cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Glyph on May 16, 2011, 08:48:04 pm
-
i think that the balance between these is really redicules, just take a look at it!
Great Long Bardiche
price 13,705
weapon length: 155
weight: 3.8
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 87
weapon length: 155
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Flamberge
price 18,777
weapon length: 152
weight: 4
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 152
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Can't sheath
GLB has bonus against shields,
can be sheated,
is cheaper,
less weight,
better speed rating and
more range
Flamberge is balanced and
better thrust damage
i think the flamberge has to get buffed because mainly the shield bonus and because it can't be sheated.
think, post and disscus!
-
OR GLB needs to be nerfed?
-
Yep, i'll second Konrax, if you see a problem between thoses two weapons, then nerf the GLB, i think the flamberge is already pretty fine as it is.
-
no because then those weapons would be used even less and they aren't overused which is the reason for nerfing
-
They maybe arn't overused, but it's maybe not only because oftheir stats but because of their requirements in STR, that not anyone can afford with their chosen build. And i still see some flamberge users who are doing relatively good, using the great range of the flamberge.
It's not because a top tier, thus very important upkeep item, is not so used, that you have to buffed it so that everyone uses it. If you have one and can't use it well, sell it and find another weapon, don't call for a "look at the difference, what shall we do ? Nerfing the GLB is ofc unacceptable, what shall we do then ?" topic.
And the unbalanced is a pretty hard malus btw.
-
What about nerfing it for balance sake?
-
i never said the buff should get a mayor buff maybe just +1 speed rating or 2 damage.
-
Don't buff the Flamberge, but make it cheaper. If you nerf the GLB more, everyone who uses it will switch to the GLA.
-
Hmn u cant feint with the GLB ? while u can with the flamberge??
I think thats the whole point but i dunno the price tag on that flameberg is insane....
-
Just don't nerf anything. Everything's fine at the moment..
-
The GLB is unbalanced, which is why very few people use it.
If you have the slightest idea of how to feint and block, you should not use an unbalanced weapon.
Unbalance = huge disadvantage. Especially coupled with a slow weapon.
If I could chose between the two weapons I'd chose to use the flameberg, hands down. For reference I have 20 str and 154 in Polearm skill and use GLA, Elegant Poleaxe or Glaive, depending on my situation.
-
Oh god don't do anything more to nerf my precious long weapons.
-
i didn't ask to nerf anything, maybe just a buff
-
Yesterday, in DTV, a peasant survived a flamberge hit... :(
Old times are really gone.
-
i didn't ask to nerf anything, maybe just a buff
That's exactly what we're reproaching you, asking a buff for a weapon which is already fine as it is.
Funny how some people can't stop but asking for minor buffs, saying that a little +1 speed won't unbalanced the game. If that's the case, why not adding a little -1 speed to the flamberge, since it won't unbalanced the game ?
Stop randomly asking for weapons buff without good backup. If i'm not mistaken, you're also responsible for the "sheathable flamberge" topic, wich also gets a big no from many. If you want a faster weapon, who is sheatable, then there's already plenty around. -_-
-
That's exactly what we're reproaching you, asking a buff for a weapon which is already fine as it is.
Funny how some people can't stop but asking for minor buffs, saying that a little +1 speed won't unbalanced the game. If that's the case, why not adding a little -1 speed to the flamberge, since it won't unbalanced the game ?
Stop randomly asking for weapons buff without good backup. If i'm not mistaken, you're also responsible for the "sheathable flamberge" topic, wich also gets a big no from many. If you want a faster weapon, who is sheatable, then there's already plenty around. -_-
you think this is fine?
Yesterday, in DTV, a peasant survived a flamberge hit... :(
Old times are really gone.
beacuse i don't
-
A noob friend of mine started the game (pre-patch) and as soon as he could he picked up a flamberge (and a barmace, but that is another story) and he was suddenly ranking in the top of the scoreboard laughing at my advice on manual blocking and footwork :?
Personally, I would be fine with the flamberge being more powerful (I rarely use it actually, so I don't really care) but I would see it even slower. It should be damn difficult to use to remain exceptional.
-
This is not a problem of the flamberge, but a general spam-problem. It's currently too easy to reach a good rank in the scoreboard by applying mindless spam and NEVER clicking the right mousebutton. The flamberge is just a good tool for this "tactic", because it hits hard and is long.
-
Would any1 like to make a list of the other unbalanced weapons and compare them to similar weapons so we can see the bigger picture?
-
you think this is fine?beacuse i don't
LOL ! Trying to "balance" flamberge stating that you can't os a DTV DTV DTV DTV peasant with it. I thought you were speaking of balancing battle server dude ?
Sorry guy, but DTV bots are tough. Even though i saw people easily onehitting peasants with their flamberge. Maybe La Makina one's only has 4 PS or something.
And for the fun : http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5975.0.html
Yes, flamberge is so under rated, that we see the same guy asking for :
-a flamberge build
-a flamberge buff
-a sheathable flamberge
humm... omg
What i see here, is definitely not a guy asking for balance, but a player asking for a buff for his own weapon for his own purpose !
@RandomDude, can do that, but what stats do you want to compare with the unbalanced weapon ? Handing in a list of all unbalanced weapons and top 5 most expensive melee weapons in each category will maybe do it.
-
i started a topic about arbelast, Flamberge, goedendag, longbow and many more so not for my own purpose :o
and i ask for a lot of builds, arbelast, longbow, flamberge, 2hander, onehanded with shield, polearm build and a pure str archer and more and i only have one char where i play on...
-
I use GLB exclusively, and I have loomed it up to Powerful so far. It is a very situational weapon, moreso than the flamberge:
1v1 against pretty much anyone that can block, I lose.
1v1 against a shielder with any semblance of facehugging skills, I lose.
Standing on top of a ladder/ramp in siege defense, I've gotten 15+ kills in a round
Free-for-all situations (i.e. around a flag), I can go around 1-shotting enemies that are engaged with my allies
But the fact that it it's slow as dirt and can't feint means that I lose almost every 1v1 fight. The flamberge can actually be an OK dueling weapon, since you can feint.
Also, it's worth noting that the regular Long Bardiche is way more OP than the Great Long Bardiche. It isn't unbalanced, does only 1 less damage, and is 2 speed faster, while still having very good reach.
-
but i think that if you can't manual block good, you shouldn't use weapons like that at all. i can manual block usually around 8-12 times in a 1vs1 fight before losing my focus and that's long enough to get killed or kill about 95% of the time. so my advice to new 2handed players is first go in dueling server for a few days and try to learn chamber-blocking and stuf and diside what weapon fits you best.
-
but i think that if you can't manual block good, you shouldn't use weapons like that at all. i can manual block usually around 8-12 times in a 1vs1 fight before losing my focus and that's long enough to get killed or kill about 95% of the time. so my advice to new 2handed players is first go in dueling server for a few days and try to learn chamber-blocking and stuf and diside what weapon fits you best.
No, if you can't manual block and don't want to bring a shield, your best option is a long weapon. If you bring a short weapon, you usually have to perform a successful block before you get to swing. At least with long weapons, you can open with an attack instead of a block. The downside to long SLOW weapons like the Flam and GLB is that if your first swing is blocked, you are basically dead meat because you don't have a chance to regain initiative for the rest of the fight.
-
LOL ! Trying to "balance" flamberge stating that you can't os a DTV DTV DTV DTV peasant with it. I thought you were speaking of balancing battle server dude ?
Sorry guy, but DTV bots are tough. Even though i saw people easily onehitting peasants with their flamberge. Maybe La Makina one's only has 4 PS or something.
And for the fun : http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5975.0.html
Yes, flamberge is so under rated, that we see the same guy asking for :
-a flamberge build
-a flamberge buff
-a sheathable flamberge
humm... omg
What i see here, is definitely not a guy asking for balance, but a player asking for a buff for his own weapon for his own purpose !
@RandomDude, can do that, but what stats do you want to compare with the unbalanced weapon ? Handing in a list of all unbalanced weapons and top 5 most expensive melee weapons in each category will maybe do it.
I meant for comparison with similar weapons - like the OP has compared flamberge with great long bardiche
-
i'm to lazy... :D
-
I have use GLB exclusively, and I have loomed it up to Powerful so far. It is a very situational weapon, moreso than the flamberge:
1v1 against pretty much anyone that can block, I lose.
1v1 against a shielder with any semblance of facehugging skills, I lose.
Standing on top of a ladder/ramp in siege defense, I've gotten 15+ kills in a round
Free-for-all situations (i.e. around a flag), I can go around 1-shotting enemies that are engaged with my allies
But the fact that it it's slow as dirt and can't feint means that I lose almost every 1v1 fight. The flamberge can actually be an OK dueling weapon, since you can feint.
Also, it's worth noting that the regular Long Bardiche is way more OP than the Great Long Bardiche. It isn't unbalanced, does only 1 less damage, and is 2 speed faster, while still having very good reach.
I agree 100%. If I can't block the first hit, I either get spammed, or stunned, or shot..
..
In other words I am vulnerable when I get blocked :(
-
People rag on me because I can't block for crap, but there really isn't a compelling reason to try to block with the GLB. If I try to open a fight with a block of my opponents swing, then it's a certain loss because the GLB is so slow that my opponent will hit me before my counter-attack can land. My only chance to to spaz out like a lunatic swinging my GLB from a distance hoping one of the swings lands. That puts my opponent on the defensive, which is how the long slow weapons are meant to be used.
Some people call this tactic "spamming", but there is honestly no other viable tactic for the GLB. If I tried to feint and riposte like some ninja duel master, I'd just get my ass kicked every time, because my weapon is too slow for those tactics.
The flamberge is a different beast altogether, since you can mix feints into your spam. The value of this cannot be over-stated. When I see my opponent is about to block my swing with my GLB, I might as well go to the equipment screen and set my loadout for when I respawn, because I know I'm dead.
-
People rag on me because I can't block for crap, but there really isn't a compelling reason to try to block with the GLB. If I try to open a fight with a block of my opponents swing, then it's a certain loss because the GLB is so slow that my opponent will hit me before my counter-attack can land. My only chance to to spaz out like a lunatic swinging my GLB from a distance hoping one of the swings lands. That puts my opponent on the defensive, which is how the long slow weapons are meant to be used.
Some people call this tactic "spamming", but there is honestly no other viable tactic for the GLB. If I tried to feint and riposte like some ninja duel master, I'd just get my ass kicked every time, because my weapon is too slow for those tactics.
The flamberge is a different beast altogether, since you can mix feints into your spam. The value of this cannot be over-stated. When I see my opponent is about to block my swing with my GLB, I might as well go to the equipment screen and set my loadout for when I respawn, because I know I'm dead.
Well as a long time flamberge user I can say that how you use your GLB sounds very much how I use the flam. Most players are so good now that even the "Akmar" doesnt work. It used to work 90% of the time and now it works 10% of the time.
Flamberge is slow and I dont care how many people say I can spam it fast, I can spam another sword faster.
So now I try to use range (backpedalling) where I used to use footwork more. I dont think i've outmanouvered a 1h since I started playing again and I used to do it all the time. It might be because Im not on my old comp but I think players are definately better over-all now.
Also i think 99% of my kills come from killing a guy fighting a team mate. Whether from behind, the side or my own lil flamberge technique that I dont want to type in case I see it used more.
-
Yeah RandomDude, I hear ya. The Flam and GLB are meant for killing people that are engaged with teammates. They both are awful for dueling, with the Flam being slightly better since you can feint and your thrust attack is less pathetic. Then again, the GLB breaks shields, so I guess it evens out.
Really, these are 'style' weapons first and foremost.
-
Disregarding footwork, if you block your opponent's attack and attack as soon as you can afterwards, your opponent can never hit before you do. No matter the weapon speed.
-
untrue, so than you suggest you can never feint either?! if you have a wakaz...thing vs a flamberge you can. but that doesn't happen a lot because of footwork.
-
I think a lot of people dont realize that GLB is a polearm. Yes, a polearm. That means that the polearm animation is being used on the GLB. Some of you may be ignorant bastards who havent payed attention to this, but the polearm animation removes about 20 length on a weapon. The weight and speed difference on these 2 are negligible, through I have heard that the 2 hand animation is faster than the polearm one, though I am not sure about this.
Great Long Bardiche
price 13,705
weapon length: 155 (135 effective)
weight: 3.8
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 87
weapon length: 155 (135 effective)
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Flamberge
price 18,777
weapon length: 152
weight: 4
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 152
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Can't sheath
So as we can see we have the differences: flamberge costs more, flamberge is 20 longer (a lot), GLB has bonus against shield, and the GLB is unbalanced which makes it impossible to duel with.
-
is unbalanced which makes it impossible to duel with.
I very much beg to differ. Much harder? Yes. Impossible? No.
-
I think a lot of people dont realize that GLB is a polearm. Yes, a polearm. That means that the polearm animation is being used on the GLB. Some of you may be ignorant bastards who havent payed attention to this, but the polearm animation removes about 20 length on a weapon. The weight and speed difference on these 2 are negligible, through I have heard that the 2 hand animation is faster than the polearm one, though I am not sure about this.
Great Long Bardiche
price 13,705
weapon length: 155 (135 effective)
weight: 3.8
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 87
weapon length: 155 (135 effective)
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Flamberge
price 18,777
weapon length: 152
weight: 4
difficulty: 18
speed rating: 86
weapon length: 152
thrust damage: 24 pierce
swing damage: 46 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Can't sheath
So as we can see we have the differences: flamberge costs more, flamberge is 20 longer (a lot), GLB has bonus against shield, and the GLB is unbalanced which makes it impossible to duel with.
nub, flamberge also uses polearm animations :!:
-
Wow, I didnt know that Berethorn. So its impossible to do a overhead stab with a flamberge?
-
yeah, and don't talk about something when you don't know a thing about it :wink:
-
Wow, I didnt know that Berethorn. So its impossible to do a overhead stab with a flamberge?
Overhead stab?
Wtf is an overhead stab?
EDIT: O i get ya - the normal 2h stab animation. Yeah flamberge only has the polearm thrust.
Flamberge uses polearm animations so it swings/stabs the same way as a polearm. It just uses 2h wpf.
-
Nice to know for everyone too, since then flamberge isnt really that long, its only 132 length (or even less since I dont know if polearm animation cuts 20 length, I guess its a percentage) And the danish greatsword has 124 length, which then is not that much less. It should really say on the flamberge on the buy weapons screen that it uses polearm animation, since people can be fooled.
-
Afaik, only the stab animation results in a shorter length for polearms, not the swings...at least to me it seems that the flamberge and poles like the glaive have MUCH longer swings than a greatsword.
-
The Flamberge right swing uses the 2h animation. That's why you see Flamberge users spamming it 90% of the time.
-
I see...but what about regular polearm swings compared to greatswords? Do the 160cm vs 120cm really apply, or do you have to subtract some of those 160?
-
I see...but what about regular polearm swings compared to greatswords? Do the 160cm vs 120cm really apply, or do you have to subtract some of those 160?
Someone made a tablet of this, can't find it tho :/
But yes, polearm animations cut length compared to the 2h.
-
1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61
2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80
2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19
1h Polearms
Thrust = +50
Edit: 2h thrust might not be accurate anymore, what with the new animation. According to waltf4 it's pretty close though.
-
1h
Overhead = +0
Left-to-right = +0
Right-to-left = +19
Thrust = +61
2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80
2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19
1h Polearms
Thrust = +50
Sticky in begginer thread or something :lol:
-
I've posted that in the beginner forum before. A search for animations will quickly find a thread with those values.
-
Hmm nice to know. It always felt like there wasnt much room for error in a "range" match vs another 2h handed weapon.
-
Where did that data come from? Is it even for warband?
-
Disregarding footwork, if you block your opponent's attack and attack as soon as you can afterwards, your opponent can never hit before you do. No matter the weapon speed.
This is false. I was dueling an Agility-stacking Katana-wielder with my GLB (30/9 build), and every time I would block him, I would IMMEDIATELY follow up with my own swing, but he would hit me with his next attack before my swing even came close to landing. Frustrating to say the least.
-
This is false. I was dueling an Agility-stacking Katana-wielder with my GLB (30/9 build), and every time I would block him, I would IMMEDIATELY follow up with my own swing, but he would hit me with his next attack before my swing even came close to landing. Frustrating to say the least.
lol. But, that's to be expected, right ? And to counter him with your GLB, you just have to use footwork to make his low-PS katana bounce off your heavy armor, all this whilke launching your own attack. He will be the one frustrated.
On a side note, ALL chambered attacks will hit before the unlucky guy attacks again.
-
On a side note, ALL chambered attacks will hit before the unlucky guy attacks again.
The terminology people use in this game can be so ambiguous. Obviously I can't deliver a "chambered" swing right after I block, because I just blocked, so I can't be holding a chambered swing. Now, maybe you are talking about "chamber blocks" aka "ripostes", which I seem to only ever pull off accidentally. I could never rely on them as a tactic.
I got no problem with the Agi-ninjas dicing me up with their katanas, because it takes them like 6 swings to kill me, and I can kill them in one. It's just embarrassing being totally helpless like that.
With regard to your footwork comment, rushing in to the ninjas face to induce more bounces is suicide, since my GLB is useless at pointe blank (a long polearm bounces more than a short sword at zero range, regardless of power strike).
-
The terminology people use in this game can be so ambiguous. Obviously I can't deliver a "chambered" swing right after I block, because I just blocked, so I can't be holding a chambered swing. Now, maybe you are talking about "chamber blocks" aka "ripostes", which I seem to only ever pull off accidentally. I could never rely on them as a tactic.
I got no problem with the Agi-ninjas dicing me up with their katanas, because it takes them like 6 swings to kill me, and I can kill them in one. It's just embarrassing being totally helpless like that.
With regard to your footwork comment, rushing in to the ninjas face to induce more bounces is suicide, since my GLB is useless at pointe blank (a long polearm bounces more than a short sword at zero range, regardless of power strike).
You must do overhead strikes in close combat.
-
I think GLB needs a damage buff.
Just look at both flamberge and GLB which would scare you shitless and seperate your body apart when someone slashes you ?
-
Hmn i dont agree :)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
-
1-0 for tzar!