So what would you like different about it (other than moving the spawn points)? You want the spawn points on the same side of the river? Maybe some objects to provide cover? Data! Data! Data! I can't make bricks without clay!  :P

Whenever I play it, I see many ppl do complain in general but never anything specific about it. I was aiming for a balanced map when I made it, which I might have achieved too well, as every time I've played the map, no team dominates. Each team wins every other round, which I admit makes the map stay in play for a very long time and kills everyones multis.

I assumed most of the fighting to take place to the far right of the map where the ground is smoother for crossing, and the log bridge to be used by sneaky cav. I did not expect that most people would run straight through.
(click to show/hide)

As for the flag spawning in the water, I thought about placing ONE of the three flags there, but decided it would be too annoying. If you look at the picture, you'll see where the Master of the Field flags SHOULD be (and I just checked the file that is in rotation, and they are where they should be). I have no idea why it's spawning in the water, and I'm using the correct entry points (67, 68, 69).


On a side note, I sometimes see people who complain about maps just for the sake of complaining. They never have any real reason as to why they dislike a map, nor do they ever give suggestions to improve a map, or at least, never any serious suggestion. MY suggestion is that if you don't like the current maps, try making your own map. That's exactly what I did 4 years ago. I thought there wasn't enough variety (and there wasn't because all but 3 maps at the time were native maps, and they all played the same, and only 2 other people at the time were making maps and they didn't have the free time I had, so I like to think the golden age of horrible maps was mostly my doing since 50% of the non-native maps at that time were mine. Anyone remember Ice Age? The ships frozen in ice with the pointless gatehouse in the center?  :lol:), so I tried different things, different themes, and I pushed the limits (mostly the wrong limits, but I pushed limits). And I had fun doing it, and since there were no other new maps at the time, people actually gave feedback to me and made suggestions (in the midst of all the "This map sucks dragon ballz" and "Whoever made this map should die"....). There's a lot less serious feedback nowadays.

If map making isn't your cup of tea (and even if it is), if you don't like a map, please explain why. Try and be detailed. Give suggestions. It's why the scene editing thread exists. I assure you, it's main purpose isn't for map makers to inflate their already over-inflated egos (mine is quite full, let me tell you), but to receive suggestions, show current projects, and take feedback. HELP US TO HELP YOU NOT HAVE TO PLAY SHITTY MAPS!


Oh, and Horns, yes, that was funny as hell to watch. I only regret I wasn't a part of it.  :lol:
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Horns_Archive on March 16, 2014, 05:59:51 am
I like the cut of this guys jib.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Bryggan on March 16, 2014, 06:22:12 am
Odd, this map is one of my favourites, both as cav and infantry.  I never take that crazy bridge, just focus on the ford.  And it 'feels' that the ford has strategic value.  Dunno why.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sari on March 16, 2014, 06:28:59 am
Quote from: Bryggan on March 16, 2014, 06:22:12 am
Odd, this map is one of my favourites, both as cav and infantry.  I never take that crazy bridge, just focus on the ford.  And it 'feels' that the ford has strategic value.  Dunno why.

fjord*  :D
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Bryggan on March 16, 2014, 06:48:06 am
Quote from: Sari on March 16, 2014, 06:28:59 am
fjord*  :D
I'm pretty sure its a river.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Snufalufagus on March 16, 2014, 07:56:41 am
Any map that nerfs cav is a good map. :-P
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sandersson Jankins on March 16, 2014, 08:18:11 am
Quote from: Fips on March 16, 2014, 02:04:49 am
Not exactly the experience i had when i played it as cav on EU1, but okay. At least that's feedback worth reading and what map makers can work with.

I'm very surprised at that. People complain about archers and crossbows in NA but in EU they're alleged to be much worse. I can't complain all THAT much since I'm shit at map-making (tried hammer in source a few times and nearly killed myself) but all I can do is post my personal experience. A majority, or vocal minority of people complain about this map when it comes on in NA1, including myself.

I sympathize with the position of scene editors and Fips (whatever the fuck your title is) so I can't make much of a stink, but I've had little or no fun every time this map has come up. It's one of two maps that causes so many people frustration that it messes with teambalance since loads of people will simply not spawn in for the duration of the map. The other one is with the multiple bridges over magma.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sparvico on March 16, 2014, 04:13:35 pm
(click to show/hide)

In my opinion this map would be a lot better if you:
1. Make the log bridge stone or wood (i.e. an actual bridge so you can fight on it without pulling your hair out).
2. Put in a land bridge, or a regular bridge at the fjord (or something that makes it so melee can cross without leaving their asses open to ranged for a good 5-10 seconds)
3. Adjust the spawns like they are in the picture (black dots) and make the master of the field like the red dots.

Also maybe a nice rustic log cabin or two for cover from ranged and to give the scene some atmosphere.

Now mind you I have never made a map for cRPG specifically, though I have done some for other warband mods, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt (and I am also just a plain old dumbass), but I see no reason why this map couldn't be great with just a few minor changes.

(click to show/hide)

Edit: Now that volcano map is one of my personal favorites, but it needs bigger doors at spawn (so many fuckweasles teamwounding) and either a net to catch the jumpers, or someway to auto-kill anyone that jumpes down with a horse.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sir_Mahtin on March 16, 2014, 04:43:37 pm
I like to believe a good map rotation is mainly made up of village maps, with a small amount of cav maps, and one big cav/small village in center map. That's just my thought though.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Kafein on March 16, 2014, 04:52:01 pm
Quote from: Fips on March 16, 2014, 02:04:49 am
Not exactly the experience i had when i played it as cav on EU1, but okay. At least that's feedback worth reading and what map makers can work with.

Just fire all the battle map makers and spend one afternoon generating low elevation high smoothness random plains with varying degrees of vegetation and rocks then save them as maps.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Teeth on March 16, 2014, 06:05:41 pm
Funnily enough there have been multiple map request threads that requested the comeback of certain single bridge maps, including the volcano map, I think exclusively made and supported by NA players. I personally never felt like adding them as I couldn't imagine the fun factor lasting much more than two plays after which the maps are just plainly terrible to play on. Fips went ahead and added the volcano map and unsurprisingly people don't like it much. It is not as bad as I gathered from the original screenshots though.

Personally I didn't like the map from the OP myself either. Water just slows people down and the combination of water and nearby cliffs make ranged really strong. I treasure the few people that make maps though and that is why I give a new map a shot very easily. I think it should be removed in its current state, but please explain to Thranduil what is wrong with it and what could be done to improve it. Mapmaking is a two way street and if you can't be arsed to try it yourself, at least help the people that can out by providing them with feedback. Feedback makes them better mappers and gives you better and fresh maps.

Quote from: Sandersson Jankins on March 16, 2014, 08:18:11 am
I can't complain all THAT much since I'm shit at map-making (tried hammer in source a few times and nearly killed myself)
Few other map makers compare to Warband's, it is very simple and requires no tech savvyness, I am a testament to that. I encourage anyone to have a go at making a map, if you follow the nice guide we have step by step, anyone can do it. The hard part is making a map that everybody likes, if there is one thing I have learned about maps for this game is that preferences vary wildly.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Thranduil on March 16, 2014, 06:24:22 pm
Quote from: Teeth on March 16, 2014, 06:05:41 pm
The hard part is making a map that everybody likes, if there is one thing I have learned about maps for this game is that preferences vary wildly.
Tell me about it! Mine are some of the strangest and are every changing!  :lol:

Anywho, not being one for sitting back and doing nothing (unless I'm feeling very lazy, which is often  :P), I tried making some changes.

(click to show/hide)

Spawns aren't quite where Sparvico suggested, mostly because they were too close to the map edges, and the run distance was too dissimilar.

You can run for the cabin, or take cover in the trees. Just be wary of the map edge if you fight in the trees. It acts like an invisible barrier.

I haven't uploaded the new file yet. Want to see what people think.
And just to keep this thread from going too far off topic with my own maps, here is the link to my map feedback thread: http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/thranduil's-battle-maps-(feedback)/msg973432/#msg973432
Post suggestions and general feedback there. Thanks.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sparvico on March 16, 2014, 07:10:45 pm
Very nice thranduil. My spawn points were really just my estimation of what would allow both teams to reach the fjord at the same time, but that was also because i assumed the cabins would go in by the fjord (kinda one or two on either side). The way that you have it is actually quite a bit better though, since you remove fighting in water almost entirely.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Paul on March 16, 2014, 07:53:04 pm
Quote from: cup457 on March 16, 2014, 02:10:14 am
The map is very large and requires melee to run very far to fight other melee on either a hill or in water which is very annoying.

We could code scooters for American infantry.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Horns_Archive on March 16, 2014, 08:20:39 pm
Quote from: Paul on March 16, 2014, 07:53:04 pm
We could code scooters for American infantry.

(click to show/hide)

only if we can give all the EU players uni-brows (the stereotype wars have begun)
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: PJ1020 on March 16, 2014, 08:31:35 pm
Quote from: Thranduil on March 16, 2014, 06:24:22 pm
Tell me about it! Mine are some of the strangest and are every changing!  :lol:

Anywho, not being one for sitting back and doing nothing (unless I'm feeling very lazy, which is often  :P), I tried making some changes.

(click to show/hide)

Spawns aren't quite where Sparvico suggested, mostly because they were too close to the map edges, and the run distance was too dissimilar.

You can run for the cabin, or take cover in the trees. Just be wary of the map edge if you fight in the trees. It acts like an invisible barrier.

I haven't uploaded the new file yet. Want to see what people think.
And just to keep this thread from going too far off topic with my own maps, here is the link to my map feedback thread: http://forum.melee.org/scene-editing/thranduil's-battle-maps-(feedback)/msg973432/#msg973432
Post suggestions and general feedback there. Thanks.  :mrgreen:

Nice to see you care, thanks.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: HarryCrumb on March 16, 2014, 08:46:40 pm
Quote from: Horns on March 16, 2014, 01:38:25 am
...Our great commander cup457....

that dude is a fkn idiot
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Lemon on March 16, 2014, 09:17:05 pm
I'm like atleast 90% sure that I got my team to do this first...
 :rolleyes:
screenshot of the end of the round for support
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Kung Fu Jesus on March 16, 2014, 09:21:29 pm
I've made a few maps and I think one is still in rotation.

From my time playing, the one thing you can guarantee is troop movement. 95% spawn and make a straight line to the other side, meeting in the middle. Cavs will circle around and there's usually 1-2 ninjas who spend half the round going around the perimeter. When I made maps, first I tried to do a lot of stuff all over the map like little clusters of trees or some fallen logs to provide archer cover and shooting spots. Then I realized that almost no one goes to these areas; its always straight ahead to the middle. So I focused on making the middle interesting. Lots of cover, different avenues and elevations(not terrain but rocks/buildings/etc). And if there's a river, making a lot of bridges, both for cav and so that infantry is not forced into one narrow kill zone.

Regarding the original map that everyone hates, I don't hate it but its not one of my favorites. And the reasons are 1)zero cover along the main path, 2)forced to go into the water, 3)steep elevations. If I was changing the map, I'd add at least one, maybe two, bridges in the main area where people cross. I'd dot the landscape with either small groves of trees, single trees throughout, or rocks. I'd also probably add some large boulders in the shallowest crossing area to break it up and give some cover to those crossing.

Maybe that's a little much. I dunno, as my maps tend to grind your system to a halt cuz I like a lot of little details.

PS: I do hate the volcano map. Those poor textures were not meant to be stretched so much.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Bryggan on March 16, 2014, 09:37:46 pm
Gawd's sakes people, it's ford-
1ford noun \ˈfȯrd\: a shallow part of a river, stream, etc., that may be crossed by walking or driving across it.
 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ford

not fjord.  You guys got Vikings on the brain.
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Sparvico on March 17, 2014, 12:50:57 am
Quote from: Bryggan on March 16, 2014, 09:37:46 pm
Gawd's sakes people, it's ford-
1ford noun \ˈfȯrd\: a shallow part of a river, stream, etc., that may be crossed by walking or driving across it.
 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ford

not fjord.  You guys got Vikings on the brain.

Nope, you're wrong, english is wrong, and your moms wrong. Fjord.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dis Map Rotation Doe
Post by: Bryggan on March 17, 2014, 01:35:09 am
Dear Lord, I am rekt!  Quick, alert the English speaking world we've been wrong all these years!

Edit:  And I told you to stop seeing my mom!