cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 01:31:11 am

Title: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 01:31:11 am: This thread is about heavily nerfing horses. Why that? Easy:

Horses are OP. There is no doubt in that.

A rider has got an additional item in his inventory. Its not just something like gloves or a helmet, its a whole horse.

This horse grants several (and severe) advantages:

- high speed grants higher flexibility
- high speed grants higher protection (there is almost not time to attack you)
- high speed grants higher speed bonus while attacking
- horses can knock down people for what you need a blunt weapon with high damage otherwise. And the knockdown is unblockable, unlike blunt weapons
- horses deal bump damage, which wounds and even kills people.
- horses protect the rider from getting trampled himself.

Especially the bumpkills are unfair, as they happen only because the player pressed [W], which is highly undeserved. I follow the universal equation effort = result. This is why I hate blockcrushing weapons that much, too. There is no effort in using overhead spam or pressing [W] constantly.

The rider has to pay this with only a few skill points spent in riding skill. Thats all. He doesnt have any greater disadvantages from this. At least no disadvantage or weakness which footmen DO NOT have. Of course, his horse can be killed by a lot of things, but so can any other player on foot.

Pikes are only effective if the horse approaches them, there are always plenty targets without pikes. Also they dont kill horses immediately, they only stop them. So they are no real counter, they are only a (rather limited) protection.

The only other disadvantage is the upkeep cavalry has to pay, but currently this doesnt work as intended.

I have to explain something really important: from M&B singleplayer, many movies and other stuff we are used to the fact, that cavalry was dominating medieval battlefields. While this is historically accurate, its absolutely devastating for balance. A cavalryman, even a knight, has to be as strong as an infantryman or an archer in multiplayer. Otherwise there is no point in playing any other class.

So the first thing to accept is: cavalry in cRPG MP has to be a JOKE against cavalry from SP.

As horses grant a lot of advantages, my only solution to this problem is to BOTH nerf horse stats severly, AND to increase some secondary negative effects using a horse. Those secondary effects could be anything, but lowered skills and cheaper other equipment are the easiest solutions.

A small secondary disadvantage is the increased chance of accidentally wound or even kill teammates by bumping them. But this is only a small disadvantage.

Of course we could also implement other stuff, like higher upkeep percentage/chance for horses, braceable spears and whatnot, but this needs some advanced modding, while changing horse stats basically is just editing some text files. (I think ^^).

The Suggestion:

So my approach to balancing is: nerf their stats, and make the player pay the horses with skills and equipment. On the other hand cavalry should become available for any player, not only those who play (and grind) a lot. I try to make cavalry as attractive and obtainable as infantry or archers. Which would be balanced.

1. One first step already was done by the patch: riding skill got 1/3rd of AGI, which is good, as you can lose more skill points for riding. With the former 1/6th you had still some skill points left for athletics, converting or whatever. So this is the point one.

2. Equipment. This is more or less already done by the upkeep system, although currently especially the cheaper horses still pay a lot. So we can either make the cheaper horses more expensive, or we can reduce their effectivity accordingly to the price. I decided for latter, as I wanted to make cavalry available for everyone, not only for grinders. This would also make higher tier horses totally unusable, if we followed the graduation of prices. So this point goes hand in hand with

3. Stats: we need to lower the stats that much that a horse is nothing more than a useful helper, not the central point of the build. This is where I stop writing more walls of text, and actually start with my suggestion:

I will just go according to the price to try to balance them, and my suggested values are completely made by feeling.

Sumpter Horse....................Sumpter Horse
3530....................................3530
hit points 90........................hit points 65
body armor 10.....................body armor 5
requirement 2......................requirement 3
horse speed 37...................horse speed 36
horse maneuver 39.............horse maneuver 38
horse charge 9....................horse charge 1

Rouncey..............................Rouncey
6550...................................6550
hit points 95.......................hit points 65
body armor 16....................body armor 8
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 45..................horse speed 40
horse maneuver 44............horse maneuver 40
horse charge 20.................horse charge 2

Palfrey................................Palfrey
7550...................................7550
hit points 85.......................hit points 55
body armor 12....................body armor 6
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 46..................horse speed 42
horse maneuver 45............horse maneuver 42
horse charge 18.................horse charge 1

Steppe Horse.....................Steppe Horse
8145...................................8145
hit points 85.......................hit points 55
body armor 14....................body armor 7
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 40..................horse speed 38
horse maneuver 51............horse maneuver 46
horse charge 14.................horse charge 1

Desert Horse......................Desert Horse
13440.................................13440
hit points 85.......................hit points 55
body armor 10....................body armor 5
requirement 3.....................requirement 4
horse speed 42..................horse speed 40
horse maneuver 50............horse maneuver 45
horse charge 16.................horse charge 1

Courser..............................Courser
17380................................17380
hit points 100....................hit points 70
body armor 18...................body armor 9
requirement 4....................requirement 5
horse speed 50.................horse speed 45
horse maneuver 44...........horse maneuver 40
horse charge 24................horse charge 2

Sarranid Horse..................Sarranid Horse
20480...............................20480
hit points 90......................hit points 65
body armor 10...................body armor 5
requirement 4....................requirement 5
horse speed 43.................horse speed 39
horse maneuver 54...........horse maneuver 49
horse charge 20................horse charge 2

Destrier.............................Destrier
23920...............................23920
hit points 120....................hit points 80
body armor 27...................body armor 14
requirement 4....................requirement 5
horse speed 43.................horse speed 39
horse maneuver 44...........horse maneuver 40
horse charge 32................horse charge 3

War Horse.........................War Horse
37160................................29160
hit points 120....................hit points 80
body armor 40...................body armor 25
requirement 5....................requirement 6
horse speed 40.................horse speed 35
horse maneuver 41...........horse maneuver 36
horse charge 36................horse charge 5

Large Warhorse................Large Warhorse
39160...............................30160
hit points 120...................hit points 80
body armor 43..................body armor 26
requirement 5...................requirement 6
horse speed 39.................horse speed 34
horse maneuver 41...........horse maneuver 36
horse charge 36................horse charge 5

Cataphract Horse..............Cataphract Horse
44666................................35160
hit points 120....................hit points 80
body armor 50...................body armor 30
requirement 5....................requirement 6
horse speed 40.................horse speed 35
horse maneuver 42...........horse maneuver 37
horse charge 38................horse charge 5

Charger.............................Charger
56460................................39460
hit points 130....................hit points 85
body armor 58...................body armor 34
requirement 5....................requirement 6
horse speed 39..................horse speed 34
horse maneuver 40............horse maneuver 35
horse charge 40.................horse charge 5

Mamluk Horse....................Mamluk Horse
60000................................45000
hit points 140....................hit points 90
body armor 62...................body armor 36
requirement 6....................requirement 7
horse speed 39..................horse speed 34
horse maneuver 40............horse maneuver 35
horse charge 42.................horse charge 6

Plated Charger...................Plated Charger
65536.................................49000
hit points 150.....................hit points 100
body armor 70....................body armor 40
requirement 6.....................requirement 7
horse speed 37...................horse speed 32
horse maneuver 38.............horse maneuver 33
horse charge 46..................horse charge 10
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: UrLukur on January 08, 2011, 02:57:47 pm: I think it is fair to nerf their speed and maneuverability, as those are increased by ridding skill.

I am for horse nerf.

Second thing, i feel that both athletics and ridding (and shield) should be based on both AGI and STR, so balanced builds should be the build with fastest movement and good shield protection, strength build should hit the hardest and soak most, agility build should hit the fastest and allow horse archery/hybrid builds.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Everkistus on January 08, 2011, 03:23:21 pm: This is ridiculous, especially on the lighter horse. I use an unarmored horse because I don't want to be another of those tanks in the battlefield, and to be honest, this would force everyone to use top-tier horses because light horses would be so easy to kill.

Generally right now pikemen oneshot my horse. Twohanders oneshot my horse. Xbowmen twoshot my horse. Pure throwers oneshot my horse. And if I'm on foot I'm shit because I my character is in fact totally build around riding and my horse.

tl;dr: Nothing wrong with light/medium horses.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Belmont on January 08, 2011, 03:32:29 pm: Quote from: Everkistus on January 08, 2011, 03:23:21 pm
tl;dr: Nothing wrong with light/medium horses.

Agreed, light cavalry is very well balanced right now and should be encouraged over armored horses. The only that should be nerfed is bump damage (which has already been slightly nerfed) and the Lance of Compensation (remove LoC topic (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,516.0.html)).
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 03:32:43 pm: That's the point of my suggestion: increase vulnerability to make up the increased offensive skills. Being oneshot by everything is perfectly fine.

Currently cavalry acts like raging bulls: ride among the enemies and slash to the right and the left. Cavalry should be forced to hide more, start an attack against one or two enemies after having chosen the safest route through the enemy force, ride the planned way and hide again somewhere to wait for the next occasion to hunt down another enemy who seperated a bit from the rest of his team.

This is the way cav should go. No battering ram any more.

Edit: get used to the fact that playing on a horseback must feel more difficult/dangerous than playing on foot!
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Belmont on January 08, 2011, 03:47:48 pm: Quote from: Joker
That's the point of my suggestion: increase vulnerability to make up the increased offensive skills. Being oneshot by everything is perfectly fine.

It is very easy to one shot a horse below a Destrier, especially with the rising popularity of throwing. Two handed swords and pole arms (both can stop horses) still eat unaware cavalry for breakfast.

Quote from: Joker
Currently cavalry acts like raging bulls: ride among the enemies and slash to the right and the left. Cavalry should be forced to hide more, start an attack against one or two enemies after having chosen the safest route through the enemy force, ride the planned way and hide again somewhere to wait for the next occasion to hunt down another enemy who seperated a bit from the rest of his team.

Cavalry is already forced to do this with light horses, however, it is true that heavy horses can take a LOT of damage and often survive a fatal mistake. However, with the upkeep system I am not sure if heavy horses should be nerfed (except charge damage) as they already cost quite a lot of money. EDIT: Cavalry also costs a lot more skill points now, making a dismounted horseman not as effective on the ground as a pure or hybrid melee character.

Quote from: Joker
Edit: get used to the fact that playing on a horseback must feel more difficult/dangerous than playing on foot!

In my opinion, it already is. Your horse can die very easily and it only takes a single archer, crossbowman or thrower to kill your horse (I am of course talking about light horses). The reason horses seem so powerful is due to the lack of awareness and that is steadily decreasing each day as more and more players use tactics and formations.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 03:58:37 pm: Quote from: Belmont on January 08, 2011, 03:47:48 pm
Your horse can die very easily and it only takes a single archer, crossbowman or thrower to kill your horse (I am of course talking about light horses).

A dead horse doesn't mean you are dead.

I tried to balance the actual VALUE of a horse accordingly to its price. Let's take a steppe horse, with my suggested stats:

Steppe Horse
8145
hit points 55
body armor 7
requirement 4
horse speed 38
horse maneuver 46
horse charge 1

Let's compare it to other items:

Poleaxe
8036
weight 3.25
requirement 17
spd rtng 90
weapon length 141
swing damage 42, cut
thrust damage 31 pierce

Heavy Great Sword
9001
weight 2.75
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 120
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce

Sarranid Guard Armor
8529
weight 14.5
head armor 0
body armor 46
leg armor 6
requirement 11

Now which of those items has the greatest value on the battlefield? Which grants most and the most severe benefits? I would say it's still the nerfed horse! (Of course there are different situations, so you can never tell, but in most cases...)
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Belmont on January 08, 2011, 04:17:37 pm: Quote from: Joker
A dead horse doesn't mean you are dead.

Rarely will a horseman survive after his horse is killed near the enemy as it is likely that a pike has killed your horse (there has been a huge increase of pike men since the patch) and you will be stabbed by him/her and quickly surrounded by mob. If your horse is taken out far away from the enemy you risk ranged troops and/or cavalry picking you off.

Quote from: Joker
Now which of those items has the greatest value on the battlefield? Which grants most and the most severe benefits? I would say it's still the nerfed horse! (Of course there are different situations, so you can never tell, but in most cases...)

And I would say that the weapon and/or armor has better value as I don't risk as much (upkeep) by playing infantry. A horseman has to pay for his horse, armor and specialized weapons/equipment (lance+shield). Apart from an economical aspect, by playing light cavalry you are suddenly a huge target as your horse is very easy to hit and you will also have enemy cavalry chasing you.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: longfeather on January 08, 2011, 04:40:27 pm: This thread blows, I don't see running ninjas asking for a limit on Endurance eh? Perhaps only run speed for 4sec and then walk to be fair? It is like they have a whole item in their inventory because they can run so much faster than everyone. Horses take a ton to Spec and now if you actually use your horse since their costs are so damn high it is almost impossible to ride them due to repair costs. Horses are part of battle and were all the way up till the early 1930s. Get used to them
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Ujin on January 08, 2011, 04:53:43 pm: Joker, you want too much.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Maira on January 08, 2011, 05:01:54 pm: I AM dead without my horse. Due to the level cap I had to spec to use my pony, without it I AM dead.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Dreakon_The_Destroyer on January 08, 2011, 05:02:42 pm: I feel a GREAT idea would be if a horse takes a chunk of damage for bump/charges.

SERIOUSLY they are charging through armored men with sharp weapons, they shud be hurt a lot by this. This would also stop the annoying ass cavs from constantly charging through.

Its one thing to run full speed with a lance at a guy. but hitting him dead on when hes got 100lb armor? shud be close to death or half health at least.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Teeth on January 08, 2011, 05:22:41 pm: Have you ever played cav post patch? I bought a destrier and i cant even keep that up continously, there are rounds that i will ahve to go back to inf cause there is no money for repairs. Im not earning any money just paying a lot to ride a horse. And horses are already rpetty vulnerable cause nowadays its hard to keep up any armored horse. I think cav is pretty balanced cause it costs a lot.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 05:29:40 pm: I play cav myself, also after the patch :wink:

It's really easy:

All players have a budget of about 20-25k. Within this budget, all classes have to buy appropriate equipment. An archer will buy a bow, arrows, a backup weaon and light armour. Infantry will buy different stuff. And cavalry will buy stuff, of which one is the horse.

WHAT YOU GET for your money, must be of the same value for EVERY class. This means you can't get a pretty good horse for the value of a good armour or a good weapon, a horse is far more valuable!

With other words:

[Sword + shield + heavy armour + skills] = [mace + bow&arrows + light armour + skills] = [horse + shield + lance + light armour + skills]. And this has to be valid for ALL price, actual value, effectivity, whatever. It's the basic balance between classes (of the same level, of course).

As I also said it has to be valid for price, horses can't be that expensive. But currently they are way too good for what you pay, a sumpter horse is only 3500 gold!!! So the only consequence is to nerf horses down.

If horses weren't a massive advantage, then why is the amount of light cavalry on the servers increasing every day? :?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Teeth on January 08, 2011, 05:43:07 pm: Cause people like you keep yelling that they're OP and they want a piece of the cake. A sumpter horse of 3,5 k is pretty much worthless. Pikes are cheap and defeat almost every cav, horsemen really have a lot to watch out for especially now that one ranged attack can cost them their horse and therefore mostly their lives.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Brutal on January 08, 2011, 06:05:07 pm: Almost everything you say is true Joker BUT when i m on foot i kill way more cav than cav kill me.
I actually wish they come and charge me because most of the time they are easy kill.

If you get killed by cav almost every time time it's your on fault. Just like when you get killed as a cav.
If you make mistake you die !! it's true for everyclass no just cav.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Kophka on January 08, 2011, 06:25:51 pm: I'm not sure how anyone can say that cav is OP, unless it's the same people saying everything is OP. Cav has so many counters for as low as 1/10th the upkeep cost. Any long 2 hander can take out an unaware cavalry player, just as cav can take out an unaware player. Any polearm can take out an unaware cav player, see above. Any archer/xbow/thrower can take out an unaware OR aware cav player. We can knock people down AS WE PASS AT HIGH SPEED, leaving us no time to take advantage of it. We can't just target the enemy in a melee crush, as we'll knock down our friends as well. To counter that we knock down with no time to take advantage of it, killing our horse knocks us down, often giving time for enemies to hit us twice, or even 3 times, death for any cav player.. Pair this with the fact that the speed bonus to damage WORKS BOTH WAYS, giving us and our horse horrendous damage for catching an arrow or a spear at a gallop. Our advantage lies in mobility. A clever cavalry player can hit in locations he was not expected to be in ( 'cept our hoofbeats give us away), and can get away from sticky situations (until his horse gets one shotted because we can't watch in for directions at once ; unlike IRL, our horse is not a companion with its own eyes and nose, just a legged transport). I think your problem may be with specific cav builds, and that's your prerogative. But in your rage, please remember that blanket statements like "Cav is OP! NERF ALL CAV" are just silly.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 06:36:55 pm: It's no rage, I play cav myself. :mrgreen:

I also want to give you another argument:

If cav gets nerfed, then less players will play it. If less players play cav, less people will run around with pikes, and will care less about cavalry. So for the few "remaining" cavalrymen the game would become quite a bit easier, despite the nerf.

You know what makes me upset? Currently I don't see a reason why the growing of the cav amount on the server shoud stop. I fear after some time we will have 50% cavalry, totally immobilizing the other classes, making them sit in ruins, towns and on hills. This is my main reason.

Before the patch the easy kills of cavalry made me upset, as I thought they weren't deserved, while some infantry is risking the own skin much more each time. This got a minor problem now.

Or, in other words: I want to make cavalry way less attractive. From your answers I conclude, my suggestion was really good :lol:
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Serth on January 08, 2011, 06:37:17 pm: Every single time this guy plays a class he starts a new thread about something being op -.-

Cav isnt op, atleast light cav isnt. i play light cav and it dies shit easy..

Only thing that needs nerf is the heavy cav's mobility
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 06:38:28 pm: Me? Are you sure? :?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Serth on January 08, 2011, 06:39:18 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 06:38:28 pm
Me? Are you sure? :?

Extremely... I agree with you, but only with the higher tier horses(plated lolhorses) ... They merely need speed and mobility nerf and everything will be k.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Kophka on January 08, 2011, 06:42:05 pm: Honestly Joker, I've seen so many suggestion posts of yours, and I highly doubt that any of them are going to implemented. You tend to go overboard on things, with too many generalities and blanket statements.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 06:46:54 pm: Quote from: Serth on January 08, 2011, 06:39:18 pm
Extremely... I agree with you, but only with the higher tier horses(plated lolhorses) ... They merely need speed and mobility nerf and everything will be k.

Okay.

I was just wondering, and I just checked the topics I started. I wrote this topic here about horses, and another one about certain weapons, especially the blockcrushing bullshit, which needs no skill to have a fairly good chance of killing anybody. Then, some longer time ago, I made a thread to implement some kind of requirement for crossbows and removing the (old) diff 5 horses. (Both things were a problem pre patch, no doubt).

That are all nerf threads I ever made. In fact I plan to start a thread about buffing archers a bit again, and to increase the bag sizes for throwing weapons. Both are classes I actually don't play.

Of course I am always stuck to my personal point of view, but nonetheless I try to stay fair as much as I can. :?

This is why I would also lower the speed rating of most 2hd weapons (also 2hd polearms) by 2 points or so, to give the 1hd a chance. Because I am a 2hd-polearm AGI build, and it's really easy for me to outspam people. This can't be. :lol:

Quote from: Kophka on January 08, 2011, 06:42:05 pm
Honestly Joker, I've seen so many suggestion posts of yours, and I highly doubt that any of them are going to implemented. You tend to go overboard on things, with too many generalities and blanket statements.

Tweaking things only a bit, as you are afraid of greater changes, doesn't help anything. :?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Sir_Walther on January 08, 2011, 06:51:05 pm: omg joker . Stupid stats . 5 charge???? . Makes no sense. Horses are fine. Look at the prices.

Yes i remember the threat about OPPPP PIKES from joker, but didnt read it :D
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: EponiCo on January 08, 2011, 07:31:51 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 06:36:55 pm
You know what makes me upset? Currently I don't see a reason why the growing of the cav amount on the server shoud stop. I fear after some time we will have 50% cavalry, totally immobilizing the other classes, making them sit in ruins, towns and on hills. This is my main reason.

I agree to this. I don't have a particular problem killing cavalry, I've been anti cav for a long time, but in all this time I've only watched them become more and more. And if 50% of the enemy is cav all that remains is shoot at a horse, watch it ride away or sometimes kill, shoot the next to comes passing, rinse repeat, or stand guard with pikes, I don't want to play moorhuhn all day, especially with ranged nerf. Be in a melee, good way to get morningstared from behind stop the cav there good way to be killed by infantry and watch the rider get away with still half hp. All I'd want regarding horses would be to limit their numbers ... heck, a chocolate chip cookie system that just said "no peon, you don't get a horse" would be better than having them accessible to everyone if it came to me. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 07:57:42 pm: Quote from: Sir_Walther on January 08, 2011, 06:51:05 pm
omg joker . Stupid stats . 5 charge???? . Makes no sense. Horses are fine. Look at the prices.

Yes i remember the threat about OPPPP PIKES from joker, but didnt read it :D

You remember wrong, never wrote such a topic as I always thought pikes were fine. If at all, they need a buff!

What do you care for charge? Your weapon has to make kills, not your horse. :?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Kophka on January 08, 2011, 08:13:33 pm: Actually, I'm in support of charge being reduced. I too believe that weapons should get the kills, and not the mount. It's realistic that it does damage to you, but it's not good for the game. Knockdown/stun, yes, but damage, no, it's a bit unbalanced. But there is nothing wrong with the rest of the stats on horses, the only problem I have is that heavy horses are faster than light because of the effect of the higher riding requirement. Makes being light cavalry by choice a self-nerf, with out any advantages for choosing a lighter play style.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Opium.dk on January 08, 2011, 10:54:08 pm: Theres no reason to nerf.

Just make the upkeep and cost much bigger.

Getting a horse for 3k is ridiculos when you earn 10k an hour.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Poetrydog on January 08, 2011, 11:43:22 pm: Quote from: Opium.dk on January 08, 2011, 10:54:08 pm
Theres no reason to nerf.

Just make the upkeep and cost much bigger.

Getting a horse for 3k is ridiculos when you earn 10k an hour.

Well what Joker (i think) wants to accomplish is not to nerf it by money, then they'd still be OP. From what i read he wants them to be easier obtainable and in return also be harder to get kills with. Thereby making cav accessible for 1st gen players but a lot less attractive
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 08, 2011, 11:58:42 pm: Right.

Making them just more expensive wouldn't help much, from two reasons:

1st: everyone should have the chance to use cavalry, if he wants to. This doesn't mean he automatically gets better in the game, so I think a stat nerf according to the few thousands you have to pay would be justified. (And, if you look at it properly, if 80HP or 60HP doesn't make a real difference, with the speed bonus for attackers your horse will be dead anyway from a pikestab/swordslash. Also 2-3 points speed less don't change much). A simple reason why the stats deserve to be nerfed, despite any value calculations or whatever: there are too many light horses on the servers! You have to nerf horses until you reach a horse population on the servers which is acceptable. If after some time the population gets too low you can buff them a bit again, then nerf them, and so on, until balance has leveled out itself on the ideal niveau.

2nd: making things expensive doesn't really balance them out, I think. The patch was meant to stop those tincans on plated horses, but if someone saves some money he can play as heavy knight for some rounds. For the other players who have to deal with him nothing changes much. If he is actually on the map, what do you care about that he will be able to do this only for the next few rounds? Currently he is there and is collecting cheap kills. And as soon as he runs out of money another guy puts on his plate. And no, the patch didn't minimize the overall number of (heavy) cavalry on the servers, as the cavalry players are alternating now in their lolstomp, because of the simple fact that with the new money income much more players can purchase heavy equipment.

Before the patch we had 10% of the players playing 100% of their time as heavy cav. Now we have 30% of the players playing 33% of their time as heavy cav. Both is 10% heavy cav on the battlefield. (Don't argue about the 10%, could be 5%, 12% or 2%, don't know. Just felt values.)

This is the reason why I think that in most cases a balancing by price does not really eliminate problems. The stats decide about how many players want to use an item, not the price!
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: bruce on January 09, 2011, 02:51:02 pm: Tbh:
- nerf HP of all horses to some uniform number - the armoured ones are protected by armour already, the double durability buff made sense with piercing accurate archery, now it doesn't, since now armour is actually protective, and the extra HP enables you to screw up too many times by driving into pikes/spears and riding off merrily
- the riding skill made all horses faster - partially it's good because it distinguishes people who've invested into riding a horse from the ones which didn't, but it also gave them all a buff which is slightly too much - shaving off a point or two of speed/agility to get them more or less back to old speeds (or only slightly above with high riding skill) would make sense

I've got a level 30 lance horseman (on a light horse) and, well, the single biggest threat are other, better lancers (since lance vs lance fights, someone either loses a horse or dies in one hit), then HAs (because they kill a normal horse in 2-3 arrows and can follow you around), throwers, then foot archers with warbow & longbow and crossbowmen. However, it is - in absence of all these things, and on appropriate maps, really really powerful.

Also the LOC needs to go away for good. It's a stupid, silly weapon.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: LordRichrich on January 09, 2011, 03:01:00 pm: *sigh* We've been over this
Cavalry are only op'd when the other team don't look around.
If the looked around they'd notice cav and do something about it
As my 2h, no cav will charge into me when I have my thrust ready unless they have armoured
As a cavalry (on a sumpter I admit) I will never ride into an enemy who is looking at me
It's all about team work
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Noble Crassius on January 09, 2011, 03:44:42 pm: mmm I gatta say post patch ive been noticing rounds being decided who has the most cavalry. That being said I usually play on populated servers of 30-40 but it still stands if the usual ratio of cavalry and infantry is thrown off which ever team ends up with the most cav has the greatest chance of winning. I look around but when I'm being constantly ran over by cavs from multiple directions you can't really do anything about it.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 09, 2011, 03:49:25 pm: That's the point!

That it's the cavalry, which decides, not the infantry or archers, says pretty mucuh anything about the actual power of this class.

Also: of course attention is important for cavalry, but when there are 20 horses swarming you and your team, it's plain impossible to repell them all during the whole round! They will first get one teammember, then another, and the more they get the easier it becomes for them! So in theory you are right, but in reality... :?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 09, 2011, 04:01:51 pm: Seriously the only problem I have with cav is the plated charger and I've only seen it twice so far whilst playing the patch..
What is everyones problem with cav ... If the enemy team has more cav players than you, then that means you probably have more infantry or more archers.. Use your advantage don't let them force you at a disadvantage, if you have a lot of infantry tell them to get pikes.

Cav are over powered because people think this game is about being an unstoppable killing machine & not about team work.

In my opinion pikes with 1 wpp counter any type of cav... 1 WPP, without even an investment you can stop a 23k horse instantly and maybe even kill it depending on where you hit.... So yeah whats over powered about cav?

Just my opinions here but what is truly over powered is the lack of team work exhibited by C-rpg players, which is fine, it's a game you play it to have fun not to win every round but it would definitely be easier to beat cav if your team didn't just mob forward as fast as possible in a long scattered formation all over the map.... Without even a spear.

Just my 2 cents, don't nerf cav, nerf non-team players. :P
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: bruce on January 09, 2011, 04:12:23 pm: Quote from: LordRichrich on January 09, 2011, 03:01:00 pm
It's all about team work

Your argument is fail. The reason is simple - the class which needs teamwork to be taken down and can take down other classes without teamwork is a OP class (since it IS more powerful then the classes which don't need teamwork to be taken down, and hence is overpowered compared to them). While riding around on a horse backstabbing people IS fun, it definitely is not for the people who're trying to melee and have to somehow simultaneously melee and fend cavalry off at the same time. So it is, in my view, balanced if horses die more easily to pikes/spears/etc, because getting piked/speared is a screwup you should pay dearly for.

The LOC, equally, needs to go.

If 20-30% of people are on horses, it makes infantryman's life hell, because you can only keep tabs on so many opponents. Especially when they're now even faster then before. The current explosion of cavalry is, of course, due to archery being balanced now instead of lolautocannon of doom (which was even more broken), and also objective buffs to horses (speed and maneuver from higher riding), but something should be done either through price adjustments or through a change in stats or a combination of the two most likely.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 09, 2011, 04:45:00 pm: Quote from: bruce on January 09, 2011, 04:12:23 pm
If 20-30% of people are on horses, it makes infantryman's life hell, because you can only keep tabs on so many opponents. Especially when they're now even faster then before. The current explosion of cavalry is, of course, due to archery being balanced now instead of lolautocannon of doom (which was even more broken), and also objective buffs to horses (speed and maneuver from higher riding), but something should be done either through price adjustments or through a change in stats or a combination of the two most likely.

And there we are again, as I think that price balancing doesn't work properly, we have to balance the stats. That's what I did here.

Read the stats of the horses, I don't think it's gone overboard or something like this. The light horses lost a few points in health, armour, maneuver and speed, and a bit to quite a lot in charge.

Armoured horses lost a lot in hitpoints, speed, armour and charge, but their price got lowered. This way they got a little cheaper, but also less effective, which will hopefully make them appear less on the servers. And if they do, they will hopefully dominate less. :?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Riddaren on January 09, 2011, 06:54:20 pm: One option could be to increase the requirements for the horses, the riding skill.
So instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6 you need 1,3,5,7,9,10.

Also, lower the speed and manuverability of all horses but make the riding skill increase them more than now.
It should be almost useless to ride a sumpter horse with 1 in riding skill...

I assume it isn't possible to implement but it would be cool if the horse sometimes didn't turn the way you wanted.
So with 10 in riding skill the horse always does what you want but with 1 there is a risk of say, 10% that it moves left instead of right. At riding skill 5 it would be 5% etc.

I don't think the HP of the horses should be decreased. Instead they should be increased.

Furhermore I don't think you have to sacrifice realism (unit stats) to balance a game. Instead you can balance it by changing prices, upkeeps, requirements etc.

Also, I think it would be more fun if the different classes needs to teamplay more and I think most of you agree.
I think it is fun and realistic that a horsemen turn around when they see spearmen and that archers run in fear when they see heavy cavalry.
That is the way it should be and it is also realistic.

Archers should not be able to counter HEAVY cavalry, without heavy losses. They should rely on the help of spearmen. If that is not possible they should either flee or die unless they can outnumber the cavalry something like 4 to 1.

Cavalry, light or heavy, should not be able to counter spearmen, without heavy losses, instead they should seek help from archers and infantry. If that is not possible they shall lose most of their horses if they choose to charge and then fight with a disadvatage on foot. Just like it is now. If the riding skill requirements are "doubled" this will be the case for sure.

etc...

Maybe it would be good to limit the weapon slots to 3 instead of 4? That way it will be less overpowered multiclasses that areable to counter anything. It wouln't be more realistic and I'm not sure if it would be more fun either... but it would require more teamplay. But I'm not so sure about this one...
Also this has already been taking care of somehow by the introduction of upkeep which limits you to use top stuff in every weapon slot simple because it would be too expensive.

To balance it even more it would be good if you could increase the upkeep even more if you carry more than one weapon type.
Someone who wears 3 different weapon types; sword, spear and crossbow could counter anything and that should cost imo. Not for realism but for balancning and making it more class based.
But I think that would be hard or even impossible to implement. I'm sure you can count the number of slots used but can you do a count of weapon types?

(You don't want to punish an archer that has one bow and 2-3 slots of arrows)

/ From someone who wants this mod to become more class based (teamplay based) as well as more realistic :)
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Serth on January 10, 2011, 09:55:10 am: Its funny how you want to nerf the one class that is the easiest to kill if you use your head, if you have a pike against someone on... Let's say sarranid horse, one poke is enough the kill the horse and then you poke the rider once on the ground and poof your problem is gone. If you actually pay some fuckin attention you can even kill a horseman by using a 2 handed sword...
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Welcome_To_Hell on January 10, 2011, 05:59:31 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on January 09, 2011, 04:45:00 pm
********
Pile of nonsense.

I'm sorry to say this, but:

(click to show/hide)
Get the hell out of here, you are incredibly out of touch with what is going on in CRPG. Please get your head out of your ass.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Boss_Awesome on January 10, 2011, 06:43:43 pm: I read the first 4 sentences of the opening post and realized that this is a bad thread. Do we really need to nerf everything into oblivion to make up for the fact that a lot of two hander players arent very good?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Goralion on January 10, 2011, 07:18:10 pm: The horses doesn't have to be nerfed, especially nowadays as there are less armoured horses than before the patch (haven't seen any plated charger since the patch).
With my archer alt, I'm still able to nearly one shot any non-armoured horses with an arrow right in the head.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Thomek on January 10, 2011, 08:21:37 pm: Started a HA for testing purposes to check what the whine was all about. Currently lvl 15..

It's a joke. I got 0 ZERO PS and a light lance, 1 shotting higher level, and armored peeps with my couched light lance.. :rolleyes:

U could make a toon with 6 strength and do the same.. It's retarded and easymode. I'm also killing people with my lvl 15 HA, even other HA.

Maybe I think it's easymode only because I've been a ninja for so long.. but hell.. Cav needs a nerf somehow, and I think maneuverability would be the thing to nerf. That way a horse would work only for specific situations and charges, and not fly around on mountains fighting infantry and winning.

Also, if possible remove the horse-slot, and let horses be in the normal weapon slots. You can still fly around with a 1h, shield and a lance, HA can be HA and have 40+ arrows and a bow, or less arrows and a lance/1h etc..

that's just my opinion. I'll let you know my further experience when I reach lvl 30.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 10:05:22 pm: Main thing that need to be done is decreasing speed and maneuverability for all horses (to account for normal levels of ridding skill) and to cut down health of armored horses to level of destrier or slightly higher tops. Armored horses edge over destrier should be armor, not health.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Ujin on January 10, 2011, 10:06:17 pm: Quote from: Thomek on January 10, 2011, 08:21:37 pm
Started a HA for testing purposes to check what the whine was all about. Currently lvl 15..

It's a joke. I got 0 ZERO PS and a light lance, 1 shotting higher level, and armored peeps with my couched light lance.. :rolleyes:

U could make a toon with 6 strength and do the same.. It's retarded and easymode. I'm also killing people with my lvl 15 HA, even other HA.

Maybe I think it's easymode only because I've been a ninja for so long.. but hell.. Cav needs a nerf somehow, and I think maneuverability would be the thing to nerf. That way a horse would work only for specific situations and charges, and not fly around on mountains fighting infantry and winning.

Also, if possible remove the horse-slot, and let horses be in the normal weapon slots. You can still fly around with a 1h, shield and a lance, HA can be HA and have 40+ arrows and a bow, or less arrows and a lance/1h etc..

that's just my opinion. I'll let you know my further experience when I reach lvl 30.
Omfg Thomek. Your ninja friends can kill horsies in a matter of seconds with throwing weapons, same goes to xbowmen, even archers -). Don't even wanna mention the growing number of pikemen and spearmen on the servers. Bad cav (and most players are bad cav) gets killed no prob.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 10:08:48 pm: Quote from: Shogunate_Ujin on January 10, 2011, 10:06:17 pm
Omfg Thomek. Your ninja friends can kill horsies in a matter of seconds with throwing weapons, same goes to xbowmen, even archers -). Don't even wanna mention the growing number of pikemen and spearmen on the servers. Bad cav (and most players are bad cav) gets killed no prob.

There are threads about nerf for throwing, one even started by you. Pike or spear don't stand much chances when face cav 1 on 1. Lances just own those.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Welcome_To_Hell on January 10, 2011, 10:23:48 pm: Quote from: Thomek on January 10, 2011, 08:21:37 pm
Started a HA for testing purposes to check what the whine was all about. Currently lvl 15..

It's a joke. I got 0 ZERO PS and a light lance, 1 shotting higher level, and armored peeps with my couched light lance.. :rolleyes:

U could make a toon with 6 strength and do the same.. It's retarded and easymode. I'm also killing people with my lvl 15 HA, even other HA.

Maybe I think it's easymode only because I've been a ninja for so long.. but hell.. Cav needs a nerf somehow, and I think maneuverability would be the thing to nerf. That way a horse would work only for specific situations and charges, and not fly around on mountains fighting infantry and winning.

Also, if possible remove the horse-slot, and let horses be in the normal weapon slots. You can still fly around with a 1h, shield and a lance, HA can be HA and have 40+ arrows and a bow, or less arrows and a lance/1h etc..

that's just my opinion. I'll let you know my further experience when I reach lvl 30.

Bullshit.

Quote from: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 10:08:48 pm
Pike or spear don't stand much chances when face cav 1 on 1. Lances just own those.

More Bullshit.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 11:29:53 pm: Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 10, 2011, 10:23:48 pm
More Bullshit.

O'rly? Your words are bullshit. Cavalry outreach infantry. thats why inf weapon sucks against cav.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on January 11, 2011, 12:13:29 am: I didn't read the whole thread, but I'd just like to say that the desert horse should be cheaper or more comparable to the steppe horse. Whether the overall prices are good or not, I'm not sure, but the steppe horse is actually slightly better than the desert horse because of that extra armor. But yet the desert horse is way more expensive.

Also... pikes definitely have the reach advantage versus cav, lol. Weapons on foot seem to have the same range as weapons on horseback. The cav just can maneuver to avoid hits and throw off the infantry's attack timing while timing their own attack perfectly. On the other hand, there's a lot of things infantry can do to get their own advantages. I've seen the legs of the cav taken out with a low swing of a long sword or axe, out of the reach of the cav. And attacking the rider low on his body instead of high at the head or chest can give infantry extra range, beating a cav that has identical range.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 11, 2011, 12:55:15 am: Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 10, 2011, 05:59:31 pm
I'm sorry to say this, but:

Get the hell out of here, you are incredibly out of touch with what is going on in CRPG. Please get your head out of your ass.

So you don't think there is too much cavalry on the maps?

Also there is no need to insult me this way, as I got some positive feedback, too! And, to be honest, I probably thought a lot more hours about balancing than you did, so rather participate in a constructive manner or just stay quiet.

Quote from: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 10:05:22 pm
Main thing that need to be done is decreasing speed and maneuverability for all horses (to account for normal levels of ridding skill) and to cut down health of armored horses to level of destrier or slightly higher tops. Armored horses edge over destrier should be armor, not health.

That's basically what I wrote in the OP.

The lowered HP for light horses were only to force them a bit more to hide behind cover. (I want cavalry to be of zero tolerance for mistakes)
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am: Ohhh jeezzz.... Where do i begin...

Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?
Available for everyone not only for grinders?
Nothing more than a useful helper?
Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Horse is dead rider still alive?

Lets see here..

Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

2 Francisca's
2 Light crossbow bolts
2 - 3 Arrows
1 Jarid
1 Throwing lance
1 Heavy crossbow bolt

Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you.

Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.

Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?
In other words, make horses shitty useless items who everyone has but rarely uses because they get them killed.
Cavalry is supposed to be rare and expensive, everyone and their brother riding around on horses just like now is little different than native circle stab.

Available for everyone not only for grinders?
Again maybe you haven't noticed but the new money/xp system allows people to make ~10k/hour when wearing mid tier armor. There is no grind in obtaining high tier equipment/horses anymore.

Nothing more than a useful helper?
Don't you think that's a little bit bias? Might as well say: lets remove horses and replace them with donkeys and mules. (I'm sure chadz wouldn't mind)

Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Maybe you have not noticed, but the bump damage has been halved, there are very few heavy horses, horses barely kill anyone by trampling them.

Unfair? Nothing more than pressed W?

It is totally unfair that you did not/could not move when you saw a two ton beast was rumbling in your direction, how sad it ran u over and it hurt.

As infantry you have another two keys A and D, try to use them sometime. Also there are long sharp sticks called pikes, everyone has one now, I suggest you too give them a try.

Horse is dead rider still alive?
Obviously you are not a cav player lol. 9 out of 10 times when your horse dies there will be a mob of infantry bashing away at your scull and stabbing you in the butt with their sticks, or an archer/crossbowman/thrower throwing sending in projectiles to finish the job, or the cav that just dehorsed you pulling in a couch/stab/bumpslash to finish the job while you are tasting the dirt.

9 out of 10 times when the rider looses his horse he also looses his life.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 11, 2011, 01:47:46 am: Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Ohhh jeezzz.... Where do i begin...

Lets see here..

Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

2 Francisca's [Too much]
2 Light crossbow bolts [Too much]
2 - 3 Arrows [Too much]
1 Jarid
1 Throwing lance
1 Heavy crossbow bolt

Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you.

Marked.

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.

I AM cavalry myself :rolleyes:

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am

Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?
In other words, make horses shitty useless items who everyone has but rarely uses because they get them killed.
Cavalry is supposed to be rare and expensive, everyone and their brother riding around on horses just like now is little different than native circle stab.

I don't know what's the difference to the following point:

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am

Available for everyone not only for grinders?
Again maybe you haven't noticed but the new money/xp system allows people to make ~10k/hour when wearing mid tier armor. There is no grind in obtaining high tier equipment/horses anymore.

Thing is: I want all classes being playable all the time. (If I could decide, even tincans, but balanced!). Making horses extremely expensive doesn't make them a class any more, but something you do "from time to time". I don't want that. So they have to stay cheap. (But not cheaper than they are worth!)

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Nothing more than a useful helper?
Don't you think that's a little bit bias? Might as well say: lets remove horses and replace them with donkeys and mules. (I'm sure chadz wouldn't mind)

Well, they aren't supposed to be the battering rams any more. They have to rely on the infantry to disctract the enemy, and then pick out single enemies from the duels everywhere. Already now this is the best use for cavalry, anyway!

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Maybe you have not noticed, but the bump damage has been halved, there are very few heavy horses, horses barely kill anyone by trampling them.

Unfair? Nothing more than pressed W?

It is totally unfair that you did not/could not move when you saw a two ton beast was rumbling in your direction, how sad it ran u over and it hurt.

As infantry you have another two keys A and D, try to use them sometime. Also there are long sharp sticks called pikes, everyone has one now, I suggest you too give them a try.

I don't know what about you, but I don't have eyes in the back of my head, especially not when engaged with fighting someone else. Also horses are quite sneaky, and you hear them when it's already too late. It's as simple as that: what you don't touch with YOUR WEAPON, MUST NOT DIE!

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Horse is dead rider still alive?
Obviously you are not a cav player lol. 9 out of 10 times when your horse dies there will be a mob of infantry bashing away at your scull and stabbing you in the butt with their sticks, or an archer/crossbowman/thrower throwing sending in projectiles to finish the job, or the cav that just dehorsed you pulling in a couch/stab/bumpslash to finish the job while you are tasting the dirt.

9 out of 10 times when the rider looses his horse he also looses his life.

What about horses being shot dead? You always die of it?

Also very often I manage to get up again, in about 50% of cases, I would say.

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Obviously you are not a cav player lol.

I am. You fail. :lol:
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Goralion on January 11, 2011, 11:24:22 am: "Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

2 Francisca's [Too much]
2 Light crossbow bolts [Too much]
2 - 3 Arrows [Too much]
1 Jarid
1 Throwing lance
1 Heavy crossbow bolt

Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you.

Marked."

How can you say that light horses should be OS by all ranged weapons ? You KNOW it would be unplayable. This is a non-sense. Every time a cav strikes the ennemy team, he gets out with at least 1 arrow in his horse, if he does not die.

"Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.

I AM cavalry myself :rolleyes:"

The fact that you play cav is no more a point in your favour. You play cav only to legitimate your nerfing suggestions ; I don't think you enjoy playng cav. You are way too subjective when talking about horses.

"Well, they aren't supposed to be the battering rams any more. They have to rely on the infantry to disctract the enemy, and then pick out single enemies from the duels everywhere. Already now this is the best use for cavalry, anyway!"

I suppose you are talking about light cav. Heavy cav's job is to open ennemy lines for their infantry to rush in. So yes, they are supposed to be battering rams.

Sorry for the crapy quotes, I need to get used to the new quote system...

But well, my point is that cav is already fine as it is. It has been nerfed enough.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 11, 2011, 01:06:00 pm: Well, many people told me that cav was fine as it currently was, but then chadz nerfed them by increasing their price massively. This was a nerf into the wrong direction, I think, but basically we agreed that cav needed a nerf.

I see that too many players are still stuck to the imagination of cavalry how it was pre patch: riding constantly around or even between the lines of the enemy stabbing left and right, killing everyone who seperates a bit and doesn't look into the right direction.

Riding must become more of hunting, which requires patience and correct timing. Otherwise it will always stay more effective than other classes (= OP)
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: UrLukur on January 11, 2011, 04:19:59 pm: Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Lowered HP for Light Horses?
Maybe you haven't noticed but any horse under Destrier (~90 hitpoints) dies in:

2 Francisca's
2 Light crossbow bolts
2 - 3 Arrows
1 Jarid
1 Throwing lance
1 Heavy crossbow bolt

I feel all damage need some kind of nerf, but on the other hand hits need to count. One of the easiest solution would be changing soak and something values in module.ini or whatever it was called. Damage is now one plain number and one type. Then, the value is reduced by some plain number, then reduced value is reduced by some percentage. I feel that the first kind of reduction need to be decreased across the board and the second number need to be increased across the board. This will lead to less bouncing off and less one hit kills. Also this will make horses more less vulnerable to shooting in general.

Second thing that need to be adjusted is some kind of nerf for both throwing and xbows, after last patch i feel archery need to be again nerfed a bit.

Also, as rider of the light horse can one hit kill people, why he feel that he should be allowed to make mistakes ? It screams double standards. I feel that lances need general reduction of damage across the board.

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Every other player now has ranged. x50 - 60 players you have a shitstorm flying your way every time they see you.

As ranged is the only reliable counter to cavalry, why shouldn't they go ranged ? On a serious note, ranged is too good in the mod, and in the game. All ranged should be 2 stage, like xbow, and speed of ranged need to be toned down (at least it's true for xbows and archers now).

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Zero Tolerance for Mistakes?
Cavalry build relies on his horse as his primary weapon. There is already no tolerance for any mistake, if you get close to the enemy crowd and they see you == death. 1 Projectile hits your horse and that's it. There is no tolerance for any mistakes, please try playing cav sometime.

No it don't. Cavalry guys do just fine without their horses. If cav is stupid enough to go alone into enemy line, its HIS FAULT. If infantry do the same, it's also DEAD, same for archers. Why do you want cav to be special ?

I've seen horses take way more than 1 projectile, even 2 ridding horses. In some cases it's 1 in some it's 5.

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am

Make cavalry obtainable by infantry and archers?
In other words, make horses shitty useless items who everyone has but rarely uses because they get them killed.
Cavalry is supposed to be rare and expensive, everyone and their brother riding around on horses just like now is little different than native circle stab.

Cavalry need to be rare, and should require skill to use. Weak cavalry should be dead cavalry.

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am

Available for everyone not only for grinders?
Again maybe you haven't noticed but the new money/xp system allows people to make ~10k/hour when wearing mid tier armor. There is no grind in obtaining high tier equipment/horses anymore.

Not anymore?
Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Nothing more than a useful helper?
Don't you think that's a little bit bias? Might as well say: lets remove horses and replace them with donkeys and mules. (I'm sure chadz wouldn't mind)

Cavalry atm is downright broken, the nerf will not change it.

Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Bumpkills are unfair? Did nothing more than pressed W?
Maybe you have not noticed, but the bump damage has been halved, there are very few heavy horses, horses barely kill anyone by trampling them.

Unfair? Nothing more than pressed W?

It is totally unfair that you did not/could not move when you saw a two ton beast was rumbling in your direction, how sad it ran u over and it hurt.

As infantry you have another two keys A and D, try to use them sometime. Also there are long sharp sticks called pikes, everyone has one now, I suggest you too give them a try.

Have you tried dodging horse with some maneuverability. It's not easy. Cav can bump then stab or slash to get easy kills.

It's good that just bump kills are rare now.

Pointy stick sucks against good cav, 1 vs 1, in clusterfuck they sucks too.
Quote from: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 01:28:57 am
Horse is dead rider still alive?
Obviously you are not a cav player lol. 9 out of 10 times when your horse dies there will be a mob of infantry bashing away at your scull and stabbing you in the butt with their sticks, or an archer/crossbowman/thrower throwing sending in projectiles to finish the job, or the cav that just dehorsed you pulling in a couch/stab/bumpslash to finish the job while you are tasting the dirt.

9 out of 10 times when the rider looses his horse he also looses his life.

It's because the cav in question sucks. And organisation of his team sucks. Besides 9/10 is total bull.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Welcome_To_Hell on January 11, 2011, 04:23:18 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on January 11, 2011, 01:06:00 pm
Riding must become more of hunting, which requires patience and correct timing. Otherwise it will always stay more effective than other classes (= OP)

...

I cannot explain a fish that it is wet. I cannot explain close-minded infantry why cavalry is not OP.

Quote from: Goralion on January 11, 2011, 11:24:22 am
Quote from: Joker86 on January 11, 2011, 01:47:46 am
I AM cavalry myself :rolleyes:

The fact that you play cav is no more a point in your favour. You play cav only to legitimate your nerfing suggestions ; I don't think you enjoy playng cav. You are way too subjective when talking about horses.

That is exactly what I thought. Way too steep and bias.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: PhantomZero on January 11, 2011, 05:23:21 pm: Quote from: Joker86 on January 11, 2011, 01:06:00 pm
I see that too many players are still stuck to the imagination of cavalry how it was pre patch: riding constantly around or even between the lines of the enemy stabbing left and right, killing everyone who seperates a bit and doesn't look into the right direction.

This is literally what the purpose of cavalry has been since before Jesus was born. Great thread Joker86, it sure gave me a laugh! :lol:

What is the purpose of cavalry? To run down undisciplined peasants and provide a shock strike with a charge. Is it not enough already that 1/5th of maps make cavalry useless as it is?
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Atom_Soldat on January 11, 2011, 06:14:12 pm: I don't see any problem at all with these new changes.
Personally i enjoy playing cavalry even more than before,
with the increased risk and all. I find them adequate and
see them as great contributions to the overall gameplay.

irony-mode off
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Stabby_Dave on January 12, 2011, 12:55:20 am: Quote from: Joker86 on January 11, 2011, 01:06:00 pm
Well, many people told me that cav was fine as it currently was, but then chadz nerfed them by increasing their price massively. This was a nerf into the wrong direction, I think, but basically we agreed that cav needed a nerf.

I see that too many players are still stuck to the imagination of cavalry how it was pre patch: riding constantly around or even between the lines of the enemy stabbing left and right, killing everyone who seperates a bit and doesn't look into the right direction.

Riding must become more of hunting, which requires patience and correct timing. Otherwise it will always stay more effective than other classes (= OP)

TBH, if cav has to be nerfed, i'd prefer yours over the price increase we just experienced. With your nerfs, the class is still valid but less effective. With price increase, they are just as effective but only usable maybe 50% of the time.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: AlexandertheGreat on January 12, 2011, 06:19:40 am: Try wasting riding and horse archery skill points, there's 8 skills right there, now add in the 1000+ gold cost to repair most good horses. Q_Q more.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Magikarp on January 12, 2011, 11:03:51 am: IF anything at all, horses should be cheaper (light horses that is).

It's fine that they made them a little bit less powerful and more expensive, but its too much of an increase imo.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Ujin on January 12, 2011, 11:23:17 am: Quote from: Magikarp on January 12, 2011, 11:03:51 am
IF anything at all, horses should be cheaper (light horses that is).

It's fine that they made them a little bit less powerful and more expensive, but its too much of an increase imo.

This. Topic should be closed now, there's been enough "balancing" and light cavalry suffered the most, even though it didn't deserve it. Some slight prices changes and it'll be fine.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Roran Hawkins on January 14, 2011, 06:12:22 pm: The only people that suffered y the cav nerfs, are light cav.

Due to the patch, I can't go in my prepatch armour againw ithout grinding some hours.
ALL LIGHT HORSES COST MORE THEN GOOD WEAPONS NOW compare bec with a sumpter horse (bec 7k, sumpter "Pony" horse 8.7k)
If I have to upkeep my rouncey too, I will have to ride in leather armour, if I want to earn money.
Horses have been nerfed stat-wise too, they lost lots of speed, and are now like walking targets.
The common cavhate from prepatch whiners also improves this, everyone kills horsemen first, who now are shooting ranges, as said before.

The patch has been worse then I feared. I feared all horses would be nerfed done, upkeep would deny acces to heavy horses while using any kid of decent armourdenies acces to every horse with any decent armour, charge damage would be massivly decreased,done I hoped for a small, maybe even medium decrease, wich was needed

I lose 1-2k per round when playing cavalry, me getting 2 shotted by most low/mediumlevel archers, and my horse getting 1-2 shotted by practically everything.
some other whine tactics, agaiunst horses:
horses should take damage evry time they bump someone, they have weapons right?
MAYBE USE THE FUCKING WEAPON IN URE HANDS THEN INSTEAD OF WHINING :rolleyes:

And the best part is, nothing is going to change, everyone on cRPG likes this.
HURRAH! ALL HORIES NERFED! chadz HAS LISTENED TO THE SKILLED PEOPLE! THE ONES IN FULL PLATE WHO USED TO SPAM AROUND BATTLEFIELD WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF AWARENESS
=> like that, or sort of at least

everyone LOVES the patch, but the "w" pressing panzerhorse noobs haven't been nerfed. No, tehy get extra cash from their strat fiefs, wich makes them able to use their panzerhorses still.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 16, 2011, 03:49:51 pm: Quote from: bruce on January 09, 2011, 04:12:23 pm
Your argument is fail. The reason is simple - the class which needs teamwork to be taken down and can take down other classes without teamwork is a OP class (since it IS more powerful then the classes which don't need teamwork to be taken down, and hence is overpowered compared to them). While riding around on a horse backstabbing people IS fun, it definitely is not for the people who're trying to melee and have to somehow simultaneously melee and fend cavalry off at the same time. So it is, in my view, balanced if horses die more easily to pikes/spears/etc, because getting piked/speared is a screwup you should pay dearly for.

If you've ever played any Battle Field games you know you're wrong.

It's a team game so saying that a class is OP because you need to use TEAMWORK to kill it doesn't make sense.
Cav are easy, especially now that they can charge you and you don't even get hurt thanks for the nerf hope everyone stops crying now.

If cav are OP in CRPG then in Bad Company 2 I'm guessing you'd think Tanks & blackhawk choppers to be pretty OP too, until you realize how easy it is to spot out one and tell the rest of your team, then an engineer on your team hits it with a homing rocket and it dies.

End of debate, team work is how you play team oriented games make a death match server for CRPG and then we can complain how OP Cav are, but even then I bet the whole death match server would target this cav guy as soon as they saw him unless they're idiots and don't realize the threat cavalry is.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: LordRichrich on January 16, 2011, 04:05:15 pm: You want to lower horse health MORE?!
My palfrey gets two-shotted by archers
Horses aren't op anyway. Most people die from horses because they aren't aware or they get ganged up on. Stick in a group, be aware and un nerf horses :'(
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 16, 2011, 04:15:00 pm: Quote from: Memento_Mori on January 16, 2011, 03:49:51 pm
It's a team game so saying that a class is OP because you need to use TEAMWORK to kill it doesn't make sense.
Cav are easy, especially now that they can charge you and you don't even get hurt thanks for the nerf hope everyone stops crying now.

If cav are OP in CRPG then in Bad Company 2 I'm guessing you'd think Tanks & blackhawk choppers to be pretty OP too, until you realize how easy it is to spot out one and tell the rest of your team, then an engineer on your team hits it with a homing rocket and it dies.

I think you mix something up there.

There is this teamwork where one class does its job, and another class does another job, and you use teamchat or voice to coordinate your teamwork, and to inform other players where there is "work to do" for them. E.g. telling the engineer about a vehicle.

But there is the other "teamwork is needed" where you need two or more players to gang upon a single opponent, to get along with him. This just can't be, because why should anyone play any other class than this, which needs SEVERAL enemies to be taken down?

It's okay if the paper tells the rock "Help! I see siccors over there!", but it's not okay if the paper says: "Hey, rock! Hey, siccors! There is a laserblaster over there! I will wrap it, siccors you cut it and rock you smash it. But hurry, before it melts us all!".

Where would be the point in playing anything else than the laserblaster? And those laserblasters need to be eliminated.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: EponiCo on January 16, 2011, 04:36:09 pm: Quote from: Memento_Mori on January 16, 2011, 03:49:51 pm

If you've ever played any Battle Field games you know you're wrong.

It's a team game so saying that a class is OP because you need to use TEAMWORK to kill it doesn't make sense.
Cav are easy, especially now that they can charge you and you don't even get hurt thanks for the nerf hope everyone stops crying now.

If cav are OP in CRPG then in Bad Company 2 I'm guessing you'd think Tanks & blackhawk choppers to be pretty OP too, until you realize how easy it is to spot out one and tell the rest of your team, then an engineer on your team hits it with a homing rocket and it dies.

End of debate, team work is how you play team oriented games make a death match server for CRPG and then we can complain how OP Cav are, but even then I bet the whole death match server would target this cav guy as soon as they saw him unless they're idiots and don't realize the threat cavalry is.

Helicopters and tanks are limited though. And yet, you have queues of noobies idling around on the vehicle respawn. In cRPG anyone can get a horse, and as long as that doesn't have a drawback everyone is sooner or later having it. Besides, you are comparing cRPG to a game where everyone carries a ranged weapon ... oh, wait.
It's so easy to go on about how easy to stop someone is with awareness, when he can just wait outside of your range and come in when everyone is engaged.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 16, 2011, 04:53:27 pm: uhm....

If you have on your team anyone with a pike or anyone with ranged weapons
you should have no problem vs cavalry
especially now that they can't even bump kill you effectively lol.

it's a team game, you need team work to win, just coz a guy has a horse on the opponents team doesn't mean you're going to lose.

I'll restate what I said again

Play any other team oriented game (battle field games are really good)
Tanks and Helicopters have laser sights and homiing rockets and all these goodies that make them pwn every other class in the game super easy... So how do we beat them?

TEAM WORK.

if the enemy team has MORE horses than you that means you have an advantage somewhere as well, you're not constantly at a disadvantage, USE your ADVANTAGE, and DON'T let them FORCE you into a DISADVANTAGE.

1 pike man can kill a cav
1 thrower can kill a cav

whats the problems, it's even easier if your team mates are helping out their pike guys and ranged guys.

CRPG needs more team work.

"But there is the other "teamwork is needed" where you need two or more players to gang upon a single opponent, to get along with him. This just can't be, because why should anyone play any other class than this, which needs SEVERAL enemies to be taken down?"
quote from Joker86, (I fail at using forum tools and stuff don't laugh at me)

This I agree with but again I have the same answer, Pike man versus Cav the Pike guy has a very good chance of winning.
so again, team work is the answer.

Remember if they have 10 cavalry and you only have 5 that means you have 5 more either Infantry, Archers, or Throwers
(Assuming that the match is balanced by player numbers) & usually the team with more cav has less players.

Also..... There are INFANTRY PLAYERS that are SKILLED enough that if you don't make any plans to take them out early in the game then you will lose, guaranteed, some of these skilled players can take 2-3 guys at once easily.

These skilled infantry players also somehow get their mobs to follow, and yes to kill them you usually need 2+ members of your team to be on them at once.

I find these players far more challenging and threatening when on the opponents team because even if you do kill them early they've already led their entire infantry team to one point on the map.

IMO Some players are OP because they're good at what they do & are known for it, once you realize someone on your team has 20+ kills and 3 deaths you tend to follow them as opposed to any other of the nameless fellows around you.

Cav serve there purpose as Cav, someone excellent at mounted combat will seem OP definitely but pit him agaisnt a good infantry and then we'll see, that's what I love about this game there's very rare points where you win everytime or lose everytime because the balance is in the hands of the player, I once read that Shielders counter Archers and 2h Counters Shielders, yet I'm a 2h and die frequently to players Good with their shielder class and find them far more threatening than a Good 2h user or Pole user I also die to them, archers and to cav.

I chose the name Memento Mori because I believe that it fits this game perfectly, "Remember Death" "Remember Mortality"
Everyone dies at some point to something even the cav you're saying that are OP.

Sorry if I have made no sense whatsoever lol just a friendly rant
basically already said all this stuff but I just made it a wall of text now . xD
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 16, 2011, 04:57:33 pm: Quote from: EponiCo on January 16, 2011, 04:36:09 pm
Helicopters and tanks are limited though. And yet, you have queues of noobies idling around on the vehicle respawn. In cRPG anyone can get a horse, and as long as that doesn't have a drawback everyone is sooner or later having it. Besides, you are comparing cRPG to a game where everyone carries a ranged weapon ... oh, wait.
It's so easy to go on about how easy to stop someone is with awareness, when he can just wait outside of your range and come in when everyone is engaged.

Yes Horses are not limited
But neither is anything else
Whats to stop the whole opponents team going Cav?
NOTHING
But
Whats to stop your entire team going PIKES, THROWING, XBOW, BOW, SPEAR, LONG 2h SWORD and WORKING TOGETHER TO STOP THEM
...
....
NOTHING.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Joker86 on January 16, 2011, 05:15:20 pm: One aspect of a good balance is the following one:

Classes have to be balanced BOTH for the average player AND for skilled players who achieved mastership in a class.

This means:

- even if played "perfectly" a class still has to remain balanced

AND

- a class has also to be belanced accordingly to the average player.

So if the average player doesn't really pay attention to cavalry (which is definitely right, I see people running right after spawning without looking to the left or right and being killed by cavalry 20 sec. after the map began), then both infantry and cavalry have to be balanced accordingly. This is sad somehow, but it's necessary, for the sake of public gameplay.

There is no use of a balance "on the paper", a theoretical balance, when in praxis the game is just broken.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 16, 2011, 06:08:29 pm: Right
Balance between Average player and those who've mastered their class already exists in this game.
even the masters die, did you not read my other post?
Even your OVERPOWER CAV die.

Why are you trying to fix something not broke.
Already the cav lost charge from their horse, they can only bump you, a kinda friendly "Hello, I'm a horse, watch out for me I was trying to kill you but I missed my bad I'll be back later most likely, if not I may have died to arrows or pikes because my health is so low and my armor is pretty terrible."

Average players will most likely lose to people who have mastered their class
This is balance.

They can still win, if they play smart and learn from their mistakes and then they eventually become masters them selves.

The only CAV that could possibly pose a real unstoppable threat was an armored HA, but those are seemingly useless now thanks to the patch.

New players playing any online game learn quickly they need to suck it up & learn or gtfo and stick with their single player.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: DrKronic on January 20, 2011, 05:43:53 pm: I actually miss the sight of horses on the field now feels different with no real armored horses ever for the most part and not even many regular horsies

I never was pro cav or really even interested in playing them but atill
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: UrLukur on January 20, 2011, 06:08:31 pm: Cav do fine, even after nerf. I constantly see cav players who top the scoreboard. Like i said before, problem lies in Heavy Lance, i feel that people should rather use Lance, so heavy need to be nerfed.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: justme on January 20, 2011, 06:56:52 pm: i saw many cav these days.. do they pay strenght penalty for the horses, like i pay for my sword? cause they need riding equipment, so they need to have must be havier..
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Beleidiger on January 20, 2011, 07:16:34 pm: Cav is fine and yes they got 1 more Item but 1 more Item means 1 more Item to repair i am right?

So that the Heavy Tank Horses dont show up most Time in the Game now and light cav is Beatable if you pay attention i think its fine!(OK i have two Chars and both can take out an light Cav with not more than 4 arrow-/Bolthits!)

Ehm 1 more thing ..isent it just me or have someone else the feeling that this Nerf and Buff Threads getting more and more!?Its not like i not Enjoy top write my Posts but 100 Threads with Nerf this Buff that, getting a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Attempt to balance cavalry overall
Post by: Roran Hawkins on January 20, 2011, 09:02:49 pm: Now the cav upkeep has been lowered I'm happy too. A good infantry player equals a good cavalry player now.